1952 Topps House gray/yellow

[flkersn]

As many of you know, I recently bought a PSA 4 1952 Topps House with a gray back and yellow logo. It has to be one of the rarest cards in the set, although unrecognized by TPG at this point.

This card is available in trade for a package that includes a gray back Reiser.

Bill

[SMPEP]

... that card is not as rare as the seller claimed. The seller claimed this is the only one and at least 2 more are known to exist. That does make it as rare as the Reiser currently - although in all likelihood, there are probably at least 5-7 more Reisers that will turn upeventually. It is unlikley that more of the House yellow tiger card will turn up though. (If there are more than the 3 known ones, then 6 were originally printed, not 3 as I suspect).

I did contact the seller and informed him that he was misleading the public ... but he wasn't honest enough to revise his description ... which is why I refused to bid on it.

But the Reiser isn't as rare as everyone thinks unless something very weird happened (i.e., someone threw away a large collection of the grey backs back in the 1950s - which is highly unlikely given how diffuse these grey backs were in their distribution patterns).

Cheers,
Patrick

Ps - The pop reports on the Reiser are wrong. One labeled as a grey back is in fact a white back. One labeled as a white back is in fact a grey back. Net wash, but the pop report is inaccurate.

[Zach Wheat]

I knew you would be the man that would know the population figures Patrick. Thanks for the info as I've learned a lot about the gray backs from you over the years. I hope you both find your gray back Resiers.

Z

[Exhibitman]

Pics please

[SMPEP]

As requested ... here are the three known ones. I do not have copies of photos of the backs of these - but the first one is from a lot of grey backs sold ... by Mile High (?) in 2005 (?) ... my memory is rusty. I've personally seen the back of the other one.

Cheers,
Patrick

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

... that card is not as rare as the seller claimed. The seller claimed this is the only one and at least 2 more are known to exist. That does make it as rare as the Reiser currently - although in all likelihood, there are probably at least 5-7 more Reisers that will turn upeventually. It is unlikley that more of the House yellow tiger card will turn up though. (If there are more than the 3 known ones, then 6 were originally printed, not 3 as I suspect).

I did contact the seller and informed him that he was misleading the public ... but he wasn't honest enough to revise his description ... which is why I refused to bid on it.

But the Reiser isn't as rare as everyone thinks unless something very weird happened (i.e., someone threw away a large collection of the grey backs back in the 1950s - which is highly unlikely given how diffuse these grey backs were in their distribution patterns).

Cheers,
Patrick

Ps - The pop reports on the Reiser are wrong. One labeled as a grey back is in fact a white back. One labeled as a white back is in fact a grey back. Net wash, but the pop report is inaccurate.

Patrick,

Why is the mid-series Reiser Gray back, in particular so rare? It seems several people going after all mid-series gray backs are missing the Reiser.
And why do you say that there are unlikely to be more than 3 House yellow mid series gray backs? Is it due to the error or due to something else.

If you don't want to discuss this in an open forum, I understand.


Z

[SMPEP]

Hi Zach,

That's an easy and hard question to answer. The easy part is ... it's a DP on the sheet versus most cards being a TP. So the Reiser should be one of the tougher ones to find.

BUT there are 19 other cards that are also DPs ... and some of those have 10+ known copies (with others ungraded), and none have as few known copies. Like I said earlier, either Reiser got thrown away more often, or there are more out there to be discovered. Given the rate at which the Maxwell (a previous tie for a s few with Reiser) has been found in recent years, my money is on them being in collections and people not recognizing that.

Cheers,
Patrick

[Exhibitman]

Can someone post a pic of the gray back?

[SMPEP]

Here's the back of the one that Bill won. The one form the Mile High auction never showed the back in the auction listing. Not sure I ever took a shot of the back of the third one when I saw it - but both in the photo were grey backs.

Thanks,
Patrick

[Republicaninmass]

Nobody has a Reiser



--End of thread----

I HAVE been looking!

[Zach Wheat]

Has anyone ever confirmed a mid series gray back Reiser?

Z

[ALR-bishop]

Zach-- I have heard you can find them in the 52 Christmas packs

[SMPEP]

Al - I assume that is a joke I am missing? (I've checked for evidence of this and have never seen any indications that teh christmas packs have grey backs in them.)

[SMPEP]

Ps - And ... Ted ... at least 4 people have Reisers.

[ALR-bishop]

I am confident that Zach will not miss it . But I would feel guilty if there is a sudden run on 52 Christmas packs

[Republicaninmass]

NOBODy has an "extra" Reisers!

I know where there are 3, they arent moving. But my name is on the short list for the estate sale

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I am confident that Zach will not miss it . But I would feel guilty if there is a sudden run on 52 Christmas packs

I think you are overestimating my intelligence Al 😊

[toppcat]

Any more theories on gray back distribution? It seems to me they could have been printed on some spare stock to finish off a run and then distributed in vending or cello, or they were just returns/overstock sold by Card Collectors Co after the fact.

[flkersn]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Hi Zach,

That's an easy and hard question to answer. The easy part is ... it's a DP on the sheet versus most cards being a TP. So the Reiser should be one of the tougher ones to find.

BUT there are 19 other cards that are also DPs ... and some of those have 10+ known copies (with others ungraded), and none have as few known copies. Like I said earlier, either Reiser got thrown away more often, or there are more out there to be discovered. Given the rate at which the Maxwell (a previous tie for a s few with Reiser) has been found in recent years, my money is on them being in collections and people not recognizing that.

Cheers,
Patrick

Which 20 cards do you consider DPs versus TPs? Or do you just go by the Pop reports?

[tombocombo]

Cards 181 183 185 187 189 seem quite difficult in the cream let alone the gray back variation. Informed the seller that this is the 3rd known copy on the Frank House gray/yellow. The 3rd series is rarer than originally thought. Cards 171 to 190 in general are difficult.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by tombocombo

Cards 181 183 185 187 189 seem quite difficult in the cream let alone the gray back variation. Informed the seller that this is the 3rd known copy on the Frank House gray/yellow. The 3rd series is rarer than originally thought. Cards 171 to 190 in general are difficult.

Hi Tom,

We've corresponded several times in the past and I purchased a '52 variation from you recently. Why do you suspect these cards are more difficult to obtain? I know you track pops of the 52 Topps set and are very familiar with all of the variations?

Just curious as to your view....

Z

[SMPEP]

Cards #171-190 were double printed on the sheet, and the cards #131-170 were triple printed. Unlike a lot of theories, the full 1952 sheet had 200 cards, not 100 cards. They were printed on Lord Baltimore presses with a splitter attached in the midle that cut the sheets into two sections. this explains the common, but wrong theory that there were A and B sheets.

Cheers,
Patrick

[flkersn]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Cards #171-190 were double printed on the sheet, and the cards #131-170 were triple printed. Unlike a lot of theories, the full 1952 sheet had 200 cards, not 100 cards. They were printed on Lord Baltimore presses with a splitter attached in the midle that cut the sheets into two sections. this explains the common, but wrong theory that there were A and B sheets.

Cheers,
Patrick

Thanks for the information. I believe you, but...I am having trouble with the math. At the risk of inviting ridicule, I offer the following:

40 cards TP is 120, 20 cards DP is 40, for a total of 160 cards on a 200-card sheet. What am I doing wrong? Maybe my brain is too small.

Bill

[ALR-bishop]

I remember him. He was a tracker for the U.S. cavalry, who made a cameo appearance in Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I remember him. He was a tracker for the U.S. cavalry, who made a cameo appearance in Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid

Hmmm, I always thought they were an early 70's acid rock group.

[flkersn]

Originally Posted by flkersn

Thanks for the information. I believe you, but...I am having trouble with the math. At the risk of inviting ridicule, I offer the following:

40 cards TP is 120, 20 cards DP is 40, for a total of 160 cards on a 200-card sheet. What am I doing wrong? Maybe my brain is too small.

Bill

Does anybody have an opinion?

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by flkersn

Does anybody have an opinion?

If the series were indeed only 60 cards, that would be correct. If not, I assume the remaining cards were single printed. It would work out if Patrick were referring to 2 half sheets of 100 cards each......and each half sheet had card numbers 171 to 190 single printed with the remaining cards double printed. This equals both the number of cards presumed to be printed in the series....60.....and the total number of cards printed per half sheet of 100 cards.

In Sy Berger's original article on creating the 1952 Topps set, he mentioned he cut and pasted the master cards at his home over his living room table. However, I have not noticed (nor have I paid close attention) to variations in these 40 cards. You would expect to find 40 cards in the 3rd series with variations.

Z

[flkersn]

Thanks for the clarification. Indeed, 40 DP and 20 SP (or that 2:1 ratio) does work; 3:2 did not.

I appreciate your responding.

Bill

[SMPEP]

This is what I get when I post without checking my notes! It should be DPs versus SPs. Here is the layout:

3rd series:
131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140
141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150
151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160
161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170
171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180

181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190
131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140
141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150
151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160
161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170

Sorry for the confusion.
Patrick

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

This is what I get when I post without checking my notes! It should be DPs versus SPs. Here is the layout:

3rd series:
131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140
141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150
151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160
161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170
171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180

181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190
131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140
141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150
151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160
161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170

Sorry for the confusion.
Patrick

Patrick,

Did you get this info from viewing an uncut sheet?

Z

[flkersn]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

This is what I get when I post without checking my notes! It should be DPs versus SPs. Here is the layout:

3rd series:
131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140
141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150
151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160
161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170
171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180

181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190
131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140
141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150
151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160
161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170

Sorry for the confusion.
Patrick

Just for the heck of it I looked at the PSA pop reports. I summed all the cards with the normal cream back from #131-170 graded by PSA--16,976. Then I looked at all the cards with cream back from #171-190 graded by PSA--7,388. This is a 2.3:1 ratio.

The overall ratio of creams to grays graded by PSA is 31:1. The real ratio is probably a lot higher since only better-looking creams would be sent for grading while most grays will be sent. The ratio of cream to gray in the 131-170 subset is 29.47 and in the 171-190 subset it is 35.35.

Not sure what it all means, but:

First, the totals are generally consistent with the 2:1 ratio suggested for the sheet.

Second it seems to suggest that the 171-190 cards are rarer relative to the 131-170 in gray backs than in cream.

Perhaps this suggests what many of you have said for years--that the gray backs simply did not wear as well over the years (note the paucity of high grade grays) and disappeared. Might it also say something about the distribution method?

Anyway, food for thought and comment. Perhaps no one is interested in this but me, but it's raining here and I was looking for something interesting to do and this was as close as I could come.

Bill

[SMPEP]

I used to look at population reports too. But I think that's a misguided way to look at it. What you get in graded cards is high grade cards. That's a bit random. And cards laid out poorly on the sheet (Gus Bell talking to you!) are always underrepresented. Plus, there's an incentive to get a card graded for every number (so you can have a full set). So I actually think the better methodology is to count total cards for sale on Ebay. This reflect who set builders need and don't need.

Cheers,
Patrick

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

I used to look at population reports too. But I think that's a misguided way to look at it. What you get in graded cards is high grade cards. That's a bit random. And cards laid out poorly on the sheet (Gus Bell talking to you!) are always underrepresented. Plus, there's an incentive to get a card graded for every number (so you can have a full set). So I actually think the better methodology is to count total cards for sale on Ebay. This reflect who set builders need and don't need.

Cheers,
Patrick

I was tracking T201 Mecca Double Folders in the same way to try to determine which ones where quadruple printed versus the single printed cards based upon population reports. After a lot of data collecting I realized I had skewed results as star cards or condition sensitive cards were submitted for grading more frequently than other cards.

Z

[steve B]

As long as you take them in a general sense, and overall ratio is general enough, the population reports can be handy.

I've looked at the numbers for T206 a lot, and overall the HOF players appear to be submitted roughly twice as often as commons. That holds for all the fairly common backs, and looks like it might for the tougher backs as well but the sample size is too small. (Like maybe 10 of a HOFer and 5 for a common for a fairly tough back, lower numbers for the really tough ones) The really difficult cards and the really popular ones break the curve. By the pop reports Magie (A somewhat rare card) is more common than the Magee which is a popular and slightly tough common.

Were the T201 Hof ers graded about twice as often as the commons?

Of course prewar the condition isn't skewed towards the higher grades. Which does complicate things a bit.

Steve B

[SMPEP]

Hi Steve,

I think the usefulness of populations reports may vary set by set, and year (decade?) by year. For 1952 Topps, you're not really dealing with rarities (with the exception of the grey backs) to complete the set. The challenge is more budget related. On the flip side, my other set of collecting interest is the 1923 W572s. The population lists tell you a lot more in that case (especially since many cards have 0 or 1 graded sample). There are obvious unrecognized short prints in that set and using the population report can be very helpful to figure out the set.

But back to the 1952 Topps set, the 1952 population report reflects three things (I think): 1) people submitting high grade cards (regardless of player), 2) stars get graded (these are more resalable), and 3) complete set builders. So when I was trying to figure out the ratios, I found it to be more useful to look at what's on sale on Ebay.

On Ebay, if a card is rarer, fewer people will have it for sale, and when it comes up for sale, more people will buy (unless the price is ridiculous). So if you see fewer, you know this is a shorter print. If a card is more common, there will be more of them and lower demand, so more of them will sit on Ebay for a while. So if you use Ebay as the source (a lot more work), you will see the ratios much more clearly. Both between cards in a given series, as well as between series.

Cheers,
Patrick

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by steve B

As long as you take them in a general sense, and overall ratio is general enough, the population reports can be handy.

.......Were the T201 Hof ers graded about twice as often as the commons?

Of course prewar the condition isn't skewed towards the higher grades. Which does complicate things a bit.

Steve B

Not so much all of the HOFers.....but Cobb was certainly coming up quite a bit more than anticipated. In that set Cobb was at least quadruple printed while most others were double printed.

Z