Ethical question / Paypal

[bbcard1]

I am not a hard liner on much so far as ethics goes, but is it really right to ask someone use paypal gift (which pays no transaction fee) when making a transaction? You are using a product...if you do so under false pretense isn't that the same as stealing? Seems a growing trend to request payment via paypal gift and while I'm not a lover of fees, it seems to me if you're going to use a service you should pay for it...if you don't want to, there's always the old send a check way around things.

[Leon]

For me, I used to feel the exact way you describe. I don't anymore. The way I see it now is that you don't get the same protections from paypal when you do a gift type payment. I also justify it, right or wrong, by the almost monopolistic way ebay is now. Tit for tat in my book. They require me to use an online payment and own paypal so know they are going to get the large majority of payments that way and will make billions off of it. No harm no foul to me. But again, I used to be against it except in extraordinary situations. And actually I don't think you can just send a check with ebay.....I think sellers have to take some form of online payment. (I could be wrong but don't think so)

[markf31]

I don't consider it stealing and I'm pretty certain that if Paypal thought they were losing too much money to the gift option, they would have done something about already.

I dislike Paypal immensely, I never throw around the hate word but with Paypal it’s pretty darn close and I avoid them like the plague. I don’t have a Paypal account, I only have Paypal process my payments for Ebay auctions so they never make a cent off my money, not on my end. There are other options out there for selling on Ebay too outside of Paypal that allow you to process credit card payments as a merchant.

Just my 2 cents.

[tonyo]

I haven't put enough thought into it to form a hard and fast opinion.

If someone asks to be paid by gift, I just shrug my shoulders and send a gift. Or decide if I want to add the paypal fee to my payment. If someone suggests it's up to me to decide, I usually send gift if a small amount and regular paypal if large. I'm fairly confident that paypal would stop the service if it became a big problem for them.

I usually mix in a "payment owed" here and there. I haven't read the fine print, but it seems to have the same results.


There was one occasion when I tried to send a gift, but paypal didn't allow it for some reason. I seem to recall thinking it had to do with the receiving address resembling a possible business name.....



I don't sell much, but come to think of it, I think my current practice is to not request a gift, but gladly accept it. I build in the cost of paypal gift to my asking price. My last sell I posted an asking price, the buyer asked if I would accept a lower price, I met him in the middle "if he used paypal gift" ........... not sure what that says about my ethics or lack thereof



Also a bit of an aside since Leon mentioned ebay's near monopoly......I bought a card on ebay last night. When I went to pay, I was directed to Propay. Huh?... what's this? I back tracked looking for a paypal option (since I try to run my collecting through a seperate account tied to paypal), but didn't see one. Thought about emailing the seller to ask to use paypal, but decided to not go thru the hassle. It worked fine I suppose.

[bbcard1]

don't get me wrong, it's not my biggest ethical delimma...but i am interested in hearing other guy's take. I don't mind to use PPGift if I know someone or if it's someone I have seen on the board a lot.Lately, I have had more and more people pay me by check on on-board transactions, which suits me fine. It gives me an excuse to walk my dog out to the bank.

[T206Collector]

PayPal once sent me a nasty email saying I was receiving payments for goods as a gift and that I had to stop at once or risk losing my account. I am always careful to just say "Congratulations!" or "Happy Birthday!" in my emails when I send payment via gift.

It has become so common a practice on Net54 that when I sell something I hardly even have to ask whether I want it as a gift. It is basically accepted practice. And PayPal certainly doesn't have to permit that service.

[SetBuilder]

Ethical dilemma? No.

PayPal + eBay is a multi-billion dollar monopoly.

I have no problem finding ways around their fees.

[celoknob]

When I am selling something I never ask for "gift"; I'm not comfortable with that at all.

With that said, if someone is offering something I really want and requests paypal "gift" I will usually oblige without comment, and I don't lose sleep over it. So maybe my ethics are a little soft on this one but I definitely prefer no "gifts" for true transactions.

[kcohen]

This subject came up in a thread some time ago. I normally add the fees and pay by regular Paypal. I'm uncomfortable with gift as using it under false pretenses like that is on it's face fraudulent and I'm uneasy with that. One's opinion of Paypal is irrelevant in my view. And no, I don't see people who hold the opposite view as bad people. I probably hold this view because of the inordinate amount of guilt instilled in me by my Jewish mother.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by kcohen

This subject came up in a thread some time ago. I normally add the fees and pay by regular Paypal. I'm uncomfortable with gift as using it under false pretenses like that is on it's face fraudulent and I'm uneasy with that. One's opinion of Paypal is irrelevant in my view. And no, I don't see people who hold the opposite view as bad people. I probably hold this view because of the inordinate amount of guilt instilled in me by my Jewish mother.

+1

Would add to that: Here, we have the choice to use Paypal or not, so it isn't like we are forced to use it. My feeling is that if I choose freely to use a service I should pay for it. I give the buyers the option of check/cash/MO or paypal +3% and as a buyer I add the 3% to the purchase rather than use the gift function in a manner that I feel does not comport with my view of business ethics.

I take a similar tack with tipping valet parking attendants. If I am forced to use a valet service to park my car, as is often the case at a hotel, I won't tip for the 'privilege' of being forced to use a service I don't want. If I choose to use it, however, rather than park the car myself I am willing to tip for it. That [with other things] probably makes me a jerk, but that's how I roll...

[4815162342]

I've never understood why bad behavior is taxed, whether it's speeding, smoking, drinking, etc. There's even been discussion of a "fat tax" on good--I mean unhealthy food and soft drinks. All it does is make local and/or state budgets dependent on people continuing to participate in the behavior; otherwise they face budget shortfalls. What if one day everyone quit speeding?

[steve B]

Lots of interesting comments.

I'm conflicted about Paypal gift. Looking at it from a strict perspective it is wrong unless it's actually a gift.

But there are lots of rationalizations that get used.

I won't ask for a payment sent as a gift, but I won't get wound if someone sends it that way or requests it. Yes, a bit hypocritical, but it's the only compromise I see as workable.

When I did industrial work I had a chance to quote some work for the government. They have a little clause in their conditions about giving the government the same pricing as "your best customer or client". I spent a bunch of time working out how much of a discount to give them. Then the boss asked me "who is actually our best customer? The one that seldom buys and always expects a discount or the one that promptly pays list price without comment?" That totally changed my thinking.

Sometimes I view it as me sending someone a gift of cash and later they send me a gift that happens to be a card. Yep, a justification.

On the police/tickets thing, there are odd situations. Similar to a lower ticket rate being seen as a sign of slacking, Massachusetts was held to a similar thing by the feds. Too many tickets issued on rt 93 was seen as evidence that speeding enforcement wasn't being taken seriously. What was needed to release the federal highway funds? Writing even more tickets!
------------------------------
And for anyone wondering about the government quote......The agency in question also had a track record of getting detailed technical specs including part numbers in a quote held out as non-competetive then putting it out to bid using our quote as the required specs and eventually giving the job to someone else. I gave them a quote with some very obscure specs, OEM part numbers from a variety of suppliers and a confusing array of units of measurement. Like Instead of gallons/minute deciliters/hour. And some that while legit were even more obscure. Plus a schematic with errors.
All the other quotes were way overpriced, and the place they gave it to (despite them not being the low bidder) couldn't get it working. I got to take over the project at their price plus some extra. And came in under budget AND about 15% better on performance. I didn't get run around on quotes after that

Steve B

[majordanby]

sellers use the gift option to avoid the fees. otherwise, you have a few options

1.) request only for M.O. or check. Now, the question is does limiting your payment options to just these two limit your probability of selling the item (i.e. shrink your buying pool)? In other words, do buyers, for whatever reason (e.g. instant gratification, laziness, postage fee), prefer to pay via paypal?

2.) request upfront that the buyer pay the paypal fee. Once again, does this request limit your probability of selling the item? On average, do buyers turn away from net54 BST posts if they see that the seller offers paypal, but requests the buyer pay the fee?

If the answer to the questions in #1 are no, and you're worried about the fees (and you want to abide by paypal regulations), then just limit payment to check or M.O. Ditto for #2 - say upfront that paypal is a payment option, with the buyer paying the additional fee.

im not entirely sure what were the reasons for including a paypal gift option in the first place.

[Clutch-Hitter]

My opinion is in the thread "just a little concerned about this.".

To me, before this issue was mentioned as a dilemma, the only difference was that one included risk while the more expensive included their so called buyer protection. They're making their money either way and when you opt for the more expensive form and have a problem, you may not receive the help you deserve. That's how simply I viewed this issue.

Now I'm going to read all of this thread...