Rant about PSA. Does anyone have a contact there?

[Bpm0014]

So a quick rant (and I never rant!). I have a hook up getting Michael Jordan's autograph. I had about 20ish, still have about 7 left, all on various mediums. One of the funnier mediums; I asked my uncle to get him to sign his rookie card, my uncle calls me later that day to come by and pick it up.....and Jordan signed the plastic case haha. But anyway.... All were signed in my presence other than maybe 2-3 that my uncle got for me and returned to me later that day. I recently sold a basketball and a really nice rookie era jersey for $1100, both signed in my presence. I've never had a problem with anything, every single autograph has passed.....except for the jersey. The person that I sold it to tells me it came back no good. It was signed in front of me!! If we can't trust PSA on something that was signed in front of me, how can we trust them with everything else? Sorry to rant, but super frustrated! It's not a question of me refunding the money (which I will happily do), but why do I have to cancel a sale for something that was signed in front of me, but does not pass based on some goofball who examines it for 30 seconds?

[bobbyw8469]

Happens all the time. It's their sandbox, we just play it in. We have had cards pulled straight from the pack come back trimmed. Autographs signed in our presence come back no good. The list goes on and on...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Happens all the time. It's their sandbox, we just play it in. We have had cards pulled straight from the pack come back trimmed. Autographs signed in our presence come back no good. The list goes on and on...

What's more disturbing to me is the opposite -- bad stuff authenticated or graded. Which also happens all the time. The sandbox giveth as well as taketh.

[RichardSimon]

And the hits just keep on coming,,,,,
There are so many people in the hobby whose autograph opinions I trust over PSA's, including a number of people on this board.
Anyone up for the Net54 authentication service?? ..
Brendan you asked for a contact,,, that will do no good since the person who turned down this jersey is in the authentication Twilight Zone and would never come forward to explain anything.

[Bpm0014]

It was signed in my presence; that's what irritates me. All I had was a black marker, so he signed 2 basketballs, a photo, and a jersey all in black marker. The numbers on the jersey are black, so he had to actually sign the mesh/jersey part (which is red). The autograph turned out great but I assume that it's a little tough signing "mesh", and the "M" is ever so slightly different. I wish there was an appeals process....

[Duluth Eskimo]

Not even worth trying. This happens all the time to a number of in person chasers. Everything I get is older autographs so it doesn't really apply, but like others have said, it's their sandbox.

For Jordan who is one of the most forged autos in the autograph business, if there is any deviation in the signature from an Upper Deck example or contract they're not going to risk getting roasted by collectors posting on a board like this one. They've heard every story imaginable and it doesn't matter no matter the autograph.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

It was signed in my presence; that's what irritates me. All I had was a black marker, so he signed 2 basketballs, a photo, and a jersey all in black marker. The numbers on the jersey are black, so he had to actually sign the mesh/jersey part (which is red). The autograph turned out great but I assume that it's a little tough signing "mesh", and the "M" is ever so slightly different. I wish there was an appeals process....

There is an appeal process, wait a few months and pay them again.

[mcgwirecom]

If you submit something and it fails do they put "Fail" DNA on it so the next time it comes in they just look for the DNA and fail it again?

If you ever get a chance to get his signature again I would highly suggest taking a smartphone and video him signing. There's almost no way to argue with that if you can see him, where he is signing and the finished product.

I will throw this one thought in. Back in the day I was one of the few people who would authenticate McGwire signatures. There were a few occasions where I would get a signature that was just signed badly. Meaning maybe it was rushed, or bumped or something out of the "ordinary". I made a decision to not authenticate items like that. I returned the money and told the person I thought it was probably good but I'd rather not have to explain why something was good when it didn't match up with the "usual" type signature.

[Lordstan]

Brendan,
Unfortunately it happens all the time. While I am a vocal critic of a lot of their work, in all fairness, it can be hard to authenticate every single auto everyone signed. This is especially true since the art of penmanship has taken a tank. The reality is that most forgers will say the same thing that you are. How many people got things in person? How many times have we had my father got it stories? A good authenticator is not swayed by a simple I got it in person story.(BTW I am not implying in any way that you're story is false)
The simple fact is that authenticators only provide an opinion. Their opinion can definitely be wrong, but many take their word as fact and not opinion. If your buyer is one of those people, you really have no recourse.
Sucks, but it is the way the current market works. Only option is to either sell to someone who is not impressed with the alphabets or consign to an auction that will get it certed as part of the sale. They APPEAR to get preferential treatment, so perhaps it would work better that way.

Mark V

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

There is an appeal process, wait a few months and pay them again.

So true.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

If we can't trust PSA on something that was signed in front of me, how can we trust them with everything else??

A: You can't. Grading and authentication (in the sports memorabilia world) is a scam.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

consign to an auction that will get it certed as part of the sale. They APPEAR to get preferential treatment, so perhaps it would work better that way.

Mark V

BINGO!!
And that is the shame of it, the AH's have the big accounts and they can exert undue influence.

[Bpm0014]

It's a shame. And I know that nothing is truly "black and white", but in the simplest of terms: If you can't authenticate something that was signed in front of me, you completely lose all credibility. Why should I trust anything else that you authenticate? The basketball which was signed 10 seconds before the jersey passes...and the jersey (which was signed 10 seconds after the basketball was) fails.

[packs]

I'm sure I'm in the minority but I'm actually glad that items sometimes get turned down even if they were signed in front of you. Jordan is one of the most forged autographs out there. If he signed it sloppy, I'd still want PSA to fail it rather than pass it. You can always submit again but I'd rather they be cautious when working with autographs like this one.

[deeg23]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm sure I'm in the minority but I'm actually glad that items sometimes get turned down even if they were signed in front of you. Jordan is one of the most forged autographs out there. If he signed it sloppy, I'd still want PSA to fail it rather than pass it. You can always submit again but I'd rather they be cautious when working with autographs like this one.

+1

[khkco4bls]

Usually when I have something signed in front of me I have someone take a photo of him signing it and the item. But really this is the exact reason why I stay away from order autographs

[Bpm0014]

I'd rather they be cautious when working with autographs like this one.

Easy for you to say (until you go to sell an autograph that was signed in front of you!).

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

It's a shame. And I know that nothing is truly "black and white", but in the simplest of terms: If you can't authenticate something that was signed in front of me, you completely lose all credibility. Why should I trust anything else that you authenticate? The basketball which was signed 10 seconds before the jersey passes...and the jersey (which was signed 10 seconds after the basketball was) fails.

Why should they believe you when you write "I got it signed in person?"

They must read that dozens a times day from the submissions that are sent in.

[Bpm0014]

I never told them I got it signed in person. I'm telling that here...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

I never told them I got it signed in person. I'm telling that here...

We hear that dozens of times a day!!!

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Leon

We hear that dozens of times a day!!!

+1....

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

It's a shame. And I know that nothing is truly "black and white", but in the simplest of terms: If you can't authenticate something that was signed in front of me, you completely lose all credibility. Why should I trust anything else that you authenticate? The basketball which was signed 10 seconds before the jersey passes...and the jersey (which was signed 10 seconds after the basketball was) fails.

Post a photo of it here.

[Bpm0014]

Here you go

[Bpm0014]

Pic 2

[Bpm0014]

Pic 3. All signed within 30 seconds of each other.

[Bpm0014]

Rest of baseball

[Bpm0014]

Baseball 2

[Bpm0014]

Same baseball

[Bpm0014]

Other photo signed the next day

[Bpm0014]

Close up. Again, the shirt, basketball and baseball (above) were all signed within 30 secs of each other. This photo here was signed the next day.

[Mr. Zipper]

I don't know Jordan well enough to comment on whether the jersey example would be considered atypical.

But, I can tell you that submitters often "salt" otherwise authentic submissions with a few bad items in hopes of sliding them through. The TPAs see it every day. Secondly, submitting Jordan in volume probably puts them on high alert, as it should.

It's unfortunate an authentic item was failed, and accuracy is always the primary goal. That said, I would rather see them err on the side of caution on high risk items.

The irony is, when they do pass atypical examples (that may very well be authentic), you have another group of collectors screaming, "How could they pass this junk?!?!"

[Bpm0014]

Only two things were submitted last week; the basketball-pass, jersey-fail. Everything else was submitted piece meal, one at a time. All have obviously passed. But I can appreciate what you are saying for sure...

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I don't know Jordan well enough to comment on whether the jersey example would be considered atypical.



The irony is, when they do pass atypical examples (that may very well be authentic), you have another group of collectors screaming, "How could they pass this junk?!?!"

Exactly. Although, in many cases the same group.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

Here you go

No way I would have passed that jersey.

[packs]

The jersey is a sloppy signature. That's likely why it failed. If they aren't sure, I'd rather they fail the item.

[Bpm0014]

I wouldn't disagree that it's sloppy, because it kind of is. I basically have a couple of minutes to get things signed. He signs a ton of autographs. He doesn't care if his signature is sloppy or not (and rightfully so). He's probably used to signing on the "flat" number part (the 2 or the 3), but I didn't have a silver pen. He signed it on the mesh and although it is dark and bold, it's kind of atypical. Oh well...

[drcy]

As I have often said, the authenticators and graders are offering an opinion, and how that opinion is taken is a matter of the collectors, bidders, dealers and auction houses. If collectors and dealers wrongly give too much iron-clad written-in-stone arbitration-of-truth weight to what is an opinion, that is the fault of the collectors and dealers not the opinion giver. Heck, the letters themselves state in black and white that they are offering an opinion.

People are often rightly (IMO) astonished and think it is ludicrous that a PSA 10 trading card sells for many times more than a PSA 9, but wrongly blame PSA for the price difference. PSA doesn't bid on anything or set the prices. It's the collectors and dealers who determine the price differential. The hobby of collectors and bidders could have determined that a PSA9 and PSA10 (or PSA6 and PSA7, etc) that look essentially the same in condition are worth the same or very similar and PSA wouldn't have had any say over that either.

For a number of reasons I won't go into here, I personally think the high grade graded card section of the hobby is ludicrous and stupid. I do give partial blame to the graders, but give more than half of the blame for the ostrich head in the sand buyers and sellers.

The sports memorabilia hobby is often run by money not common sense and logical thinking. Many people are concerned about the authenticity of the money not the authenticity of the memorabilia.