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#1
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Posted By: Scott Levy
Gentlemen .. and Ladies, |
#2
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Posted By: Al C.risafulli
GET OUT OF HERE. |
#3
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Posted By: barrysloate
Scott- that is pretty amazing. Would you be able to post a scan? |
#4
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Posted By: Eric B
Careful, don't spend all your cash too fast. If all the Cycle brand Mathewson's say "1", then it's not a variation. Keep in mind they all say "Cycle" as well...that's the main "variation". |
#5
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Posted By: dan mckee
Very cool and bummer! I need another one now! This reminds me of the recently discovered Wilhelm variation between the very common and overly paid for Piedmont and the very rare Hassan. |
#6
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Posted By: Trae R.
This is very cool news, I am interested to see what becomes of it! |
#7
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Posted By: fkw
Like Eric said, you need to see if there is a Cycle with an "11" too for it to be a variation. Otherwise its just an uncorrected error within Cycle. |
#8
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Posted By: J Levine
Umm...wow...I own a Cycle Matty (in the safety box). There are some printing points that occur in the t205 set with the backs (like the Hoblitzell font changes) and I have to consider that until I see a Cycle back that is different that it is just an error. Shawn might know better than I but I am pretty sure the Cycle print run was the only advertiser on that back. I have handled at least a thousand t205s and probably seen scans of 1000s more and do not remember noticing this before. |
#9
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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie
Excellent observation Scott! Really cool. I gotta see a scan now. |
#10
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#11
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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley
While I understand the view that some have taken in regard to this potential back variation. However, I don't really see how this back variation would be any different than the Hobby NO STATS which is found only on Hassan backed cards. While obviously lacking an entire line of stats is a more obvious omission, this card should also be a variation within the T205 master set (along with the similar Wilhelm variation). |
#12
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Posted By: Lee Behrens
I believe that Scott owns one of my previously owned T205 MAthewson's, I owned 3 at one time or another and noticed the error and brought it to the attention of Mike Wentz and a few others that thought it was no big deal. All the T205 Matty I observed over the past 8 years have had the 11 loses except for the Cycle backs. Glad you enjoy the card, Scoot but like a few others said, if there is not a Cycle with an 11 than there is no variation. |
#13
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Posted By: Scott Levy
I'm sure that there are diverging opinions on the scarcity and error status of this card. Lee, thank you very much for selling me your Cycle Matty. |
#14
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Posted By: J Levine
While Rhett and I usually agree on things, this time it is a little different. While the Hobby no stats only comes with a Hassan back, there are Hobby w/ stats WITH a Hassan back as well. Not all Hassan backed Hobbys are without stats (don't I wish) while it seems all Mattys with the Cycle back contain the same variation. |
#15
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Posted By: PC
It's only a variation in that the Cycle back is different from a Hassan, etc. The "1"/Cycle back has no special meaning or value, unless there's an "11"/Cycle back out there. |
#16
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Posted By: Solomon
Aren't there other examples of Tobacco cards that have variations specific to a certain back? |
#17
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Posted By: dan mckee
Then why is the Wilhelm treated as a variation?? All Piedmont are Suf ered and all hassan are Suffered. |
#18
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Posted By: sagard
It seems like a pretty cool variation to me. |
#19
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Posted By: Matt
More interesting to me then if we do or do not call this is a variation is what it says about how the T205s were printed. Does this mean Cycles were printed first and someone caught the error for all other printings? |
#20
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Posted By: Brian Weisner
From Lipset’s Encyclopedia: PAGE 42 |
#21
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Posted By: J Levine
Okay...I concede the point that this variation is like the Wilhelm. |
#22
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Posted By: Scott Levy
So since I have SGC-graded cycle Mattys, I thought the right place to start is to get SGC to amend there already slabbed cards to include the 37-1 record on the slab as a variation. Here's what SGC had to say.... |
#23
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Posted By: Matt
I have found SGC to be incredibly rigid when it comes to recognizing variations. They refused my requests to recognize the "Over 300 Subjects" back on M116s as well as to differentiate between the All Capital letters backs on Play Ball cards. These are known documented variations and they refused to put them on the flip. |
#24
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Posted By: leon
Don F, editor for the SCD Big Book, does read this board and even posts sometimes. Hopefully he will chime in. If not then I have a huge package of stuff from him that I am helping with right now, with respect to values on esoteric issues, and I can help you get in touch with him. |
#25
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Posted By: scott hassel
If this gives you such a thrill I think you should get a life....from the heading of your post I thought maybe you found some new Wagner or Anson or something with some teeth. I don't mean any disrespect but give me a break. |
#26
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Posted By: leon
I respectfully disagree with you. Maybe it's not a new Wagner or Anson but it's a big deal to this collector so why rain on his parade? By the way...did you see the new cig pack I discovered (just kidding)....but please....give us baseball card guys some slack.....Everyone has their own things that get them excited....Heck, when I started collecting "backs" hardly anyone cared at all...but I am always excited about them....but then again I barely have a life so what the heck.....take care... |
#27
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Posted By: robert a
Scott H. |
#28
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Posted By: nbrazil
"I don't mean any disrespect but give me a break." |
#29
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Posted By: scott H
OK...you win. I stand corrected " I dont find your discovery exciting in my book...no disrespect intended...and Robert did I offend you too? I'll try not to post in the future but it was just so easy to jump on that and I couldn't hold myself back. Leon it was great speaking with you as usual and I hope to be able to make it to your " coming to NY party ". Chill out guys. I was just bustin em. |
#30
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Posted By: Steve
You posting ain't the issue. It's about respect. Get some |
#31
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Posted By: MVSNYC
Scott H- |
#32
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Posted By: leon
I know Scott H pretty well too......He and I spoke on the phone a while ago and before he knew what hole he had just dug himself. I told him about it. Scott H really didn't mean that much by it....It's not a big deal to him....he just said it incorrectly....and politically incorrect too....But he's a good guy.....Please let him off the hook on this one....he really wasn't trying to come off the way it sounded (*which I admit sounded crappy). I know I have put both feet in my mouth before on the board but I have learned.....Scott H hasn't ....yet....and Scott H...I hope you can make the dinner.....as well as anyone else....though from what I remember my budget could get slammed if the price isn't right |
#33
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Posted By: Steve
Kind of you Leon... But shouldn't he have discussed this with S Levy instead of you? |
#34
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Posted By: leon
Like I said when he called he hadn't even seen my post. Scott H and I talk frequently so it's not unusual for either of us to call each other. That being said I don't like what he said and told him so....Again, I really don't think he meant it the way it sounded ...He's not a mean guy like a few others I know....take care (yes, I guess he should apologize and I think in his own way he did with his last post)...... |
#35
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Posted By: Steve
I gotta say, I admire those members above for being standup guys. |
#36
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Posted By: Eric B
Back on topic...what should the flip say? |
#37
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Posted By: Lee Behrens
The card got hyped up pretty good by Mr. Lipset in this auction and went for way too much money. The write up is embellished pretty good. |
#38
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Posted By: Eric B
....The card was discovered by long time Indianapolis collector Ted Koch at a show in 1975 or 1976 and was purchased then for the princely sum of $1,000.... |
#39
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Posted By: MVSNYC
Mazal Tov Scott! |
#40
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Posted By: dan mckee
I agree with Lee, Lew's went way too high. But then again, I don't have one so what can I say. |
#41
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Posted By: fkw
$1,000 in the mid 70s would buy a T206 Wagner |
#42
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Posted By: Lee Behrens
The lack of responses to this thread amazes me considering that the description is a misrepresentation of the card and the price is probably 10 times more than it should be. |
#43
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Posted By: Rob D.
Lee, |
#44
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Posted By: Lee Behrens
Rob, This will probably get deleted but here it is. I don't now how I can represent this without copying the email. |
#45
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Posted By: Rob D.
I forgot about the no-posting-e-mails rule. Kudos to you for e-mailing Lew directly. |
#46
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Posted By: dennis
what do the t205 cycle back mattys usually sell for in the same grade? |
#47
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Posted By: J Levine
Not as rare as the Hobby no stats. Not close. Over the years I have seen several T205 Matty Cycle backs. In fact, I have owned at least two in the last ten years before the "variation" was discovered. Cycle backs are rare but not that rare. This card literally went for about 8 times what it should have. I have no evidence one way or another for a t205 matty that sold in the mid-1970s for $1000 but you could buy a near set of vg t205s for that price in 1974. Most commons were going for 2-3 dollars and most stars were 15-25 with Cobb bringing the most money at about $50. |
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