PWCC Statement on Recent Card Trimming Concerns

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Oh here we go...i’m having flashbacks to reagans statements during the iran contra affair.

Infraction given for political comment. Please keep politics out of it.

[ullmandds]

So I suppose if I had stuck to denying that mass murders of children in schools never happened or that 911 was a conspiracy and it never happened I would not have received 3 minutes in the box?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

So I suppose if I had stuck to denying that mass murders of children in schools never happened or that 911 was a conspiracy and it never happened I would not have received 3 minutes in the box?

/

What happens to the Moser cards, and other altered cards, once they are uncovered and returned to PWCC (or PSA or whoever) for refund? Will they be destroyed? I mean its just an altered card, they're not forgeries or anything, and in some cases might be rare and still hold significant value, even as an altered card

[jason.1969]

For all the talk of legal vs illegal, the main takeaway for me from all of this is that I can't and won't trust anything in Brent's auctions ever again.

Jason Schwartz
Chicago, IL

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

What happens to the Moser cards, and other altered cards, once they are uncovered and returned to PWCC (or PSA or whoever) for refund? Will they be destroyed? I mean its just an altered card, they're not forgeries or anything, and in some cases might be rare and still hold significant value, even as an altered card

A bit altruistic, but I would hope it’s donated to a museum. Still eye candy at the end of the day. They could at least take a tax cut on the donation of their cost.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

A bit altruistic, but I would hope it’s donated to a museum. Still eye candy at the end of the day. They could at least take a tax cut on the donation of their cost.

I would hope they would use them to educate their graders.

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

What happens to the Moser cards, and other altered cards, once they are uncovered and returned to PWCC (or PSA or whoever) for refund? Will they be destroyed? I mean its just an altered card, they're not forgeries or anything, and in some cases might be rare and still hold significant value, even as an altered card

Maybe they should all be put in pedigree holders. "Moser/PWCC Scandal-2019". Actually might fetch a premium in years to come, lol. Just look at the PSA 8 Wagner and it's history. Just the story behind it is more than likely to attract more potential bidders and higher bids the next time it is up for sale.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

What happens to the Moser cards, and other altered cards, once they are uncovered and returned to PWCC (or PSA or whoever) for refund? Will they be destroyed? I mean its just an altered card, they're not forgeries or anything, and in some cases might be rare and still hold significant value, even as an altered card

Good question. What if PSA makes good on these and labels them Authentic Altered? Does that really suffice? What's to keep someone from cracking it out and resubmitting it again hoping for a numerical grade? For those that believe PSA had no involvement, if it slipped by and they graded it once, what's to keep it from slipping by and getting graded again? That's of course if you really believe PSA is an innocent pawn in all this. I think they're part of the scam.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Good question. What if PSA makes good on these and labels them Authentic Altered? Does that really suffice? What's to keep someone from cracking it out and resubmitting it again hoping for a numerical grade? For those that believe PSA had no involvement, if it slipped by and they graded it once, what's to keep it from slipping by and getting graded again? That's of course if you really believe PSA is an innocent pawn in all this. I think they're part of the scam.

Given it’s a crisis of confidence, they should prevent cracking them for resubmission. Either donate or brand the cards.

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

What happens to the Moser cards, and other altered cards, once they are uncovered and returned to PWCC (or PSA or whoever) for refund? Will they be destroyed? I mean its just an altered card, they're not forgeries or anything, and in some cases might be rare and still hold significant value, even as an altered card

We will see them at auction again and again, just with new holders.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Good question. What if PSA makes good ....

When have you ever seen PSA make good on anything? Especially their written guarantee?

[vintagetoppsguy]

For those that bought as pure investment, they might not want to give up those cards. It would be a break even. What's to keep them from holding onto the cards a couple years for this to all blow over and then turning a profit?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would hope they would use them to educate their graders.

Yes, sort of like this
http://www.philatelicfoundation.org/...and-forgeries/

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

For those that bought as pure investment, they might not want to give up those cards. It would be a break even. What's to keep them from holding onto the cards a couple years for this to all blow over and then turning a profit?

It might blow over in a couple of weeks, knowing the history of this hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

When have you ever seen PSA make good on anything? Especially their written guarantee?

The reserve is based on prior experience so clearly they have bought back some volume of cards. But what we don't see is the volume of requests denied.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The reserve is based on prior experience so clearly they have bought back some volume of cards. But what we don't see is the volume of requests denied.

They fight everyone to the death unless they are sued or have their arms twisted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

They fight everyone to the death unless they are sued or have their arms twisted.

Just fulfilling their duty to shareholders to maximize the bottom line.

[jsanz]

After reading all of this I have a concern that I have not seen anyone address. What happens if/when people stop trusting PSA as THE grading company? That is where everyone with a PSA slabbed card will take a hit. Lets just say even a small amount of people start second guessing PSA cards. That might be a few less bidders on your items or maybe your buy it now listing does not sell at the price you want. That is where the real damage can occur. Think about if the value of PSA slabbed cards just drops a little bit over this situation. That could be millions in lost value in small increments. This effect can go way beyond the altered cards in question.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by jsanz

After reading all of this I have a concern that I have not seen anyone address. What happens if/when people stop trusting PSA as THE grading company? That is where everyone with a PSA slabbed card will take a hit. Lets just say even a small amount of people start second guessing PSA cards. That might be a few less bidders on your items or maybe your buy it now listing does not sell at the price you want. That is where the real damage can occur. Think about if the value of PSA slabbed cards just drops a little bit over this situation. That could be millions in lost value in small increments. This effect can go way beyond the altered cards in question.

you mean like now as far as not trusting PSA????? i think most on here...I know I have..... thought about this very scenario.

[steve B]

You haven't already stopped trusting PSA?

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by jsanz

After reading all of this I have a concern that I have not seen anyone address. What happens if/when people stop trusting PSA as THE grading company? That is where everyone with a PSA slabbed card will take a hit. Lets just say even a small amount of people start second guessing PSA cards. That might be a few less bidders on your items or maybe your buy it now listing does not sell at the price you want. That is where the real damage can occur. Think about if the value of PSA slabbed cards just drops a little bit over this situation. That could be millions in lost value in small increments. This effect can go way beyond the altered cards in question.

Remember GAI? Exodus to SGC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Remember GAI? Exodus to SGC.

I thought Mike Baker was terrific, as good as they get. What happened there is really sad.

[MULLINS5]

PSA should regrade them "Authentic" and recoup whatever they can out of them through a sale. To avoid them coming back raw, they could scan each card and use as a reference. I know it's been discussed, for years, about using invisible ink of some kind on the card itself. Maybe now is the time to take that into serious consideration, again.

[swarmee]

The FDLE called me today to discuss my report. So you can be assured that law enforcement is looking into it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The reserve is based on prior experience so clearly they have bought back some volume of cards. But what we don't see is the volume of requests denied.

It's all in the stock-holder statement. Guarantee returns were around 600k last year if I recall correctly. The figure has been increasing steadily and quickly the last few years.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by steve B

You haven't already stopped trusting PSA?

Lol, right?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

[T]he main takeaway for me from all of this is that I can't and won't trust anything in Brent's auctions ever again.

Originally Posted by jsanz

This effect can go way beyond the altered cards in question.

This goes way beyond a PWCC auction. These cards have been filtered into the community over the past decade. They're in all of our collections right now, and most of us may never know which ones are good or bad. Period.

[BLongley]

FBI checking out PWCC

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1697

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Good question. What if PSA makes good on these and labels them Authentic Altered? Does that really suffice? What's to keep someone from cracking it out and resubmitting it again hoping for a numerical grade? For those that believe PSA had no involvement, if it slipped by and they graded it once, what's to keep it from slipping by and getting graded again? That's of course if you really believe PSA is an innocent pawn in all this. I think they're part of the scam.

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking yesterday. Unless PSA makes changes, then these cards will DEFINITELY be graded again.

[ullmandds]

the cards need to be either destroyed or somehow given a scarlet letter on the card itself that cant be removed.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by BLongley

FBI checking out PWCC

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1697

Fortunately there's still a link at the top of this homepage to "consign now" if you want to get your cards "prepared" for the next PWCC auction. Hurry up, kids. It may be their last!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Fortunately there's still a link at the top of this homepage to "consign now" if you want to get your cards "prepared" for the next PWCC auction. Hurry up, kids. It may be their last!

based on what is coming to light these dsys it would not surprise me in the least if most high profile "dealers" auction house owners, etc are well aware of what is and has been going on and are somehow intermingled in it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

the cards need to be either destroyed or somehow given a scarlet letter on the card itself that cant be removed.

I think one of the modern card companies should purchase them, cut them up and make relic card inserts for their 2020 products.

Those that could never afford a green Cobb could then own a piece of one.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

i think one of the modern card companies should purchase them, cut them up and make relic card inserts for their 2020 products. :d

those that could never afford a green cobb could then own a piece of one.

shhhhhh!!!! (lol)

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I think one of the modern card companies should purchase them, cut them up and make relic card inserts for their 2020 products.

Those that could never afford a green Cobb could then own a piece of one.

Actually that's one of the most interesting ideas you've had. If they're altered anyway it bothers me a lot less than cutting up a Ruth or Gehrig bat or something.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Good question. What if PSA makes good on these and labels them Authentic Altered? Does that really suffice? What's to keep someone from cracking it out and resubmitting it again hoping for a numerical grade? For those that believe PSA had no involvement, if it slipped by and they graded it once, what's to keep it from slipping by and getting graded again? That's of course if you really believe PSA is an innocent pawn in all this. I think they're part of the scam.

Maybe they can create a holder that will destroy the card if someone tries to crack it open...actually if they are to survive a return to PSA, Beckett or whoever would probably be for the best...

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

So I suppose if I had stuck to denying that mass murders of children in schools never happened or that 911 was a conspiracy and it never happened I would not have received 3 minutes in the box?

5 minutes for fighting.

We know that you meant Masto & Allen and not the political analogy

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by BLongley

FBI checking out PWCC

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1697

That's a good place to start. Sportscard Radio lays the scheme out perfectly.

Especially Brent Mastro's relationships with Steven "InstaTrimmer" Tormollan, Gary "Scissorhands" Moser and Robert "Fat Kid on the" Block.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

For those that bought as pure investment, they might not want to give up those cards. It would be a break even. What's to keep them from holding onto the cards a couple years for this to all blow over and then turning a profit?

That's the problem, once this thing cools off, the cards get redistributed back into the marketplace over time. Easier to spot now with the heat on. I hope one of the culpable parties is forced, by law or tort, to take these cards out of circulation now before they become harder to find.

[swarmee]

http://www.sportscardradio.com/alert...by-psa-or-bgs/
Cardboard carnage. Just keep scrolling.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

PSA should regrade them "Authentic" and recoup whatever they can out of them through a sale. To avoid them coming back raw, they could scan each card and use as a reference. I know it's been discussed, for years, about using invisible ink of some kind on the card itself. Maybe now is the time to take that into serious consideration, again.

If there's a seizure and court case, I assume they would be marked in some way. The PSA/DNA synthetic DNA would be good.

[swarmee]

Then they'd be sold raw.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Then they'd be sold raw.

When all the fake Rose RCs were discovered ('86?), weren't those allowed to be sold, but first all marked counterfeit?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I think one of the modern card companies should purchase them, cut them up and make relic card inserts for their 2020 products.

Those that could never afford a green Cobb could then own a piece of one.

thats actually a great idea!

[tschock]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Maybe they can create a holder that will destroy the card if someone tries to crack it open

This whole alteration scenario is playing out like a '60s TV show. ".... Should you or any of your team members be caught, PSA will disavow any knowledge of your involvement. This holder will self destruct in 10 seconds" cue music...

[swarmee]

There is absolutely no discussion on the PSA message board.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by swarmee

http://www.sportscardradio.com/alert...by-psa-or-bgs/
Cardboard carnage. Just keep scrolling.

Good reporting.... and the VAST majority are PSA.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

the cards need to be either destroyed or somehow given a scarlet letter on the card itself that cant be removed.

Maybe if we can get Brent involved he can devise a sticker for high-end altered cards.

BrianP(arker)-beme

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Maybe if we can get Brent involved he can devise a sticker for high-end altered cards.

BrianP(arker)-beme

pass!!!!!