Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Tony and Jeremy

I really appreciate your posts. Both of you have amplified on a lot of factors which I have presented here in my earlier posts.

Jeremy....it would be great if you can show us your New Orleans Times Picayune papers with the Coupon Advertisements (1909-1910 )
depicting different Sportsmen scenarios.
Thanks again,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I agree 100% if such an ad exist I would change my opinion and say they
should be included in the T206 set and they were just another T206 rule
breaker.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I agree 100% if such an ad exist I would change my opinion and say they
should be included in the T206 set and they were just another T206 rule
breaker.

Hey Guys - Sorry, been away at Volleyball Tourneys the past serveral days... I still need to read and catch up on this thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned... The Federal Leaguers seem to be key to the time difference in the Type 1 and Type 2's, correct !? Burdick seem to get the Type 2 dating correct as that set is loaded with Federal leaguer's (Federal League 1913-15) and a perfect example is Al Bridwell 1914 Type 2 card - St. Louis Terriers Fed league team. Bridwell is also featured in the Type 2 set with a Nashville card having spent time bouncing around SL a bit. There are other examples in the Type 2 set of Minor League/Federal Leaguer's who are not featured in the Type 1 set as well. To me it seems fairly obvious the 4 Nashville players featured in ATC/American Litho 1909-11 are Bay, Bernhard, Perdue, and Ellam. Those 4 Nashville players are absent in the Type 2 and 3 sets as well as the obvious blue lettering which distinguishes the 2&3 sets from the Type 1. Two Clear examples that Type 1 were most likely not printed in and around the time of the Type 2 and 3 sets.

Pat - Thanks for all the advertisement examples of OM & Hindu... I think that may be what I have buried in my collection. I will dig it up at some point and verify... Too big to scan, and I haven't looked at it in years... Regardless of an advertisement, sure that is clear proof, but Coupon Type 1 cards are so rare, I doubt they had a Advertising campaign like the other ATC brands. While it would be nice to have a clearly dated advertisement as proof, I think its clear by the Federal league example aforementioned and the 4 Nashville players mirroring the T206 4 Nashville players that its more likely the Coupons were produced around 1909-11 than around 1913-19 like the Type 2 and 3's with blue lettering and glossy/thicker cardboard. It's only a matter of time as type 1's lean way more towards the 1910 date, than they do any other date imho.

Thanks, J

[Pat R]

Thanks for the reply Jeremy. My reasons for excluding them from the
T206 set is similar to your reasons for separating them from the Type 1 and 2's.

When I look at the T213-1's they stand out from the way any of the T206
backs were printed.

The T213-1's have three different groups represented in the 68 cards.

I randomly grabbed one of each from my collection as an example.

img840.jpg


Excluding Piedmont which was used on every card in the set with the exception
of Demmitt and O'Hara St. Louis these three cards are not found with the same
back on any of the T206 backs and the same thing is true for any combination
of one card from each group.

Then you have the minor league players. All of the 350 series backs have minor league players and most of them have over 40% but there isn't a
single minor league player in the T213-1's.

Other people have said that it looks like they reused some of the T206 plates/artwork after the printing of the T206's and I feel the same way
when I look at the group of cards used for the T213-1's.

The following is pure speculation... We know from many of the old newspaper articles that inserting the "baseball pictures" was a big success at the
time. I see the T213-1's as a cheap trial promotion. Print them with the old T206 plates on thinner stock and see how it goes. They find it's
a success so they have them printed on thicker cardboard and decide to change the captions as a cheap way to put their own brand stamp on them
without having to make a bunch of new plates.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Thanks for the reply Jeremy. My reasons for excluding them from the
T206 set is similar to your reasons for separating them from the Type 1 and 2's.

When I look at the T213-1's they stand out from the way any of the T206
backs were printed.

The T213-1's have three different groups represented in the 68 cards.

I randomly grabbed one of each from my collection as an example.

Attachment 339932


Excluding Piedmont which was used on every card in the set with the exception
of Demmitt and O'Hara St. Louis these three cards are not found with the same
back on any of the T206 backs and the same thing is true for any combination
of one card from each group.

Then you have the minor league players. All of the 350 series backs have minor league players and most of them have over 40% but there isn't a
single minor league player in the T213-1's.

Other people have said that it looks like they reused some of the T206 plates/artwork after the printing of the T206's and I feel the same way
when I look at the group of cards used for the T213-1's.

The following is pure speculation... We know from many of the old newspaper articles that inserting the "baseball pictures" was a big success at the
time. I see the T213-1's as a cheap trial promotion. Print them with the old T206 plates on thinner stock and see how it goes. They find it's
a success so they have them printed on thicker cardboard and decide to change the captions as a cheap way to put their own brand stamp on them
without having to make a bunch of new plates.

Pat - If the Coupon Type 1's were regionally released during the time frame with the other 16 ATC brands released between 1909-11 in New Orleans/South wouldn't they want to stick to the Southern League players and known Big league players of the day and not get into Minor league players from places like Toledo or Buffalo as minor league cards for example? This would indicate regional Southern release to me... I think that is the plausible answer why the minor league players are not present in the 68 card set. Also, this set of 68 seems like a strange number for a release and reminds me of the Red Sun set "First Series 1 to 75" (On reverse of Red Sun card) and the parallel drawn from that Regional release where by they never produced a 2nd series b/c the first series perhaps underwhelmed cigarette consumers. Obviously something caused Red Sun to not make a 2nd series. (Series 2 - 76-150) ?!? Both of these brands, Coupon & Red Sun, were both New Orleans brands and Red Sun was produced/released around 1909-10 time frame (No RS advertisements known as well, correct !?) and most likely Coupon as the 17th American Litho / ATC brand. We don't know that there was not going to be more Coupon (Type 1) cards released. Their rarity indicates something happened, just like it did to Red Sun Series 2 not being produced. I think the Red Sun set indicates something was not quite right in Tobacco/baseball card world in 1910 in that region and if this set was released in that time frame, it perhaps suffered the same fate!? Perhaps Red Sun & Coupon didn't make quite the splash against the larger National brands and the cards were a marketing stunt that just didn't materially help, so ATC / W.R. Irby nixed the series 2 RS & didn't produce/release any more Coupons.

Lastly, if you could show me a Full size American Beauty card, I would go away and say Coupon may not necessarily be one of the 17 Amer Litho ATC brands, but since exception was made on AB, why not exception on Coupon (Type 1)?! This was not a style change, but yet a size change (Width of card) and so was Coupon, a size change (Thickness of card).

Everything about the Type 1 Coupon looks like the other 16 Amer Litho - ATC brands including Ty Cobb Tobacco with exception to the thickness which can be explained by American Beauty as it is clearly different. Also there is no argument or debate for Type 2 and 3 Coupons as that would be no different than Old Mill making another set of cards in 1914 and 1919. That seems to throw people off imho. Also consider that Old Mill was on another completely different set (T210). Why not call them Old Mill Type 1 & 2 ?!? My point is Burdick made a catalog for cards. A wonderful way to help collectors... Just because he labeled certain cards T206 or T213-1 doesn't change anything about the card being just like the other American Litho - ATC brands. If you include American Beauty as a T206, then Coupon should be as well. (Not Coupon Type 2 or 3)

[rats60]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Pat - If the Coupon Type 1's were regionally released during the time frame with the other 16 ATC brands released between 1909-11 in New Orleans/South wouldn't they want to stick to the Southern League players and known Big league players of the day and not get into Minor league players from places like Toledo or Buffalo as minor league cards for example? This would indicate regional Southern release to me... I think that is the plausible answer why the minor league players are not present in the 68 card set. Also, this set of 68 seems like a strange number for a release and reminds me of the Red Sun set "First Series 1 to 75" (On reverse of Red Sun card) and the parallel drawn from that Regional release where by they never produced a 2nd series b/c the first series perhaps underwhelmed cigarette consumers. Obviously something caused Red Sun to not make a 2nd series. (Series 2 - 76-150) ?!? Both of these brands, Coupon & Red Sun, were both New Orleans brands and Red Sun was produced/released around 1909-10 time frame (No RS advertisements known as well, correct !?) and most likely Coupon as the 17th American Litho / ATC brand. We don't know that there was not going to be more Coupon (Type 1) cards released. Their rarity indicates something happened, just like it did to Red Sun Series 2 not being produced. I think the Red Sun set indicates something was not quite right in Tobacco/baseball card world in 1910 in that region and if this set was released in that time frame, it perhaps suffered the same fate!? Perhaps Red Sun & Coupon didn't make quite the splash against the larger National brands and the cards were a marketing stunt that just didn't materially help, so ATC / W.R. Irby nixed the series 2 RS & didn't produce/release any more Coupons.

Lastly, if you could show me a Full size American Beauty card, I would go away and say Coupon may not necessarily be one of the 17 Amer Litho ATC brands, but since exception was made on AB, why not exception on Coupon (Type 1)?! This was not a style change, but yet a size change (Width of card) and so was Coupon, a size change (Thickness of card).

Everything about the Type 1 Coupon looks like the other 16 Amer Litho - ATC brands including Ty Cobb Tobacco with exception to the thickness which can be explained by American Beauty as it is clearly different. Also there is no argument or debate for Type 2 and 3 Coupons as that would be no different than Old Mill making another set of cards in 1914 and 1919. That seems to throw people off imho. Also consider that Old Mill was on another completely different set (T210). Why not call them Old Mill Type 1 & 2 ?!? My point is Burdick made a catalog for cards. A wonderful way to help collectors... Just because he labeled certain cards T206 or T213-1 doesn't change anything about the card being just like the other American Litho - ATC brands. If you include American Beauty as a T206, then Coupon should be as well. (Not Coupon Type 2 or 3)

I would be for excluding American Beauty from the t206 cards, except they were used for t205 cards also. So, clearly they were intended to be part of t206. Not so for Coupon. Coupon is an unique set and in my opinion should remain that way.

[RCMcKenzie]

I wonder why Carlos Smith Shreveport was not included in the T213-1 series?

How do people view the 136 cards found with a Hindu brown back? Is that a set? There's no Cobb. Before Burdick, how did people know that a sweet cap 150 back and a Hindu SLer were part of the same "set"?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I wonder why Carlos Smith Shreveport was not included in the T213-1 series?

Hi Rob

The Shreveport Giants were in the Southern Association 1901 - 1903.
Then Shreveport became the Pirates in the Southern Association 1904 - 1907.
During 1908 - 1910 they were transferred to the Texas League.


Hey guys....this LEAGUE change for Shreveport, in my opinion, certainly narrows the timeline window
of the printing of the 1910 COUPON set.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.