Compare the names

[h2oya311]

Awesome work!

So why did the exact card (barring the name change) get such different grades?? PSA 5 down to PSA 2. I'm not a conspiracy theory kinda guy, but maybe there's some collusion w/ PSA graders who wanted the card to not be traced back to a Magee PSA 5 and/or didn't want the card to get even more attention as a "mid grade" example vs a low grade example.

Just sayin'!!

[h2oya311]

I hope Joe looks into it real closely. That card, had it been legit, should not have gotten a grade of 2 unless there was some new undetectable paper loss.

[AddieJoss]

My thanks to the Net54 crew. I would have not thought it was fake without all the data here and expert opinion. Myself or someone else would have purchased it.
Thanks,
Cory

[atx840]

The buyer of the original Magee's also bought a Doyle.....not good.

110950722688 1 Piedmont 350 PSA 2 lharri3600 -***d $138.50 2012-09-12 14:13:46

http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/gm...&grade=&page=1

[ullmandds]

Great job, chris...you ARE...the man!!!

[wonkaticket]

Well there you go if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck it will most likely be slabbed a goose until somebody steps in duck poop.

[sb1]

so.. wouldn't the simple solution be to ask the sellers(whom we all know) who they sold the cards to???

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by MW1

So both the milehigh example (PSA 2) that sold for a little over $16K and the probstein example (PSA 4) are forgeries that came from the "Magee" varieties. I wonder if the same person is behind both frankencards. It looks like the work is slightly different because on one of the cards there is a lateral movement of text while on the other, there is simply a horizontal movement or kerning. I wonder if the former example employed newly printed letters.

Mike agree the PSA 2 is almost laughable, but the PSA 4 if one wasn't really looking could pass by lots of folks no questions asked.

As you know this is a card that has been being faked since the hobby began. To me this is one card that every collector should review and review and get somebody else also who knows a lot or they trust to review before spending money on this card. IMO.

Again what a surprise damage near the name....and what do you know a tweak job.

[nolemmings]

so.. wouldn't the simple solution be to ask the sellers(whom we all know) who they sold the cards to???

If not a solution, it sure would make a great start, along with the identity of the Mile High consignor.

[obcmac]

It didn't seem that hard to spot...but I guess it is worrisome. I think that if anybody cared about the actual integrity of the hobby, they would be forthcoming about the trail. If the same person bought it in the original auction, submitted it for grading, then consigned to Rick...there would be a cut and dry case. I hope Joe, Rick or the original seller of the unaltered card makes another appearance.

Mac

Originally Posted by obcmac

Looks like the caption has been re-done. That's the impression that it gives anyways. It could be the scan I suppose, but I wouldn't go near it (even if I could afford it).

Mac

[jp1216]

I'll be sending all of my cards to CBA - "Chris Browne Authenticators" of Calgary (rats, customs forms). Great work Chris. Keep them honest.

[ullmandds]

it may not have been hard to spot for some of us...but it obviously was for the bidders...and some board members as well. I say job well done...and hopefully this will lead to the removal of some thief(thieves) from the hobby and a safer marketplace for everyone.

My kudos go to Doug...for bringing it up...and Chris for providing the evidence!

Great work guys!

[atx840]

Kudos to everyone. Doug for spotting it, Todd for sharing the PSA 2 scan and Cardtarget for their awesome data collecting and scans. Was also nice to see Probstein jump on it quickly.

Hopefully the owner of the other example is contacted and PSA figured out who created these.

[npa589]

Really impressive everyone, but I'm still shocked that members think starting this thread was "doing anything".


Honestly though, if it were not for many members on this board, the hobby would be in much dire straits than it's currently in. Net54: Sultans of Tobacco

Also, like any field, there are people devoid of any character who would sell their soul for a buck. Yes, TPG has an unacceptable amount of problems, but, law enforcement frequently needs to encounter the new way thieves are cheating the system before they can adjust.

[probstein123]

I'm still in shock that such a high profile card could get holdered.....
very upsetting , I've been an active collector since 1976...and this has always been a problem in our industry....I bought a collection of 1915 cracker jacks in 1982 and then someone told me they were bleached.....
anyways,
I'm shipping the card to psa today....

[the 'stache]

"You're sick over a baseball card. They're just baseball cards, give me a break!"

[npa589]

Rick:

I know you probably can't release any names, but, do you know if the person that consigned the card is the same person who bought the pre-fraudulent card from sellers that are on this board? Have you been in touch with them yet?

I'm curious if this buyer sold it for a bargain to someone who is now sitting with a fraudulent item. At the very least, he's probably going to say he got it from someone else...

[Cardboard Junkie]

A big issue is that a collector cannot trust TPGs, even with a big ticket items like this. They are incompetent. There will always be fakes and altered cards and thieves. What the hobby needs is trust worthy tpgs. As a side note, we have looked at so many Magee/Magies lately maybe Dan's will show up.Dave ps Bill (stache), nice one.

[the 'stache]

According to SMR, the Magie error in a PSA 4 is valued at $22,500.

One would think that a $20k + card would warrant a close inspection, especially the name portion of the caption, which alone makes the card infinitely more valuable than the corrected version.

I'm sure that more than one person at PSA examined the card. And they both whiffed. How the hell is this friggin' possible? Are they there to provide an expert opinion as to the authenticity and condition of the cards that are sent to them? Or are they there just to make money?

The quote I referenced earlier from Matt's conversation with Joe Orlando is indicative of a significant problem at PSA that starts at the very top.

"They're just baseball cards."

These baseball cards represent substantial investments by the people that own them, and you have a responsibility to examine them properly.

[Cardboard Junkie]

You hit the nail on the head Bill, "How is this Friggin possible?"
"Just baseball cards." Yeah, right, with many worth way more than their weight in gold.

[Miniduff]

Things we will never know:

Who submitted both cards to PSA?
Were they both subbed by the same source?
Were they both graded by the same person?

Has the submitter(s) been banned?
Has the grader been disciplined?

As the former CEO of a financial institution, I can tell you that there were consequences when someone missed a fraud. severe ones if they did not follow procedure.

Common sense, when someone sends a deposit through the mail of a credit card check, made out to them personally, drawn on someone else, for thousands of dollars, you look at it more closely than a payroll check coming in weekly...

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by Miniduff

Things we will never know:

Who submitted both cards to PSA?
Were they both subbed by the same source?
Were they both graded by the same person?

Has the submitter(s) been banned?
Has the grader been disciplined?

as mentioned these things can be easily verified. a board member sold the unaltered magie, probstein knows who the consignor is, joe orlando knows who submitted the card. the grader(s) is probably just incompetent. submitter might try to sneak the card in a lower value sub so the more experienced grader might not see it.

have heard stories from way back where forgers would wait for big shows where the most experienced graders would be doing on-site grading and they'd mail an overnight order to psa in cali where the less-experienced graders are left. could be a hobby urban myth but seems plausible.

edit: kudos to chris, great detective work!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

According to SMR, the Magie error in a PSA 4 is valued at $22,500.

One would think that a $20k + card would warrant a close inspection, especially the name portion of the caption, which alone makes the card infinitely more valuable than the corrected version.

I'm sure that more than one person at PSA examined the card. And they both whiffed. How the hell is this friggin' possible? Are they there to provide an expert opinion as to the authenticity and condition of the cards that are sent to them? Or are they there just to make money?

The quote I referenced earlier from Matt's conversation with Joe Orlando is indicative of a significant problem at PSA that starts at the very top.

"They're just baseball cards."

These baseball cards represent substantial investments by the people that own them, and you have a responsibility to examine them properly.

The problem isn't necessarily the "it's just baseball cards" attitude. In fact that can be a good thing, if you want someone truly objective.
I've noticed that some cards that are "special" - Wagner, Magie, etc always seem to get a grade slightly better than it seems. That's always been true, perhaps less so with TPG than before. The Wagner I saw in person went from f-g, creases, writing, wear...Through 3-4 public sales about 6 months apart, gaining a grade each time the last ad had it as VG?

The other part of the problem is the backwards system all TPGs use. In other hobbies the cheap stuff gets approved right away, the better stuff takes longer, and sometimes needs to be accompanied by copies of research to get anything other than "we decline to offer an opinion" . The experts can usually make the call in under a minute when giving an item a first look, but will take longer when doing the actual examining.
So instead of making the turnaround 30 days on something like an 81 Topps common and a day or less for a Magie. It should be the other way around.

That being said, even with the other stuff mistakes happen, and new information constantly comes to light. Like a dealer with boxes full of great stuff - Too much stuff that's too nice- finally being caught with the device that made the great examples of rare cancels on stamps. A lot of his stuff passed authentication, then some discoveries were made and questions asked and eventually he was caught. A big problem, but everyone learned from it. The fakes are saved for study rather than being destroyed.
And sometimes the "fakes" are proven legit as new information is found and new techniques are used.

Reversing the time for the price tiers would probably go a long way towards fixing some problems. Then expensive stuff like Magies could get a more serious examination. With a one day turnaround, there's just not enough time. Given more time and access to a database of images a comparison like Chris did could be done for all expensive cards. And that would lead to fewer mistakes.

I have a decent collection of images of Magies, and the second fake which I didn't have an image of fooled me into supporting the second. Terrible methodology on my part. I should have considered the other fake suspect as well barring better proof. Too much trust that the exact same thing wouldn't slide past twice. That's why image collections and a variety of comparisons are important.

Steve B

Steve B

[the 'stache]

Steve, if you will remember the conversation to which I am referring, Matt Miller had a very high end PSA graded 1960 Topps Hank Aaron which he sent in for review, along with several other valuable cards. He contacted PSA in advance of his submission, and Joe Orlando promised to personally oversee the entire process for him.

When he checked the grades online a week later, the PSA 8.5 (which had a population of 2) was now listed as a 7. PSA had damaged the card, and when Matt next spoke to Orlando, he told Matt that no reviewed card had ever been damaged by PSA previously. Obviously, Orlando was not being truthful.

Put yourself in Matt's place. PSA compensated him for the lost value of the card, and then Orlando became indignant when Matt expressed how upset he was. That's where the "you're sick over a baseball card. They're just baseball cards, give me a break" line came from.

Respectfully, I don't see any way this statement could be a good thing. When the President of PSA says a customer should not be upset when one of their valuable cards is damaged, it's a big problem.

[steve B]

Sorry for any confusion, sometimes I don't explain my ideas well.

I wasn't referring to Matts situation. Expressing "It's just cards" to a customer whose card you've damaged IS wrong, AND lousy PR and customer service.

My point is that for objectivity someone who doesn't know a lot about cards will usually be a more accurate grader overall. I've tried it with friends and it works. I give them the standards and a handful of cards - a few commons and a star rookie that's a bit worn. Not looking for a precise technical grade, just G,VG,EX, NM, they're nearly 100% accurate.
People who are baseball fans or know a little about cards are typically less accurate, giving the star a better grade than it deserves.
More experienced collectors are better at it- maybe being a bit jaded. But that breaks down at some point for most of us. (and those that are beyond that have a bit of admiration from me. )

The point about a need to take more time on more expensive items rather than less isn't an opinion I'll change easily.

Steve B

[ullmandds]

I think taking longer to grade more valuable cards makes perfect sense. I mean we have to pay significantly more to have these cards graded...shouldnt we receive a higher level of service? Like a better holder? High def recorded scans? Maybe even a comparison of other previously graded like cards?

It makes sense!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I think taking longer to grade more valuable cards makes perfect sense. I mean we have to pay significantly more to have these cards graded...shouldnt we receive a higher level of service? Like a better holder? High def recorded scans? Maybe even a comparison of other previously graded like cards?

It makes sense!

It does make sense. TPGs charge more, generally, to grade more valuable cards so why not spend a couple extra minutes on them?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I think taking longer to grade more valuable cards makes perfect sense. I mean we have to pay significantly more to have these cards graded...shouldnt we receive a higher level of service? Like a better holder? High def recorded scans? Maybe even a comparison of other previously graded like cards?

It makes sense!

Originally Posted by Leon

It does make sense. TPGs charge more, generally, to grade more valuable cards so why not spend a couple extra minutes on them?

Agreed 100%. With modern cards, which until recently has made up the majority of my collection, where a card's value will go is an unknown. That Bowman Chrome prospect refractor auto could be the next Mike Trout, or Greg Jefferies. So it is important to grade those cards accurately without spending an inordinate amount of time on them.

However, if I sent in a Eddie Plank T206 to grade (I can dream!), they better spend a little longer examining it than they do a 2013 Stephen Strasburg Topps common.

[Dario7707]

I

[irishdenny]

Honestly... I Most Always watch these threads from afar!

Cause in the End the Truth iS Unveiled... & I Glean from The Knowledge!

When it Comes to T206's It is So True... That if it Doesn't Look Right,
"iT's NoT RiGHT!!!"

However... Sometimes it takes some hashing out... RiGHT!?

I Am Curious though... aS to HoW Much Cash this Cracken' Sharp Board
HaS Saved the World of Collector's!

I do believe that it would be of some interest... To Start a NeW Topic Area in Order to "Save" the Cost of What was "Saved" by MakiN' Sure the Public didn't get Fleeced ... So to Speak.

According to CardTarget: A PSA 2 Sold fir $15,000 Last December...

So... A Good Start to the Thread would be a Hefty $15,000 fir the Good Guyz!

Thread Name: Net54 ~ What MiGHT a BeeN Lost ~ BuT WaS SaveD!" (oR?)

DATE
28 October 2014

CARD
1910 PSA 2 MAGEE (Magie) ERROR Card

AMOUNT ($)
+ $15,000.00

Member(s)
!?!?!?!, !?!?!?!? & !?!?!?!

I do think that it would be Appropriate for a Forth Column for the Net54 Members to be Acknowledged for Their Work!

So... The "Net54 Members" would come after the Cash Saved Column!

Just a Thought from One who has been Helped Numerous Times in the Past 15oR So Years by Many who are here... And Some Who I have Very Good Memories of... and are not : -)

Any thoughts!?

As Always My Friends...

[A&G CR]

who was the creator of the fake magie? Anyone ever press charges with all this evidence?