'55 all americans

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Posted By: macboube

I have just had approx. five hundred 1955 Topps All American cards graded. They are all from unopened cello packs and only I (and PSA) have seen and touched them. The gradings have been all over the map, with many inconsistencies throughout every submission. Obviously the cards main concern is centering, however, it seems more often than not, cards centered well within the printed PSA guidelines for grade 9 or 10, do not achieve that grade. Particularly 10's. It seems there is this unwritten rule for graders not to give out 10's, even if everything is well within the framework of their guidelines. It is frustrating and unfair. It seems that having Vintage cards from unopened packs does not overcome the nuances and subjectivity factors from the graders. It almost feels detrimental. Also, I know many of these cards would grade 9.5 if there was such a thing. Why there is not is utterly ridiculous. How can PSA leave out that half grade and only include half grades through 8.5? That is just moronic. Comments? Suggestions?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I agree that it is dubious to have have half grades on some numbers but not others. My guess is that PSA wanted to preserve the perceived sanctity and market value of the 10s. Obviously, market value should not be used as factor in determining an objective grading system for condition, but PSA is a business and they're not going to introduce a grading system they believe will lose them money.

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Posted By: Doug

Did you get any 10s at all? I used to submit a ton of early '80s Topps cards that I personally pulled straight from packs and I only got three 10s out of all the cards I sent in.

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

If you had posted prior to submitting we all could have told you not to expect many if any 10's. Also you should be happy if you pulled alot of 9's on 55 AA They will bring big money even on commons. I never submit anything before 1980 expecting 10's, no matter how nice. that is just the way it is, not saying its right or wrong that is just how it is. PS should be on Football or postwar board. Also how about some scans.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Most buyers of high end cards are going to both look at the number grade and the card itself. Their pricing isn't based strictly on what SGC or PSA says. The real 9.5 may be when bidders price one 9 over another 9 because they agree the first card is superior.

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Posted By: Steve

Just because a card comes straight from a pack does not mean
it is a mint card.


Steve

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Posted By: macboube

Out of approx. 500 cards submitted for grading, with attention paid to centering and corners before submission (the gloss and sharpness is always pack fresh), I rec'd 18 Gem Mint 10's on my AA's. Thus far, the Pop report went from 7 to 25. I'm not yet done with submissions for reviews, as some 9's have already bumped. I am pissed as I recently submitted a perfect Rockne and a perfect Horseman to be done same day and paid $250 each for grading, and they only came back as 9's. They are so immaculate, it is impossible for them not to be 10's. I calipered the borders and they are both about 47-53. I'll post some scans of 10's at a later date. The best 10's thus far are Hutson, Baugh, Rockne, and Nevers. Again, I understand PSA does not want to give out 10's on anything vintage, however, why have standards then? The only standard I see is "subjectivity". In addition, I won't be satisfied until I have a Four Horseman grade 10. That is now my life's mission.

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Posted By: Matt

Just one man's opinion, but if the card is perfect in your eyes, then be happy with it. It shouldn't matter if PSA agrees with your assessment. Maybe my eyes are bad from looking at too many caramels, but you could show me a mix of 100 9s and 10s blind and I'm sure my guesses would have little correlation to what PSA thought was a 9 vs. a 10.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I love grading. You should have had an auction house submit them for you, you would have received more 10's.

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Posted By: Eric Pugh

there is only one problem with grading: some people think it is actually objective.

the fact is that grading is so darn "subjective" it is a bit of a joke really.

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Posted By: leon

To the original poster. First of all welcome to our forum. If you will read at the top of the page this particular forum is for Pre-wwII cards. We have a forum for post war cards and, for the most part, that is where this should have gone....take care

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Posted By: macboube

I understand the categories, however, I wanted the opinions and feedback from far more collectors, like yourself, then the few and far between on the Postwar football blog. The pre war category seems to have tenfold any thing else here, and seems likely to find more intelligent and serious collectors. If I crossed the line, accept my apology. Also, having found several unopened 53 year old Topps cards and sharing my experiences with them I would think to be found as interesting to most everyone here.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

that had an auction company had them graded on your behalf to be auctioned, that they would have gained a half grade or two here and there.

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Posted By: macboube

Or a large dealer? I have been recommended to consider utilizing Steve Hart's services at the Baseball Card Exchange. I know he is now used by PSA for veryifying the authenticity of unopened material. He seems like a straight shooter. Anybody have experiences with him good, bad or otherwise?

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Posted By: Bob

I agree with Tom. Years ago I had a major auction house tell me (upon my submission) that they were going to submit my cards for grading because they could get higher grades than I could. Draw your own conclusions....

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Posted By: leon

It's not a national security issue for posting post war here but there are rules for a reason. I, more than anyone, understand the participation across all of our forums. I fully appreciate what you said. That being the case the correct way to do it would have been to post over there on the post war side...and, after a day or two, if there was very little response, then post over here. For the record I don't consider our post war friends any less intelligent (most are the same that post here anyway) than us pre war guys...Once again, not a big deal but I thought I would let you know how it would be preferred....take care and happy holidays

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Posted By: macboube

Fyi - I posted the same at the same time on both the Baseball and Football Postwar blogs and thus far have a grand total of one response. Again, if my '55 All American questions and experiences are out of line here, I am gone...............No big deal.

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Posted By: leon

If you post on both sides at exactly the same time what do you expect? Most of our post war guys are pre war also so they would answer here instead.... In the future if you post over there give it a day...then try the other sides if you get little, or no, response.........And if you have any questions you can always email me....thanks again for your participation and happy collecting

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Posted By: Steve Murray

I think we're being a little too technical on the "Vintage" versus "Postwar" distinction.

I don't think the post has anything to do with 55 All Americans though it was titled as such. It just as easily could have applied to unopened packs of 1933 Goudeys and had the same effect, i.e. questioning the third party grading system.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I believe the original poster would have more success on the CU/PSA boards:
http://www.psacard.com/message_boards.chtml

Sorry to be a Grinch, but I disagree with Steve a little on this one--to give an educated or at least useful response one would need to be familiar with the set in question. Here we are being asked about a post-war football set and the nuances of PSA 9s and 10s. This is a pre-war baseball forum, and you would be hard pressed to find many if any who chase even pre-war baseball PSA 10s. So wrong time-frame, wrong sport and wrong focus.

Still, I'll gladly abide the flurry of comments from others in this forum who chase '55 All-Americans in PSA 9 and 10, just as much as I'll appreciate the flow of insightful comment on why there should or should not be a 9.5 grade.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I saw the main point of the initial post as PSA's grading and half grades. 1955 football cards were merely the vehicle that lead to the post. Thus, I saw it as an appropriate topic for this section. Notice that the post produced responses mostly about grading.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

I will side with Steve and David on this one, as it's a topic that is of great interest to most card collectors. After all, I'm sure PSA would treat a 1950's issue in the same fashion it would the Goudeys of two decades before. In actuality, I think it is a pertinent topic which could/should be posted in every card forum. It's a very interesting subject, even to this non-card collector.

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Posted By: John S

Steve,

Well put. The topic is more about grading. The poster has received little(and will not receive much more) attention in the football section. There are about 8 to 10 regular posters over on the dark side.

Thanks for the post and welcome to NET54. The grading issue aside; sounds like you have some incredible cards!

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Posted By: leon

I guess the small issue I had was really with the title itself. If it had said...issues with PSA Grading....instead of something that is in conflict with what this forum is, then I might not have taken it the wrong way...But ya know what.....who cares....happy holidays...

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It has Jim Thorpe in it, and Amos Alonzo Stagg coached Pre-War college baseball at the same time he coached football.

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Posted By: Anthony N.

To answer a previous question, I can't say enough good things about Steve Hart. Honest, personable, a pleasure to deal with.
I"d say the same for Levi as well, who also seems to have a strong relationship with PSA. I don't know if either is taking submissions, and not sure if it would make a difference to your grades if they did, but you can't go wrong with either one.
I think the bigger issue is that grading is very subjective. As the saying goes, if the grade doesn't fit, you must resubmit!

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Johnnie Cochran collected cards?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Bobby Reynolds played minor league baseball.

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Posted By: David Smith

My take on this?

1) PSA is happy because they just made some money in a bad economy.

2) Anybody who owns unopened packs of 1955 Topps All American football cards is happy because they now have something that is rarer and probably more valuable than before.

David

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Posted By: macboube

You said what I expected to hear about Steve Hart. I really appreciate your feedback and honesty. Sorry Leon, seems my title may have been inappropriate for the prewar forum, but it looks as if the topics are acceptable and insightful.

I must say, I have been treated well (service wise) by PSA. The only problems I have with over 500 submissions in the past few months is that major inconsistency in their graders sticking not adhering to their own printed grading standards, and not offering a half grade between 9 & 10 (even if it is to maintain a certain "aura" about a gem mint card) is really doing a dis-service to the collector.

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

Mr. Macdoube, could you please describe how you examine your cards and i may be able to give you a hint or two to let you better see the card in the same atmosphere and use the same methods as the graders. in all honesty though i can not feel sorry for your grades a 10 is fairly hard to justify in most vintage cases as their is always some flaw on any card, even modern, with the exception of some of these rounded corner metal cards that are produced today. Your best bet is to just keep submitting. Is this fair ,No, is this the way it should be, NO, but from 16 years experience submitting cards that is just the way it is. You are not going to come to the game this late and change the rules. I am sorry if you dont like that but that is reality. I agree with you that it should not be but it is what it is. With the $$$ these 10's will bring I just cant feel sorry for your grades. If your 9's are truly as outstanding as you state they will bring a premium over an average 9 anyway.
PS I am impressed with that nice a collection of one of my favorite sets.

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Posted By: Eric Pugh

If you dont mind sharing, what's the history behind these pristine specimens? I would love to know as i am sure most everyone here would like to know as well. It's not everyday we learn of such a find of mint 50 year old cards. THanks!

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Posted By: Andrew Saboley

Just wondering if anyone else is having doubts about somebody finding 500 mint 1955 Topps All Americans in unopened cello packs after 53 years?

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Posted By: macboube

OK - I may get in trouble for this post from Leon, but anyway, it seems a lot of you are interested in the AA's. Several cello packs were found in a Southern California closet by my close friend. His father was formerly an owner of a toy store that was in business in the 50's. His Dad had some Trading Card Guild boxes leftover from when he closed shop about 50 years ago. Apparently, he really liked the set (who doesn't?) and just tucked these boxes away for about 30 years. Upon his death in the late 80's my pal found them in his closet and showed them to me, as I have avidly collected cards since I was a kid in the 60's. I knew they were incredible even then, as unopened material was starting to get a lot of press and notoriety. I gave him some of the values then, and I think in the late 80's the Thorpe booked for around $50. I recommended that he sit on them, keep them unopened, and just monitor their values from time and time. Fortunately, money has not been a huge object for him, so the cards did not need to be sold, or even opened.

Just to be sure you understand '55 Topps AA's, it was their first football set, focusing on the greatest collegiate football players in history. A 100 card set starting with Herman Hickman and ending with Wilbur "Fats" Henry. Two top cards are The Horseman and Thorpe. There are several other stars, rookies, and Hall-of-Famers, and Heisman winners in the set. Two error cards exist (including Byron "Whizzer" White). The cards are colorful, and much like '55 Baseball, horizontally formatted (except for a few vert.'s)and each one has these classic black and white background gridiron shots taken of Pro (not college) football players battling in action at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. They are hugely known for being very poorly cut and extremely difficult to find in high grades.

These cellos originally sold for 10 cents a pack and contained 19 or 20 cards. The cellophane itself, for the most part, remains very well intact. Tightly sealed and not horribly discolored. We have cracked open several and know for certain now that Topps packaged half the cards in the set in cellos, and the other half in wax packs. Fortunately for us, almost all the key cards and short prints are in the cello packs.

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Posted By: macboube

Dude, they are real. They are mint in every respect except for centering on some, and corners on very few (as tightly wrapped cellos sometimes bugger up the corners of the top and bottom card on the packs).

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

If I may ask, are you going to be selling these? And if so did you happen to get a Bobby Reynolds? About what should I expect to pay for a PSA 9 Reynolds?

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Posted By: leon

I am not that bad of a guy....we are already here and I, and we, appreciate you explaining the find. My only small concern at this point is that if you are going to talk about a grading company you need to be careful of anonymity. I think we are over the posting venue issue....again, when I see "'55 all americans" as the title, and it's not from an every day poster, and on the main board, I have a legitimate concern.....as far as this thread goes...please keep going. (It was never personal, btw).....take care

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Posted By: fred

i would just love to see the scans of these cards. i have a complete set in psa 6-7 with a coupole of 8s but i would love to see these

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Posted By: macboube

I think we only have two Bob Reynolds in grade 9 (no tens) and we will be keeping these for our registered sets. I will check that and confirm if you are seriously interested. I have a 8.5 that is damn good, and I can post a scan if you like. Thus far we have not yet sold any high grade cards. In 2008 one Reynolds 8.5 has sold ($430.00) and only one 8 sold ($390.00). The SMR lists an 8 at $390.00 plus. If I were to sell the 8.5, I would likely be looking for around $500.00.

Thanks,

Jim

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Posted By: Anonymous

I find this story and the pics very interesting. Add 10-11 years to each of the timelines. We could have 500 pristine, fresh from the wrapper, 1933 Goudeys.

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Posted By: NickM

and you're complaining??????

As far as the complaint that there is no 9.5, there really isn't room between the 9 and 10 standards to create a whole separate grade (which would have to have some set of grading standards in between the existing 9 and 10 standards). Beckett and SGC have shown that the result of having half-grades at that level is to make the effective top grade the 9.5 (98), with the 10 (100) being almost a random luck event.

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Posted By: macboube

If you scrutinized every submission and grade we have received that is 9 or 10, the way we have, and if you are any kind of perceptive and intelligent person, you would understand that there should be many more tens. PSA has indicated on each review submission why cards do not bump, and several times, their indications are just dead wrong. For sure. It is obvious that you, and many high end collectors feel that there needs to be a mystique, an aura, a holy grail about the grade 10. How stupid and un-objective is that?

Just like only having half-grades thru 9. Why should 9 thru 10 be any different? To maintain the mystique? Come on.

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

cant wait to see the scans! WOW PSA 10 PACKS!!!!! AMAZING

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Posted By: Steve

Mac you can tell the difference between a nine and a ten?

Steve

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Posted By: macboube

If you examine the 18 PSA 10's and 70 or so PSA 9's that we have had graded recently, knowing all are fresh from the same packs, you can definetely pick out several 9's that appear as good (if not better) than some of the 10's. In our pre-submission evaluations we use calipers, intense and proper lighting, and jeweler's loops. We feel that of those 70 or so 9's, at least 15 of them are as good as any on the 18 tens. Again, it appears PSA and many of you (The Prewar vintage baseball guys) feel that a GEM MINT grade 10 has this aura about it and needs preservation for the select few and far between. Not grading a card that qualifies well within PSA's grading guidelines a 10 because of this is nonsense. Duh!

p.s. - It is plainly obvious that many (not all) of the prewar dudes here don't see many 10's in anything, as they are freaking out ecstatically with a T206 or the like that gets a grade 3 or 4.

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Posted By: Rob D.

What a relief to see this thread pop back up to the top. And with interesting, new information, too!

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Posted By: leon

Rob- I couldn't agree more. Since we are talking 10's I thought I would show the only 10 I am interested in....(besides my wife, of course)..

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Posted By: Steve

Mac is it possible that the 10's that you did get should/could have been 9's?


Is that thing turbo charged?


Steve

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Posted By: macboube

Yes, there is one 10 in particular we were amazed that it did get a 10. It is the worst of the 18 and we thought it should have been a 9.

Leon, I will only finish and respond to my existing threads in YOUR forum if there are any pertinent and poignant comments. I have relegated myself to the WORTHLESS AND USELESS postwar forum section. thank you.

In the meantime, you can continue checking and adding your candid remarks re. my posts. It is no bother to me.

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Posted By: Scott Dango

this is such a great thread....still waiting for any visual proof of this "story"

ps... this post did not bump this thread to the top, it was already bumped to the top by the OP (again)