Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by brewing

No I didn't. While no hitters are impressive having them vs not having them isn't that big of a deal to me. Just like championships in a team sport.

Koufax was amazing during the World Series. I never said Koufax wasn't great. Even if Kershaw has been pedestrian like in the playoffs, the far superior regular season performance of over 2200 innings means more to me.

I did forget to leave out his ERA+ which helps highlight the different eras they pitched in.
Kershaw is 157 2nd highest All Time
Koufax is 131

Others mentioned
Grove 148
Randy Johnson 135
Plank 122

When you can’t pitch well against the best teams in the postseason, you shouldn’t even be in the discussion in my opinion. The only thing that matters is winning championships, not dominating bad teams pitching 6 or 7 innings. Kershaw has only has 25 complete games in 12 seasons. Koufax pitched 27 complete games in 1965 alone. Then he pitched 27 more complete games in 1966. Kershaw’s regular season really isn’t even superior since he is letting someone else pitch the most difficult innings when a pitcher is tiring. Make Kershaw pitch 27 complete games in a season and let’s see what his ERA would be.

The pitcher controls the ball on defense. Despite being a team sport, it is the pitcher that can win a championship. Just look at 1965 when the World Series was tied at 2-2. Koufax went out and pitched shutouts in game 5 and game 7. Why can’t Kershaw do that even once to bring the Dodgers a championship? The Dodgers have been good enough to make the postseason 9 times and are 0-9 because Kershaw has pitched poorly.

ERA+ just tells me how weak the pitching was in those eras. They weren’t competing against Spahn, Gibson, Marichal, Bunning, Perry and Sutton.

[egbeachley]

I always thought it was Lefty Grove who, in 1930, pitched a quadruple-crown leading MLB in Wins, ERA, Strikeputs, and Saves.

Decided to look it up in Baseball Refenence. They have pitching WAR. Grove was the best lefty at about 9% greater than Randy Johnson. Koufax didn’t make the top 20.

Grove also had a better 4-year streak than Koufax, although I don’t know why people use that as a metric

[G1911]

I find it extremely odd to see it argued that playing in a high offense era should somehow hurt a pitchers all time ranking, and that guys like Koufax who played in the easiest possible circumstances (pitching park, on a high mound, during a deadball era) must be better because there were many other great pitchers then. Dominating in tougher circumstances should be an advantage.


As for the 4 year peak arguments, I think this appears solely because it is the only way to try and argue Sandy (even though Grove and Kershaw both have equal or better peaks and better overall careers) is #1.

[71buc]

I like Spahn and Carlton

[FrankWakefield]

I saw Koufax pitch. And Randy Johnson, Spahn, and Carleton.

Koufax had his not quite great years, then he had his dominant years. I saw him when dominant. He was a durable craftsman on the mound, overpowering on one pitch then totally deceiving the hitter on the next pitch.

I didn't see Grove, but I think he's the answer to who's the best. And I think Spahn deserves recognition. I saw him at the end of his career pitching for the Giants one day against St. Louis. (I think McCarver got hurt or was hurt, and Uecker too, anyway they stopped the game and let Mike Shannon take some warmup catches as last hope catcher, and he caught the rest of the game.) Anyway, after reading James' Historical Baseball Abstract (I prefer the 1xt edition) I had to reconsider my thinking on the best lefty I saw... The man was a dominate pitcher and a war hero (not a modern 'he served' hero, but a WWII hero in combat actions.)

I do know when I'd listen to KMOX or WLW as a kid when the Cards or Reds were playing at night in LA, the odds were if Koufax was starting then the Reds or Cards were gonna lose, Wills or Gilliam would get on base, steal or get bunted over, then one of the Davis guys or Ron Fairly would drive them in. Seemed like a couple of runs would win a game out there. And the hell of it was that Drysdale was gonna do the same thing, only righthanded.

So I think it's Grove. For the numbers guys (I'm a bit of one somethimes), look at the career Wins Above Replacement. 26-Grove, 29-R. Johnson, 32-Spahn, and 321-Koufax.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I saw Koufax pitch. And Randy Johnson, Spahn, and Carleton.

Koufax had his not quite great years, then he had his dominant years. I saw him when dominant. He was a durable craftsman on the mound, overpowering on one pitch then totally deceiving the hitter on the next pitch.

I didn't see Grove, but I think he's the answer to who's the best. And I think Spahn deserves recognition. I saw him at the end of his career pitching for the Giants one day against St. Louis. (I think McCarver got hurt or was hurt, and Uecker too, anyway they stopped the game and let Mike Shannon take some warmup catches as last hope catcher, and he caught the rest of the game.) Anyway, after reading James' Historical Baseball Abstract (I prefer the 1xt edition) I had to reconsider my thinking on the best lefty I saw... The man was a dominate pitcher and a war hero (not a modern 'he served' hero, but a WWII hero in combat actions.)

I do know when I'd listen to KMOX or WLW as a kid when the Cards or Reds were playing at night in LA, the odds were if Koufax was starting then the Reds or Cards were gonna lose, Wills or Gilliam would get on base, steal or get bunted over, then one of the Davis guys or Ron Fairly would drive them in. Seemed like a couple of runs would win a game out there. And the hell of it was that Drysdale was gonna do the same thing, only righthanded.

So I think it's Grove. For the numbers guys (I'm a bit of one somethimes), look at the career Wins Above Replacement. 26-Grove, 29-R. Johnson, 32-Spahn, and 321-Koufax.

Frank

It is really great hearing from you. And, you described the Koufax story very well. I am somewhat older than you, and I saw him pitch when he started in Brooklyn.
Then, I followed him during the LA years because I had a feeling he would be great. His style of wind-up was impressive, quite compact and very effective.

However, the two Lefty's that haven't gotten any "play" in this entire thread are Eddie Plank and Lefty Gomez. I'm not that old that I have seen Plank play
But, I have read a lot about him....and, he is my man on the mound in any given season.
Lefty Gomez..I can say a lot about him; however, I leave you with this: I will place him above any other Southpaw when it's time for World Series play. I dare
anyone here to argue against Lefty's 6 - 0 W.S. record.

Changing Pitching styles....some one here mentioned Smoky Joe Wood. Last Summer we visited friends in Milford (Northeastern Pennsylvania), and I ran into
Smoky Joe Wood's Grandson. We had a great conversation, and I could sense that Wood's family cannot understand why Smoky Joe is not in the HOF.
His stats are as good (if not better) than pitchers currently in the HOF. Most notably his 1912 W.S. W-L 3 -1 record.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Frank

It is really great hearing from you. And, you described the Koufax story very well. I am somewhat older than you, and I saw him pitch when he started in Brooklyn.
Then, I followed him during the LA years because I had a feeling he would be great. His style of wind-up was impressive, quite compact and very effective.

However, the two Lefty's that haven't gotten any "play" in this entire thread are Eddie Plank and Lefty Gomez. I'm not that old that I have seen Plank play
But, I have read a lot about him....and, he is my man on the mound in any given season.
Lefty Gomez..I can say a lot about him; however, I leave you with this: I will place him above any other Southpaw when it's time for World Series play. I dare
anyone here to argue against Lefty's 6 - 0 W.S. record.

Changing Pitching styles....some one here mentioned Smoky Joe Wood. Last Summer we visited friends in Milford (Northeastern Pennsylvania), and I ran into
Smoky Joe Wood's Grandson. We had a great conversation, and I could sense that Wood's family cannot understand why Smoky Joe is not in the HOF.
His stats are as good (if not better) than pitchers currently in the HOF. Most notably his 1912 W.S. W-L 3 -1 record.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Sorry Ted, but Koufax blows him away. Koufax has more Innings Pitched ERA, Shutouts, Strikeouts. Its not even close. Gomez has two more wins And that's in 4 world series.

[brewing]

Originally Posted by rats60

When you can’t pitch well against the best teams in the postseason, you shouldn’t even be in the discussion in my opinion. The only thing that matters is winning championships, not dominating bad teams pitching 6 or 7 innings. Kershaw has only has 25 complete games in 12 seasons. Koufax pitched 27 complete games in 1965 alone. Then he pitched 27 more complete games in 1966. Kershaw’s regular season really isn’t even superior since he is letting someone else pitch the most difficult innings when a pitcher is tiring. Make Kershaw pitch 27 complete games in a season and let’s see what his ERA would be.

The pitcher controls the ball on defense. Despite being a team sport, it is the pitcher that can win a championship. Just look at 1965 when the World Series was tied at 2-2. Koufax went out and pitched shutouts in game 5 and game 7. Why can’t Kershaw do that even once to bring the Dodgers a championship? The Dodgers have been good enough to make the postseason 9 times and are 0-9 because Kershaw has pitched poorly.

ERA+ just tells me how weak the pitching was in those eras. They weren’t competing against Spahn, Gibson, Marichal, Bunning, Perry and Sutton.

You win! Can I count you in to join my campaign to get Mickey Lolich into the Hall of Fame. His World Series performance against the defending World Champs in 1968 was amazing.