Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Indeed, steroids turn flyouts into home runs.

Do they turn infield singles into two-hop groundouts? Bloop singles into flyouts? Do they turn a hard, opposite-field foul liner into the stands into a lineout to center? A foul pop into the stands behind the plate into a tip straight back into the catcher's mitt?

Do steroids beef you up to the point where you can no longer leg out an infield single on a weak grounder? Do they turn a line-drive double down the first base line into a hard flyout to right?

Do they turn a line drive single to center into a deep flyout instead? Do they turn a double in the gap into a long flyout to the warning track?

We have no idea, do we? No. We all know they turn long fly balls into longer fly balls. But do they turn weak hits into outs? Good, solid singles into lineouts?

I would think they probably do. And yet Bonds hit .370 a few years ago.

Here's another question - lots of times, people make allowances for a player's numbers because of the park they played in. I've heard many people say that Joe D would have hit 80 more home runs if he didn't play in Yankee Stadium. Well, would Barry have hit ten more home runs a season if he was playing in Pac Bell instead of windy Candlestick? The year he hit 46 home runs at Candlestick, years before his steroid use began, could it be that there were 10 flyouts that got hung up in the wind, that might have gone out if he was playing in Pac Bell, or still with the Pirates?

Furthermore - if he wasn't batting against juiced-up pitchers, is it possible he could have gotten around on ten pitches during the season that were swinging strike three's instead? Maybe he could have hit 83, instead of 73.

We'll never know. And until we can scientifically answer all those questions, I refuse to marginalize his numbers over the last five or six years. The man is an amazing ballplayer, playing in the steroid era, against other players who are on steroids.

-Al

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Posted By: identify7

Bonds has been hitting 35-50 HRs each year since the early 90s. This is common enough.

One year (2001) he hit 73. Unprecidented! But baseball history is full of persons who have an unbelievable year.
But it is more than that. He has been slugging at approximately an .800 pace over the past four years - and he is beyond his 40th birthday. Well, this is unusual for a player statistically thought to be near the end of his career. But it is just unusual. One player to mirror this accomplishment in my lifetime is Wilhelm. He was putting together seasons under 2.00 ERA into his mid-40s; and winning seasons beyond that.

Im sorry friends, all you have is circumstantial evidence (although I admit that the circumstances appear to be steroid use).


I have to vote with Jay on this one. A balk is against the rules, and when one is established the penalty is meted out. Steroids are against the rules, if proven are any records voided? Sorry, its in the books.

First there was Williamson for 30+ years, then Ruth and Maris for similar intervals. I may not live to see Bonds record broken, and you may not either. But there is no purging it. Wait - maybe an asterisk.

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

"Steroids are against the rules, if proven are any records voided?"

That's another great point. I think we all acknowledge that the man has juiced, but he's never tested positive. Without a positive test, it's tough to go back and find the date that his numbers should be erased from the books.

If he ever does test positive, baseball has now established penalties - but I think he's got to test positive a LOT of times before lifetime suspension becomes an issue.

-Al

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Posted By: jay behrens

Al, PacBell, or whatever they call it now, is not a HR hitters paradise. It's jsut the opposite. And hitting them down right field like Bonds does is even tougher. I'm not sure if 10 opposing players have hit HRs into the Cove, yet Bonds, I think, has done it close to 50 times. Imagine the numbers he could have put up if he played in a true hitters paradise like Colorado. He might have made run at 100, as absurd as that sounds.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Jay, I think Bonds is the only person to hit it into McCovey's Cove more than twice.

Yes, PacBell is not a hitter's paradise. But it was built for Bonds. From what I understand, balls don't get hung up in the wind the way they did at Candlestick. A home run is a home run at Pac Bell, whereas I've seen film of long fly balls hit at Candlestick that wound up getting blown back and landing in the INFIELD.

If Bonds has hit 50 into the water, and who knows how many more out into right, my point is that perhaps without the Candlestick wind, he could have hit more out than he did.

-Al

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It's not true one requires a positive steroids test to prove guilt. In a court of a law, a variety of circumstantial evidence can be significantly more compelling to a judge or jury than a lab test.

If, as a defendant in a court case, Mark McGwire chose to take the stand and testify as he did before Congress, most juries and judges would use his evasive answers as evidence of guilt. If, according to past record, McGwire repeatedly stated he never used steroids but, when put under oath in case, he refused to repeat the stance and repeatedly tried to change the subject and gave evasive answers, odds are the jury would find him guilty (Note: if in a court case he testified as defendant, there would likely be much evidence already presented against him. Defendants are usually advised no to testify).

Sammy Sosa's 'No entender' act would likely hold up simularly well in court of law. (Golly gee, do think the prosecution might submit video tapes of Sosa conversing in English?)

In the Olympics, athletes have been suspended for illegal drug use without a positve drug test. It happened this last Winter Olympics ... In an other Olympics case (Austrian skiiing team), there were no positive steroids test that I'm aware of, but the team may be penalized becaused they hired time with a banned coach and because some skiiers impeded investigation (including literally throwing out the window labratory material). The likely will be punished, perhaps severely, even if there are no positive drug tests, as the circumstantial offenses are considered significant enough and evidence enough of bad behavior. According to some Olympic officials, the hiring of the banned coach is reason enough for punishment.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I used to live in SF and have attended many games at both The Stick and the new park. People claim the park was built for Bonds, but it's obviously not that easy to hit it over the wall in right. I've been down on the field at home plate. It's like Fenway, the wall seems so close that it seemed I could poke it over the wall with ease.

David, I doubt you'll ever see the day that baseball, or any other sport in the US goes the route of the Olympics. They trying to uphold an ideal of pure athleticism. American sports only worships the all-mighty dollar. And if that means atheletes pumping themselves full of drugs, etc in order to draw fans and increase revenues, then they will continue to let athletes do pretty much anything they want.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Anson

It seems that we all have our opinions and probably won't change them. Obviously some of us are Bonds fans and some aren't.

Facts

Barry only eclipsed 40 home runs 3 times in his first 14 years (up to age 34). In his past five years (not taking his injured 2005 into account) he eclipsed 40 home runs every year with a few "unbelievable" seasons. His slugging percentage went up 150 to 200 points as well.

Bonds is an amazing talent, no arguement there. I guess we'll never know how good/bad he would have been in his last five years if he wasn't juiced. But, I'm sure he'd be on his way to the Hall either way.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

W/o the juice Barry would have been a HOF player. The juice just allowed him to put up some incredible numbers at the end of his career.

Pre-juice a homerun every 16 or so at bats.
After-juice a homerun every 8 or so at bats.

I only hope people don't try to rationalize this statistic unless the debate/arguement includes that he did it with roids or whatever clear or cream was used. Like I've been saying, Bonds has been an incredible hitter to watch these past few seasons. He certainly put fans in the seats and brought about a lot of excitement in these past 5 years (juiced or not - yes juiced).

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Posted By: identify7

Rationalizing that statistic? What? Getting better with time? Certainly Bonds got much better. So did Heilmann (quite markedly), and lots of others.

I am not pro-Bonds. I am anti-He is guilty because of ....

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Gil,

Bonds was a good hitter before the juice. I don't think that great players in their mid-30s "all of a sudden" have an epiphany of sorts and figure out how to hit a baseball harder. He already had the basic skills (obviously above average). Time is the true test of a ball player. Look at the great ones with longevity (I'm not saying every player) the one thing that they had was consistency. Bonds had consistency at a great level then all of a sudden he so vastly improved that the level of play was immeasurable amongst his peers or players from the past. That improvement along with his absolutely incredible growth in MUSCLE MASS can have a few conclusions. The exclusion of steroid or growth hormones from that conclusion would be pretty naive.

Add to this his admission to using the clear and cream (although he indicates he didn't know what they really were.... that's really naive) would help come to the right conclusion.

I can't say it enough. Bonds has been really fun to watch these past five years. He fills the seats because fans like to see his power output and watch his every at bat because the potential for something big to happen is always there.

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Posted By: identify7

Judge:

After 10 years in baseball and a composite ERA of about 3.00; Wilhelm went on a streak in which he was under a 2.00 Era for esentially every season. This streak began when he was 39 years old, and culminated with his lowest ERA (1.31) at age 44. He continued this until he was 48, at which point he went 0-1 with a 2.70 ERA. When, at 49, he had another losing (0-1) season, he hung up his spikes - or maybe his knuckles.

My only point here is that Bond's record does not prove guilt. Please do not interpret my statements as inferring that I believe that Bonds is not guilty.

I don't care. I applaud all cheating. John McGraw (and others) in the 1890s were great!

Edited to add: Heck, I even condone base stealing! Actually, I like it.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Add to this his admission to using the clear and cream (although he indicates he didn't know what they really were.... that's really naive) would help come to the right conclusion.

Please don't continue the falsehood that Bonds says he took the clear and cream. I already posted his exact testimony. I put a clear substance in my hair and cream on my skin. This does not mean that I took the steroids in question.

Just goes to prove that people are going to believe whatever they want to, regardless of the facts. This doesn't mean that I don't think Bonds took steroids, I just hate it when people keep perpetuating a lie when it's obviously wrong.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: identify7

This is the Show. It is only baseball, you know - entertainment.
And worse - the collection of cards of the Star actors.

Many really try, especially the producers. But it is the actors who are the best.

It is only cards (of entertainers). Now Sitting Bull was not an entertainer, in the beginning. Nor were War figures and machinery really entertaining. Pirates were not either, until Hollywood decided to romanticize swashbuckling types. But Dudes, Ladys with fat legs, Birds etc. Burdick seemed to like 'em best.

Relax and enjoy the show.

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

I have had it twice in 14 years via doctor stephen turner who has performed this procedure on Bonds and many of the oakland Athletics. The above information concerning it is completely incorrect.

On another note,I had shoulder surgery on January 31st of 2005 via doctor arthur ting............the same doctor who on the very same day in the very same facility operated on Barry's knee! Barry's skull is gigantic! Your skull does not grow without enhancement.I joked with a couple of surgeons in the recovery room about it.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Jay,

Did you happen to see one of the earlier posts that predicted that this thread would pass 150 posts and to watch Jay get riled up and come to Bonds defense and watch Fred try to get his goat by berating Bonds. Ok, just kidding. As much as I do not like Bonds as a person I sure as heck like to watch him hit. Without a doubt he's been one of the most exciting players to come to bat in the past 5 years or so. I know you don't take the stuff personally and that you're just trying to see Barry get a fair shake. NOW ADMIT IT, YOU THINK BONDS HAS TAKEN ROIDS!!! Just kidding....

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Posted By: identify7

I admit it.
====AND====
I was just kidding.
BASEBALL IS REAL.

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Posted By: Anson

Heilmann got better after 25ish or so but dropped off considerably and retired shortly after 35. Also, his power numbers did not significantly increase over time. His numbers were pretty consistent.

In case any one is curious about LASIK (with a K), here's the FDA site

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/lasik/

As you can see, they are corrective in the place of glasses and contacts. You can correct myopia, hyperopia, astigmatism, etc.

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

you learn a lot more about life from experience as opposed to googling everything. And of course accountability which bears out witnesses of truth over lies and self deception. You'll see what I mean. They will come to you

http://www.texaslasik.net/Lasic.asp>

googling is easy but then I only had the procedure twice as stated above


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Posted By: Anson

Looks like we're falling too far off topic now. We might want to steer things back to vintage cards again.

I'm sure the rest of the board isn't interested in how easy it is to find misspellings on internet sites. Keratomileusis doesn't start with a "C".

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Posted By: jay behrens

Here's an interesting article on the newest book about Bonds.

Can't blame Barry for jealousy
By Jason Whitlock
Special to ESPN.com Page 2

You can write and say whatever you want about Barry Bonds now. He's the new O.J. Simpson, on trial for threatening to murder the legacies of Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron.

Even though it certainly appears Barry juiced on his way to 700 home runs, it doesn't seem fair that he's receiving the same treatment as The Juice.


But, make no mistake, with Barry on the brink of surpassing Ruth, it's time for sportswriters to cash in and crucify Barry for money. Geraldo Rivera must be livid he's a poor writer. Barry-bashing in print will get you the lead on "SportsCenter" and put you on the cover of Sports Illustrated and in ESPN The Magazine.

Two San Francisco sportswriters proved beyond a shadow of a publisher's doubt that Bonds ingested steroids and human growth hormone throughout the late '90s and early in the new millennium. Now, another sports scribe is unveiling his Barry book, and it details the motivation for Barry's love of the juice.

Can you believe this? Barry Bonds used steroids because muscle-bound bombers Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa "saved baseball" by stroking 136 combined homers during a magical 1998 duel.

Not only is Barry a cheat, a boorish ass, a womanizer and a tax evader, he's also capable of being jealous.

Yep, according to writer Jeff Pearlman, Barry told Ken Griffey Jr. and several other unnamed dinner companions that he was joining the baseball arms race and was willing to stick needles in his rear end to do it.

Pearlman, who was not at the alleged dinner as far as we know, quoted Barry's message to Griffey and Co. verbatim:

"You know what? I had a helluva season last year, and nobody gave a crap. Nobody. As much as I've complained about McGwire and Canseco and all of the bull with steroids, I'm tired of fighting it. I turn 35 this year. I've got three or four good seasons left, and I wanna get paid. I'm just gonna start using some hard-core stuff, and hopefully it won't hurt my body. Then I'll get out of the game and be done with it."

Wow. Someone has a photographic memory, or took very detailed notes of a 1998 meeting. Or maybe Pearlman has been sitting on that little nugget for seven years. Whatever the case, it doesn't matter now. You can write or say anything about Bonds. We're 99.99 percent sure he took steroids, and we're 100 percent sure we don't want him to pass Babe Ruth on the home run chart.

Sportswriters and broadcasters want this so bad that some of them are pushing for Bud Selig to suspend Bonds this season. Not only did Bonds cheat -- just like 75 percent of the players, according to Ken Caminiti, a far more credible source than uninvolved sportswriters -- but he was driven by jealousy.

The latter crime is what cracks me up about the latest attack on Bonds.

People are genuinely upset that Bonds grew frustrated with baseball's unwillingness to address the steroid issue and sportswriters' celebration of McGwire's chemically enhanced "magical season" and basically said, "If I can't beat 'em, I might as well join 'em."

If McGwire, Sosa, money-hungry owners and spineless, jersey-chasing, look-the-other-way, hypocritical baseball writers caused Bonds to use steroids, then I feel sorry for Bonds.

He's a victim in all of this, no different than the kids who turn to steroids because they want to be just like Barry Bonds.

During the McGwire-Sosa farce, the media sent the clear message that using steroids was OK. I'll quote Pearlman's book to make my point. Pearlman quoted Jay Canizaro, one of Bonds' teammates in 1999, saying this about Bonds:


"Hell, he took off his shirt the first day and his back just looked like a mountain of acne. Anybody who had any kind of intelligence or street smarts about them knew Barry was using some serious stuff."

And I'm supposed to believe the same thing couldn't be said about McGwire?

Balls were flying out of parks at a record clip, players' biceps and shoulders were expanding at a record clip, and all we heard were a bunch of smoke-screen stories about juiced baseballs and an andro bottle in McGwire's locker.

Gimme a break.

The excerpt from Pearlman's book humanizes Bonds. He's driven by the same emotions as the rest of us. Jealousy is a vice we all carry. It's great that Ken Griffey Jr. didn't succumb to his feelings of jealousy. More power to him.

But there are reasons we establish laws and rules. It's because most of us can't control ourselves without them. If police never handed out speeding tickets, most of us would ignore the signs and drive as fast as we wanted. If there were no penalties for defaulting on a debt, many of us would not pay our bills.

Bonds watched his peers get rewarded for apparently cheating. The whole country saluted McGwire. If baseball purists, the seamheads who allegedly care about the game, called BS on McGwire and Sosa and celebrated Bonds' truly astonishing 400/400 feat, Bonds likely wouldn't be nipping at Ruth's heels today.

But we didn't do that. No one imagined Bonds' challenging Ruth's legacy as the greatest slugger of all time. So now Bonds must be vilified, disgraced and, if we're lucky, run out of baseball. He can't do what Jason Giambi and almost every steroid cheat has done.

Why can't he?


I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Scott Gross

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

have the accountable person contact me today!

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Posted By: identify7

It seems to me that opening the Hall of Blame would have much more interesting members than the HOF ever will.

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Posted By: Anonymous

--

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Posted By: dd

A couple of duck hunters from my area were once busted for killing over the limit. They killed over 100 ducks in one hunt over a baited pond. The game wardens who busted them had film and photos of the hunters as they exceeded the limit.

In court the hunters were prosecuted. After the judge passed sentence, he informed the game wardens(in attendence for the proceedings)who made the citations that they too would be prosecuted for their role. The judge's claim was that the law of limits exist to protect a species and a sport, not to fund coffers, and that the game wardens failed to uphold law.....they should have intervened sooner.

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Posted By: jay behrens

PC, you obviously missed the point. If the media had been as persisant about Mac's andro and looked for other drug use as they have been with Bonds, you probably wouldn't have had the Bonds situation arise. Instead, everyone was in love with Mac and turned a blind eye to what everyone knew he was doing. God forbid the media should go after a beloved white guy. You don't see any outrage over Mac's single seaon mark, but everyone is outraged about Bonds' hitting 70? I'll say it because few will, race and hated. People hate Bonds and the fact that he is Black helps ease that hate. Mac is white was beleoved until his joke of an appearance before congress. How outraged would people be if Mac had stayed healthy and was chasing these very same numbers? I doubt you would see anywhere near the outrage scrutiny.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: DJ

As noted 100 threads ago, this thread will reach the record and I honestly think that this thread should be tested for steroids. It's not fair to the other threads that aren't as big and I think Adam J's thread of "all low grade cards are worthless" was done cleanly.

If Mark McGwire was Barry Bonds right now, the world wouldn't hate him as much, but they would still hate him. This based on his personality.

I don't believe skin color has anything to do with it and if you think so, it's the easy argument and you are wrong. It's about ethics.

If there was a picture of Barry Bonds injecting himself, there would still be some of you that would feel the photo was doctored and when Bonds said it was his insulin shot for his Diabetes, many would believe that too.

McGwire was never accused of doing steroids while he was playing, but andro wasn't banned or illegal and no one really knew anything about it at the time. You could buy it at the mall. Can't buy steroids in the mall.

When Mac refused to answer questions at the hearing about steroid use, he came across rather poorly and a lot of hate has been thrown in his direction which was once love. People started to question him and by the time they could "further" look into the affair, he was gone and now living in seclusion and answering nothing while his torso shrinks.

Does Palmeiro not have a job because of his nationality? No, because he is a finger pointing liar. Nobody likes being lied too.

Bonds is hated because there is so much proof that links him to steroids. HIS TRAINER AND FRIEND DISTRIBUTED STEROIDS! He is a bastard of a human being that goes out of his way to be anti-social. People hate the fact that he blames everyone but himself for being hated. He is hated because a large majority of the world feel that his stats are tainted and it is truly disrespecting the achivements of The Bambino and Hammerin Hank.

If McGwire(or Todd Helton or Craig Biggio or Chad Curtis) was about to reach that level and there was this much questioning in the air about the honesty of the achievement, there would no doubt be hate in their direction as well. McGwire is just another #500 home run hitter (like his unemployed pals from 1998 to current), not someone who came close to the records that matter.

DJ

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Posted By: jay behrens

If you honestly believe that the color of Bonds skin has absolutely nothing to do with this, then you live a different world than I do and would love to live there. Racism isn't as bad or obvious as it was in the 50s, but it's still there and much more subtle today.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Anonymous

--

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Timing!!!

There weren't a lot of people hooting and hollaring about Bonds being on steroids when he was approaching 70 HRs. A lot of this started after the hearing (Palmiero and his finger pointing, etc) on steroids.

Bonds has been a jackass for a lot longer than that. He's always felt that he has been discriminated against. I don't recall people crying "cheater" or "juicer" during that run at the season record. Most of this is being brought out NOW.

I think people would have had an easier time just shaking their heads in disgust if he just said "yeah, I juiced - so what". The funny part is that when people didn't suspect it (or not as many people suspected it) he was a baseball superhero. Now that the truth is eeking out, the general (naive) public is a bit disgusted at the fact that he had a chance to just admit it and move on but he didn't take that road. Instead he seems to have denied it all.

Black or white doesn't really matter here. Yes, there are some people that dislike him because he's black but I would like to believe (and not naively) that they are in the minority. I don't like Bonds because he's a horses ass not because he's black. Hell, he's going to break a record that belongs to Hank Aaron (did we forget he's black). I think that people are viewing the record as something that should be broken by someone that has played the game at a high level for their entire career, not by someone that boosted the numbers by turning themselves into a lab rat.

If Barry Bonds would have just admitted to his use of performance enhancers and if he had the personality of someone that is liked (for the most part) by the majority of fans then he probably wouldn't be taking such a pounding on this issue. When I say someone that is liked I mean someone with a Tony Gwynn or Ozzie Smith or Albert Pujols type of personality.

I guess I'm a little bit on the hypocritic side because I really liked to watch him hit these past 5 years. Even though I don't like Bonds I sure like the dimension he has added to the game.

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Posted By: Anson

Maybe I'm wrong, but many of us don't want to see any steroid user pass Hank Aaron (an African American last time I checked).

Racism still exists to some extent but I don't believe it's coming into play with the case of Bonds. He has, from the start, handled himself in a manner that attracts negative attention.

Removing race out of the mix, I would be upset to see any person pass Aaron unless they did it without the enhancement of illegal substances. I don't care if it's McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Manny, it just isn't right. While I may have slightly more respect for McGwire (mainly for how he's handled himself off the field), I still consider him a cheat and his numbers tainted. The HR chase of 98' served as a way to save baseball. However, in retrospect, I feel duped that both of the involved parties probably did it unfairly.

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Posted By: DJ

Jay, what color the sky is in your world though?

I've watched you pull from your world accusations that Clemens is on the juice and Griffey may be, comparing sharpened spikes to steroids and why eye surgery was even mentioned in an argument about steroids? What's next?

Sure there's some racism out there and it isn't anything like it was during the times of Cobb and Robinson, but I think this whole ball of hate was created by Bonds himself.

Didn't he testify before a grand jury that he took steroids "unknowingly"? Steroids is illegal right? How can anyone stick up for him?

It's like what was said above...it's about timing and it's also about ethics, being deceitful, being an excrement human being and ruining baseball history more than anything. He's a #500 home run hitter, not a #700+ hitter.

DJ

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Posted By: jay behrens

DJ, please, please, please, stop perpetuating a falsehood. I quoted Bonds exact testimony. Nowhere did he say he used steroids, Clear, or Cream. Go back and read that post so you can stop repeating this idiocy.

If nothing else, this pisses me off more than anything.

If ysomeone is going to go after Bonds, I want to see them go after every mega-star of the game to make sure they aren't juicing. Singling out Bonds because you don't want to see him break a HR record or dislike him is not a good reason to go after the guy. Why does Clemens get cut slack about showing the same physical characteristics and performance as Bonds that supposedly proves steroid use? I want to see Clemens scurinized as closely as Bonds is because he's done things at his age that no normal person should be doing. No one will do any looking into Clemens becasue he is well liked and no chasing any records that someone would be offended if he broke it.

In all reality, I don't give a rats ass one way or the other if anyone is juicing. What I do care about is someone being singled out while other people that are just as guilty slide by.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Well I care deeply if someone is "juicing" and ruining baseball history. This is a game built on its tremendous heritage and to see classic records fall because of steroids is a tragedy.

I would like to see the commissioner immediately suspend Bonds and his records voided--same thing for McGwire, Sosa, Palmiero and others where the evidence is indisputable.

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Posted By: DJ

Jay,

Unlike you, I care about whose cheating and whose not cheating and I guess that is why you have gotten under my skin to a certain degree. What pisses me off is when you have a person who is simply off the map in his thinking probably only looking to further the debate. And yes, I did read your threads, just basically summed it up.

So in so is "probably" on steroids, even though I don't have proof and let's stop picking on Bonds? Blah, blah, blah. Everything points to Bonds and your trying to bring other athletes and scenario's into the conversation.I'm glad this Forum wasn't around when JFK was shot. I can only imagine.

Sorry board. I'll let it go and move on.

DJ

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Posted By: identify7

DJ: I enjoy a debate. Others do too. I do not find it necessary to actually believe in the position which you accept in a discussion, if the discussion is your sole objective. However, when others strongly believe in their position, I can understand that comments "off the map" as you characterize them, can fuel frustration.

If the opposing view in this thread was limited to those who sincerely believed in Bond's innocence, we would have far, far, less contributions.

Edited to add:
Unless he quits before he is washed up, it looks to me like Bonds is going to be the only 800+ HR hitter this game will see in a long time.

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Posted By: Ray

take a look at his rookie card. then take a look at his 2005 card. no one's head size grows 8 times as big just from working out.

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Posted By: Jason Duncan

I think he just drinks whole milk as opposed to 2%. You all are jumping to conclusions!

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Posted By: jay behrens

As was pointed out on another list I belong to, there is no absolute proof that Bonds used anything illegal. All you have is inuendo and claims from people who have their own axe to grind or are possibly saying anything to in order to save themselves jail time.

The other thing that needs to be remembered is that there has not been a single shred of scientific proof to show that taking steroids enhances your ability hit, hit homers or do anything else that makes you a great hitter or pitcher.

Absent these FACTS, this is all just a bunch guessing and supposition.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: identify7

' duplicate post

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

agree with many of your sentimets above, though, while I've not read the SI store or the book, I heard that he was taking HGH and that the statement was made that the HGH had improved the vision. If that's true, it would be very possible to improve the hitting.

It'll always be a shadow hanging over him, Palmeiro, McGwire, et al. It'll be interesting to see where the BB writers put them when time comes to go to HOF. I guess Selig will be forced to investigate the Bonds situation.

I'll always wonder if that's why McGwire dropped out so quickly. The Andro was one thing but I bet there were other skeletons in the closet.

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Posted By: Brian

If Bonds would just come clean, the public largely would forget/forgive him. Notice that Giambi isn't hasseled as much. While his "admission" was weak and vague -- he took his lumps and now very few people bring him up.

I agree w/ Jay that there aren't stone-cold facts to Bonds' supposed use. That being said, many signs indicate that he improved his performance at an advanced age in a way no human before has accomplished. If it walks like a duck...

I don't think its a leap to say that steriods directly or indirectly make a user stronger. If someone already has the ability to hit a baseball, is it unreasonable to think if they get stronger, the ball will go further?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

He may not be the paragon of virtue but he is unrestrained in his comments on baseball. He did an interview on HBO and was asked about hand-eye and steroids. His point was that an elite player in MLB already has spectacular hand-eye coordination and eyesight, so if you make that player stronger, he muscles deep fly balls over the fence. Rose said that he played with Aaron and Mays extensively and never saw them hit the kinds of opposite field HRs that the modern sluggers are hitting.

One of the problems that the Bonds defenders have is that Bonds himself claims ignorance and in the process destroys himself as a defense witness. Bonds says he used stuff Anderson gave him without knowing it was anything except flaxseed oit; Anderson says the stuff was illegal performance enhancing drugs. At most, Bonds can claim that he has no knowledge, and by definition if the person who has knowledge says it was steroids, guess what, it was steroids. If you believe that Bonds has no culpability for what he puts into his body, you support Bonds. If you believe that the buck stops with Bonds' decision to take a substance, you consider his records tainted, not because he admits to the taint but because he admits he has no actual knowledge and the person who does says that the illegal drugs were used. Me, I feel that there is enough evidence from enough sources to conclude that Bonds used illegal drugs to enhance his performance in violation of the existing rules and I would not vote him into the HOF if I had a vote. I don't want his deeds glorified. I feel the same way about Rafael Palmiero and after his performance in Congress, Mark McGwire.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Selig is in a lose-lose situation with regards to investigating Bonds. If he does nothing, then he proves that is nothing more than the ineffectual leader that he is and would most likely be run out of office. If he does investigate, he has to investigate the whole scandal, not just Bonds. Opening up this investigation will mean that Selig and the powers that be have to show when they knew what and I'm willing to bet that this is not something that they want brought to light.

No matter what Selig does, he loses and he has sealed is fate as the biggest joke of a Commissioner ever to hold office. If only Giamati hadn't died prematurely...

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Brian

Selig has put Bonds in a decent position. Any investigation would certainly highlight MLB's active indifference to steriods. Selig & crew were happy to be ignorant to the steriod issue. If the commish's office had take a tough stand against steriods 10+ years ago, it would be a helluva lot easier for them to investigate a scandal. Right now, the first finding of any investigation (regardless of player) would be that MLB was asleep at best asleep the wheel and at worst a participant.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The player's union was an active enabler.

Except for players who were actively complaining that there was no testing for steroids, I find the 'I did it, because others were doing it' to be a bogus argument.

The player's union prevented steroids testing and punishment, and the union is the representatives for the player. Players vote and the union has designated player representatives from each team. Notice that the union recently allowed testing and punishment for steroids, but only after many players voiced their opinion against steriods in the game, often through their player representatives. The current testing/punishment system is greatly influenced by the players. This would also suggest that past lack of testing/punishment also influenced by the players.

If Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa were actively complaining to the union representatives about the use of steroids I will cut them due slack. And perhaps both were, I'm not insinuating they weren't. Someone like Bonds would carry great clout with the union and baseball in general. If they weren't complaining about to the union about steroids, they were enablers of the system not victims.

One of the most insightful things I heard was when someone said that problem with Donald Fehr is that he thinks he's a civil rights lawyer, when he's really an entertainment lawyer. Baseball players are celebrities like movie stars and rock singers, where industry and public image is essential. Fehr did all he could to prevent encroachment on his player's civil rights, but help ruined the image of his clients and the industry that pays their big salaries.

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Posted By: ChuckkieB

One piece of circumstantial evidence might be able to be explained away, perhaps even more....but there are boat loads of documentation, interviews, accounts, recorded conversations, and other damnning evidence compiled by two well respected journalists (that had absolutely no axe to grind) that implicate Bonds, that is all collectively impossible to ignore. And let's not forget Bonds STATS. I am SHOCKED that there are those here that are actually trying to defend Bonds in any way, shape, or form. I guess you are the same folks who think OJ was not guilty as well. I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that there aren't too many cases that are solved by the implicated party simply holding up his hands and saying, "I did it." It seems that there are several of you who aren't willing to point the finger at Bonds unless that happens. Don't hold your breath. There is a saying that several on this board like to use from time to time which is apropos here - If it quacks like a duck - it's a duck!

Bud selig needs to do everything in his power to protect the integrity of the most coveted records in sports - and that means investigating Bonds AND everyone else even remotely connected to steriods. It wil be ugly for baseball in the short term, but when the dust settles, it will be worth it. Bonds is no different from Mcgwire, Sosa, or anyone else who has used steriods, and ANYONE who tets positive, has been arrested, or has been investigated by MLB and there is indisputable evidence that they did steriods, ALL of their stats need to be removed completely from the record books. Period. Selig must show some guts here, and admit baseball turned a blind eye to this problem years ago but is now willing to step up and fix it once and for all.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

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