Question regarding top cards on cellos -1979

[PM770]

I have been trying to collect 1979 Topps cello packs with the players with the All-Star designation on top.

I another thread I read that in 1978, Munson was never released on the top of a cello pack.

That makes me wonder if this is true for 1979. Are there cards that would not have been released as the top card on a cello pack?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by PM770

I have been trying to collect 1979 Topps cello packs with the players with the All-Star designation on top.

I another thread I read that in 1978, Munson was never released on the top of a cello pack.

That makes me wonder if this is true for 1979. Are there cards that would not have been released as the top card on a cello pack?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide.

In 1979 like in 1978 tops printed there cards in 6 different panels (sheets) the cards in each panel can be identified by the letters A,B,C,D,E,F, which
can be found in the back of each card next to the copyright symbol now the cello packs in 78 and 79 contain 2 sections separated by a piece of gum the top section should contain cards from panels D,E,F, only! and the bottom section should contain cards from panels A,B,C, only, in the case of Munson his card is from panel A so it should be in the bottom section only, all this is easy to verify,, if you go on EBAY and checked and analyze every cello sold and for sale you'll find that all those have only a card from panels D,E,F, showing you will never find a card from panels A,B,C, SHOWING ON TOP UNLESS IT IS A STAR
never a common

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by pepis

In 1979 like in 1978 tops printed there cards in 6 different panels (sheets) the cards in each panel can be identified by the letters A,B,C,D,E,F, which
can be found in the back of each card next to the copyright symbol now the cello packs in 78 and 79 contain 2 sections separated by a piece of gum the top section should contain cards from panels D,E,F, only! and the bottom section should contain cards from panels A,B,C, only, in the case of Munson his card is from panel A so it should be in the bottom section only, all this
is easy to verify,, if you go on EBAY and checked and analyze every cello sold and for sale has only a card from panels D,E,F, showing you will never
find a card from panels A,B,C, SHOWING ON TOP UNLESS IT IS A STAR
never a common

Jose, does D/E/F-on-Top and A/B/C-on-bottom apply to all years Topps produced cellos?

[pepis]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

Jose, does D/E/F-on-Top and A/B/C-on-bottom apply to all years Topps produced cellos?

It only does apply to the years going forward,,1978 is the 1st year that topps
used the letters A,B,C,D,E,F, to ID there panels, prior to 1978 for example in 1976 and 77 they used double asterisk (**) single asterisk (*) and no asterisk
(also next to the copyright} in conjunction with the cards numbers to ID there panels and yes that plays
a roll in what comes in pack sections wether cellos and/or racks.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by pepis

It only does apply to the years going forward,,1978 is the 1st year that topps
used the letters A,B,C,D,E,F, to ID there panels, prior to 1978 for example in 1976 and 77 they used double asterisk (**) single asterisk (*) and no asterisk
(also next to the copyright} in conjunction with the cards numbers to ID there panels and yes that plays
a roll in what comes in pack sections wether cellos and/or racks.

Thank you!

[PM770]

Thanks for the info.

I just went through my '79s to see which ones can't end up on the top of a cello. As it turns out, I have a 79 cello with Rice on top (an A) that is PSA graded. Very disappointing that they were unable to pick up on this.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by PM770

Thanks for the info.

I just went through my '79s to see which ones can't end up on the top of a cello. As it turns out, I have a 79 cello with Rice on top (an A) that is PSA graded. Very disappointing that they were unable to pick up on this.

I see there is only one 79 Rice pack graded (psa 7) oh well!!
can you post a scan of the back?

[1all]

Originally Posted by PM770

Thanks for the info.

I just went through my '79s to see which ones can't end up on the top of a cello. As it turns out, I have a 79 cello with Rice on top (an A) that is PSA graded. Very disappointing that they were unable to pick up on this.

Disappointing, but could be worse - you could have Ozzie on the front of your '79 Cello.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by pepis

It only does apply to the years going forward,,1978 is the 1st year that topps
used the letters A,B,C,D,E,F, to ID there panels, prior to 1978 for example in 1976 and 77 they used double asterisk (**) single asterisk (*) and no asterisk
(also next to the copyright} in conjunction with the cards numbers to ID there panels and yes that plays
a roll in what comes in pack sections wether cellos and/or racks.

Does D/E/F-on top and A/B/C-on bottom also apply to post-1978 Topps cellos of sports like football and hockey? Did this practice also continue into the 1990s for baseball?

[pepis]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

Does D/E/F-on top and A/B/C-on bottom also apply to post-1978 Topps cellos of sports like football and hockey? Did this practice also continue into the 1990s for baseball?

The last year that topps made cellos with visible cards is 1989,
so no cellos didn't continue in the 1990s as for hockey in some selective years in the 1960s and 70s cellos and or racks were rarely produced, finally in football
topps sets were smaller than baseball and in 1978 and on they only have 4 panels per year A,B,C,D. no E and F.
HOWEVER Arthur don't just take my word for it, this guidelines should enable you to do the proper research for yourself until you are satisfied that it is the truth.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

That makes sense about the football being smaller, thanks. Were there any discernible patterns for football cellos in the 1980s where certain cards could only be found on the top or on the bottom?

Have you ever seen legitimate discrepancies to the pattern in Topps baseball cellos? I noticed in the PSA pop report that there are a few 1975 cellos with either George Brett or Robin Yount on both the top and bottom of the cello (same card, not 1 Brett and 1 Yount).

I've read that it's possible for the pattern in rack packs to break sequence (ie. certain cards on top being found in a cell other than the one they "should" be in) but that, when they do, the abnomaly stays true throughout the entire cell (all cards in the cell are from the same sheet, which would be verifiable by checking the card visisble on the bottom of the cell).

Thanks

[PM770]

Originally Posted by pepis

I see there is only one 79 Rice pack graded (psa 7) oh well!!
can you post a scan of the back?

Yep that's mine. Here are the scans of the front and back.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by PM770

Yep that's mine. Here are the scans of the front and back.

HERE IS A CLOSE-UP OF THE PICTURE YOU POSTED WITH CLEAR EVIDENCE
THAT THE PACK HAS BEEN OPENED AND RESEALED! LOOK AT THE WHITE
ON THE CLEAR FOLD AND YOU CAN SEE WHERE IT WAS ORIGINALLY,
HARD TO BELIEVE THAT A REAL EXPERT WOULD MISS SOMETHING SO BLATAN
BUT IT'S HAPPENED MANY TIMES.

[PM770]

Originally Posted by pepis

HERE IS A CLOSE-UP OF THE PICTURE YOU POSTED WITH CLEAR EVIDENCE
THAT THE PACK HAS BEEN OPENED AND RESEALED! LOOK AT THE WHITE
ON THE CLEAR FOLD AND YOU CAN SEE WHERE IT WAS ORIGINALLY,
HARD TO BELIEVE THAT A REAL EXPERT WOULD MISS SOMETHING SO BLATAN
BUT IT'S HAPPENED MANY TIMES.

I have to admit with PSA standing behind it, I had a level of confidence in the authenticity of the unopened pack. I'll never feel that way about a PSA again.

Thanks a lot for all the info, pepis. I now have some information I've never had before about cellos 78 on.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by PM770

I have to admit with PSA standing behind it, I had a level of confidence in the authenticity of the unopened pack. I'll never feel that way about a PSA again.

Thanks a lot for all the info, pepis. I now have some information I've never had before about cellos 78 on.

If you're wondering if is still happening! check out this sub that just popped last week for a CU member (blue highlight)

[PM770]

I just looked at Ebay and right now there are 5 different 1978 cellos with Yaz on top, 2 of which are graded by PSA. There is also a 1978 with Murray on top graded by PSA.

[tribefan]

Who is fabricating these fake packs?

[pepis]

Originally Posted by PM770

I just looked at Ebay and right now there are 5 different 1978 cellos with Yaz on top, 2 of which are graded by PSA. There is also a 1978 with Murray on top graded by PSA.

I just looked, five 78 cellos with Yastrzemski on top, 4 listed by seller
(nomarhunter) who may be a victim, the 5th one is listed by already exposed
seller at the CU (stuauto) i gave the FBI compromising data on him last april., and if you check nomarhunter feedbacks one in march 20 came from stuauto for
a 78 cello with Yas on top.

if you would like more info on all this just send me a pm.

[pepis]

Another questionable graded star pack! Seaver never came in the top section!
so blatant,

[pepis]

Hard to believe that anybody could possibly believe that that this star pack
would be LEGIT,, yet it fooled both GAI and PSA.

SO MUCH for the youngsters called experts!

[Daniel]

Jose - Is that Murray pack one of your home made specials? Can you estimate how many PSA graded packs that are in circulation are your creations?

[pepis]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Jose - Is that Murray pack one of your home made specials? Can you estimate how many PSA graded packs that are in circulation are your creations?

Non of my so-called creations are in circulation there were done only so i can have prove of PSA's ineptitude in authenticating star cello packs, HOWEVER
you are right on one thing there is many bogus cello star packs PSA graded
in circulation, in fact YOU ARE the proud or maybe not so proud owner of some of them just look!!! you recently submitted these 2 Bench packs 1978 & 1979
and Bench NEVER came in the top section of either 1978 or 1979, those were put there by
a counterfeiter, so you were duped by who ever sold'm to you and PSA for authenticating them! Daniel you got the double whammy!!

[mintacular]

What do you think of the legitimacy of this pack?

[pepis]

Originally Posted by mintacular

What do you think of the legitimacy of this pack?

Hello Patrick,
so far i've been talking about the easy way to detect a bogus star pack and
that is recognizing whether the star card belongs in the top section of the
pack or not, this pack presents a different challenge for me because the card
showing on top Molitor/Trammell does belong in the top section and the card
on back is from panel "C" so it also does belong in that section HOWEVER i do see red flags!! i'm posting 3 pictures to help you understand the first is a picture of how a legit pack really looks (concentrate in the white part) the other 2 pictures are isolated sections of the scan you posted, the 2nd pic
shows what it looks to me like an interior tear that only happens when the
pack is opened, the 3rd is an arrow like look in the white that shows that
section of the inside flap may have been moved, REMEMBER i'm judging
by what i see in the scan you provided,,if you take a magnifying glass and
examine it i'm pretty sure you'll see it LMK and i'll explain rhy that happens
in a follow-up.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

The corners on the Molitor look rounded. Is that typical of 78 cellos?

[1all]

I can't really see the internal tear in picture 2 but Picture 3 looks pretty darn conclusive of a reseal. It looks to be nearly impossible to reseal a late 70s cello without disturbing the white section.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by 1all

I can't really see the internal tear in picture 2 but Picture 3 looks pretty darn conclusive of a reseal. It looks to be nearly impossible to reseal a late 70s cello without disturbing the white section.

Yup, in 70s cellos the bottom flap is were the white section (paint) normally is and that's the thinest side of the pack, and the clear top flap is normally the thickest side of the pack and that is because the piece of gum is almost always in that side, so when the heat roller or sealer was applied to the back side of the pack it sealed better or stronger on the thicker side and it got weaker as it went through and got to the thiner side,,,,that's why counterfeiters almost always open the bottom flap, the seal is weaker or easier to open than the upper flap, because the seal is so strong in that upper side it almost always rips or tears the cellophane and that ruins the pack, but disturbing the white paint is no big deal, they figure most young naive collectors won't pay attention to detail.


Arthur, those corners do look funky! you can figure out why, now.

[brob28]

Jose, just wondering if one of the area's you are focusing in on in scan three is the numbers 54 in the code. They look to be partially missing. I'm not real familiar with the cellos so just trying to test my eye for this type of fraud. Thanks for all the great information.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by brob28

Jose, just wondering if one of the area's you are focusing in on in scan three is the numbers 54 in the code. They look to be partially missing. I'm not real familiar with the cellos so just trying to test my eye for this type of fraud. Thanks for all the great information.

Pretty much Bill,
if you look closely the zero next to the 54 is missing a piece and a chunk of the white
is missing, and if you compare the entire white section with my first picture
i posted how clean the white part is makes it so obvious.

[1all]

removed

[mintacular]

Thanks for all the information, guys. This is why I almost never buy "unopened" product. I trusted the LCS owner as he is very knowledgeable and has been a good guy to me, chances are he is unaware that this pack was resealed. Now I'm in the conundrum of what to do...I did not pay all that much for the pack, part of me thinks I should just rip it and lose a couple 20's and chalk it up as a lesson learned. The other part of me thinks I should let the LCS owner know what others think but I don't want him to ostracize me etc. as I too should have done the research to know that the pack was resealed, plus he might want to know how I know it is and if site internet sites, etc. he might think those people don't know what they are talking about, etc...

[brob28]

Originally Posted by mintacular

Thanks for all the information, guys. This is why I almost never buy "unopened" product. I trusted the LCS owner as he is very knowledgeable and has been a good guy to me, chances are he is unaware that this pack was resealed. Now I'm in the conundrum of what to do...I did not pay all that much for the pack, part of me thinks I should just rip it and lose a couple 20's and chalk it up as a lesson learned. The other part of me thinks I should let the LCS owner know what others think but I don't want him to ostracize me etc. as I too should have done the research to know that the pack was resealed, plus he might want to know how I know it is and if site internet sites, etc. he might think those people don't know what they are talking about, etc...

Patrick, I recommend at least talking to the seller about it. You learn quite a bit more about people when discussing unpleasant topics than you will when everything's sunshine & rainbows! Stay courteous and just see what the seller says. If he's a good guy he'll at least engage in a reasonable discussion about it. If he tells you to take a hike or gets enraged, you may have learned something about him more valuable than the cost of the cello. JMHO.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Jose - Is that Murray pack one of your home made specials? Can you estimate how many PSA graded packs that are in circulation are your creations?

Here you go Daniel,
2 more home made graded packs that YOU ARE putting in circulation
when you have packs that aren't properly authenticated and you know it, the right thing to do is claim the psa guaranty!
not sell/pass them to innocent collectors as your'e doing.

[pepis]

Here is another sample of a home-made star cello pack, looks like
in the last 6 months this questionable packs have been coming down in price!
if anybody want to know why is it homemade! SIMPLE Ozzie NEVER came
on the top section of regular 1979 cellos!

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

The seller's user name ring a bell, although I can't place why.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

The seller's user name ring a bell, although I can't place why.

"Toonces the driving cat, the cat that could drive a car... He drives around, all over the town. He's Toonces the driving cat"

[japhi]

Is this one real?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251374277924...84.m1438.l2649

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by japhi

Is this one real?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251374277924...84.m1438.l2649

I am very curious as well... Please let us know the possibility of having the Roger Staubach card on the top and bottom of a cello pack.

[GiantsDude24]

Originally Posted by japhi

Is this one real?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251374277924...84.m1438.l2649

I don't see how it is possible to have a star card like that on the TOP and Bottom of a cello pack. How often did you look through packs as a kid and find the same star card on the top and bottom of a pack. I would be lucky to get one star card in 5 packs period...

[pepis]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I am very curious as well... Please let us know the possibility of having the Roger Staubach card on the top and bottom of a cello pack.

Very good question! i see you would like my opinion over PSA/hart expertise
one authenticated it and the other graded it MINT! judging by your inquiry you
simply don't trust them right? can't blame you Jason specially when you have been a victim of there corruption yourself, see Jason the 1975 topps cello pack
with Kaline on top you sold recently at the CU is BOGUS let me repeat it,, the
1975 Kaline pack you sold at the CU is BOGUS! see Kaline NEVER came in the
top section! only the bottom section a real expert would know that, so besides
PSA/hart you got SCREWED by who ever sold it to you, and you screwed who
ever you sold it to, LIKE I SAID BEFORE THIS PACK CORRUPTION is out of hand!
(see the bottom of the picture)

[japhi]

Nice diversion but why don't you address the cello that I linked too?

You've demonstrated you know the sequencing for most if not all years, how about demonstrating your vast knowledge on this particular cello?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by japhi

Nice diversion but why don't you address the cello that I linked too?

You've demonstrated you know the sequencing for most if not all years, how about demonstrating your vast knowledge on this particular cello?

+1

I guess these filthy pack resealers get the best of us. Please enlighten us about the Staubach pack in question. I'm very curious.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

+1

I guess these filthy pack resealers get the best of us. Please enlighten us about the Staubach pack in question. I'm very curious.

I am curious too....

[1all]

I am not speaking for Pepis here and I think the question raised is fair and deserves an answer.

But, I did want to mention that cards in cello packs from the early 70s do run in sequence. But, at any moment the sequence can break and another sequence starts. It is definitely possible for the same sequence to occur two times within the same pack. As an example, see this thread over in CU where a member opens up a 1970 Baseball Cello pack. He winds up with duplicates of a couple cards including the card on the bottom of the pack. This makes me believe that, however unlikely, the same card can conceivably show up on both the top and bottom of packs that were distributed in single series cellos like in 1972 football.

1970 Topps Baseball Cello Rip

BTW - 1970 cello packs purchased from Fritsch are rock solid legitimate. I don't believe that anyone has ever questioned this.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am curious too....

Ok, in 1972 topps produced their cards in 3 series, the basic set of only 264
cards series one cards 1/132 besides wax packs, they packaged that 1st series
in rack packs and clear cello 27 card packs, at the middle of this they decided
to test a new cello pack with much heavier paper than the clear packs this new
packs would now have a price a topps logo and product disclosure only one series so there was no rhyme or reason just random cards from a single series
fit it in a 27 card pack, this was repeated in 2nd series packs, both series were
never inserted in the same pack, and all the cards in the entire series could
and will show-up in either side, then the scarce 3rd series came out BUT only
in wax packs, all of these also happened in the following year 1973, it wasn't
until 1974 when the set grew and the number of cards in a cello packs shrank that
they (topps) developed a distinctive pattern.
in a final note i examine that pack closely and found it satisfactory,
and I know packs as well as anyone out there could possibly know, and welcome any legal challenges to disprove it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by pepis

Ok, in 1972 topps produced their cards in 3 series, the basic set of only 264
cards series one cards 1/132 besides wax packs, they packaged that 1st series
in rack packs and clear cello 27 card packs, at the middle of this they decided
to test a new cello pack with much heavier paper than the clear packs this new
packs would now have a price a topps logo and product disclosure only one series so there was no rhyme or reason just random cards from a single series
fit it in a 27 card pack, this was repeated in 2nd series packs, both series were
never inserted in the same pack, and all the cards in the entire series could
and will show-up in either side, then the scarce 3rd series came out BUT only
in wax packs, all of these also happened in the following year 1973, it wasn't
until 1974 when the set grew and the number of cards in a cello packs shrank that
they (topps) developed a distinctive pattern.
in a final note i examine that pack closely and found it satisfactory,
and I know packs as well as anyone out there could possibly know, and welcome any legal challenges to disprove it.

Did you sell this pack on ebay and if so, is it a bad pack?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-TOPPS-F...vip=true&rt=nc

[vintagetoppsguy]

I'm not taking up for Jose because I do not know him, have never conducted business with him and have no dog in this fight. However, I read a lot of accusations over here and on the CU boards.

Why can't someone post some solid proof of those accusations? I've recently called out scammers on the main page and I provide proof that links those I've accused directly to the scam (or whatever I've accused them of - e.g. shilling).

However, I have not seen any proof against Jose. If someone can link him to something, then you can change my mind, but it has to be proof positive, no he said / she said stuff.

Please don't PM me with your proof. If someone has proof, let them post it here for all to see.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by Leon

Did you sell this pack on ebay and if so, is it a bad pack?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-TOPPS-F...vip=true&rt=nc

No on both Leon,
the pack is good! and it got hit BIN by member David Gold who also created
an ALT at the CU after he got not only suspended but also erased from the
CU history his ALT is MrSnuffleupagus the same guy that sort of criticized you
on the CU yesterday his been buying some of my more expensive basketball
cards and not paying after blocking him he started using a different ebay ID
in here he is davidG1966 and i'm pretty sure he also has an ALT here.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by pepis

No on both Leon,
the pack is good! and it got hit BIN by member David Gold who also created
an ALT at the CU after he got not only suspended but also erased from the
CU history his ALT is MrSnuffleupagus the same guy that sort of criticized you
on the CU yesterday his been buying some of my more expensive basketball
cards and not paying after blocking him he started using a different ebay ID
in here he is davidG1966 and i'm pretty sure he also has an ALT here.

Wait. You didn't sell that pack? Isn't that your ebay user ID?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by pepis

No on both Leon,
the pack is good! and it got hit BIN by member David Gold who also created
an ALT at the CU after he got not only suspended but also erased from the
CU history his ALT is MrSnuffleupagus the same guy that sort of criticized you
on the CU yesterday his been buying some of my more expensive basketball
cards and not paying after blocking him he started using a different ebay ID
in here he is davidG1966 and i'm pretty sure he also has an ALT here.

So you aren't the ebay user in that auction, elsipep? David Gold is kind of out of control if you ask me....maybe one card shy of a deck.