MRholdings on our BST ....Caveat Emptor!!

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Posted By: leon

There is a person on our BST that is posting under MRholdings. He has not responded to several email requests. Please be extremely careful....

MRholdings- please email me immediately.....

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Posted By: Matt

nevermind

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Posted By: leon

I am not interested in the cards being offered as to the reason I want to be emailed. Others were before me on saying they would take them. This has to do with the safety of the board. If this person doesn't email me this evening their IP will probably be banned. You can't come on our BST anonymously, tout higher end items, and then not respond to emails that were sent within 8 minutes of the post AND also for not emailing a moderator when asked.....regards

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Posted By: MR Holdings

I just got back from dinner, and I am kind of shocked by the overwhelming interest in the items that I have posted... and I am in the process of responding to all of the e-mails that I received. I posted on the forum on my lunch hour and then got caught up at work and did not get a chance to check my e-mail and the forum until now. Everyone that has e-mailed me requesting scans will get them tonight, and I can assure you that everyone that purchases a card from me will get it without any problem.

I tried to post my scans on the BST board but was not able to because my scans are too big... can anyone help me out with getting them down to a manageable size? Do I need to lower the resolution, size, or what?

Thanks and I apologize for the delay.

-MR

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Posted By: leon

Please email me MR.....You really can't be anonymous on the BST...Hope you had a nice dinner....regards

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Posted By: Donavon Arabie

Try this link. I find it the easiest to use in resizing images.

http://online-image-resize.kategorie.cz/

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Posted By: leon

3:37pm and 8:40pm are kind of weird lunch times for today.......

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Posted By: quan

fantastic prices for those rare cards. congrats and good luck to the buyers.

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Posted By: leon

I have some confirmations so good luck to all...

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Posted By: quan

hmmm so now we have a green back e98 overprint?...and the old put stamp is bluish. i thought they were always darker than that.

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Posted By: leon

Neither stamp is like I have ever seen. I did speak with someone and they confirmed some things. Still, these overprints are some like I have never seen before...which happens ....

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Posted By: quan

font seems off to me tbh...here's the 2 red cobb/wagner i found in rea.

no knock against the seller but as some know i'm always suspicious of after-production stampings on cards. this might be the 1st green discovery also right leon? please email me about the new info you obtained from your source on these. would love to hear them thanks.

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Posted By: Tim Kindler

I would never challenge someone's integrity without knowing the whole story so I will side on the side of error here. I hope that MRholdings is selling this Green Old Put Back mistakingly thinking that it is real, because it IS NOT a genuine Old Put stamp. I am 99.9% sure of that. I own 3 myself, including the Wagner that Quan has posted, thank you Quan, and I have seen others from fellow collector's collections and the ink color is wrong and the font size is wrong. It looks like someone has tried to cut a stamper or die to look like an origional.....very poorly I might add. If you go back into old threads, this forging of stamps was talked about as a possiblility and it looks like we have finally seen one. Like I said, hopefully this seller is honestly and mistakingly trying to sell a fake. At least I hope this is the case.

Tim Kindler

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Posted By: leon

I looked at the E94 Oh You Fan overprint listed for sale and immediately said to myself "that looks like crap".....but, it's in an SGC holder? We don't need to take this thread there as we all know humans can make mistakes...but back to topic...I dunno....the title of the thread is still appropriate. I am trying to get past the fact there are TWO UNIQUE ones out of two cards.....it could happen....



edited to clarify- there is 1 other known E94 Oh You Fan overprint (I own it) and it has the same lettering but is a different color and font type...

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Posted By: quan

i'm not e94 OP expert, cuz i've never owned one...but the e98 stamp is not sharp/crisp like the other 2, and it's not a "fading" problem or a light stamp. at the very least the buyer should get a provenance or genesis of where the card came from. that story should be quite interesting.

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Posted By: leon

First of all....to echo Quan's thoughts I am always wary of overprints. I like provenance.
Here is another, 1930's card being offered, with backstamp from MR. The front is Bruton. In my little bit of experience larger format cards (this one approx 8x10) usually have larger back stamps than this? But again....it could be a coincidence.....

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Both stamps look wrong. Could Jay Behrens' prophecy about knockoff stamps have come true? Gasp!

Pardon the nostalgia, but when the B/S/T started, it wasn't about users with names that included 'investments', 'LLC', or (now) 'holdings'. C'mon - you need to be a corporation or something that kinda looks like one? It was intended for collectors to buy/sell/trade with collectors. Thankfully, it's still mostly like that.

I think I can predict the outcome with these cards and it won't be pretty.


Bill

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Here is a back stamp on a R310 that I have had for a little while.

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Posted By: Scott Levy

Typically I'm not so inquisitive to look behind the curtain, but in this instance, I'd feel a bit better if the proprietor behind MR Holdings identified himself personally. After all, with some high end cards, perhaps one or more of us has dealt with him/her/them.

Regards,
Scott

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Posted By: leon

Those stamps are small too but there are 3 of them. I just looked on about 5 different type cards I have and none had as small of stamps, relative to the size of the card, than the one posted above. I have seen a few dozen others and don't remember any that small...but it's certainly possible...

especially seeing yours, Rhett....thanks for posting it..

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Posted By: Jim Manos

I know the guy and have bought and sold with him before, I didn't know he had a computer...I sold him that R310 card and I got it from Mark Macrae along with a few others....One actually still have. I think u guys r wrong, but whatever. His father or uncle or something was a big collector in Columbus yrs ago(now deceased). Also did u notice the E98 had no #1 of the list of 30 cards?? Dunno but he is a weird dude but I would not say he is dishonest at all. I have had the guy at my house and sold things to him many times and seen him at the Vets Show. I don't know of the other items but Mark can attest to the Karmel Shop cards. I do like the Sugardale if I had any $...

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Posted By: leon

I have a little bit of mixed feelings about throwing this gent under the bus, publicly, contact-wise. He did email me his contact info and I WILL SHARE it privately as I too don't think you can't be anonymous with high ticket items on the BST.

I spoke to another board member who does know this person, "MR". I am not convinced of the legitimacy of the stamps and overprints, by any means......I will get in touch with SGC tomorrow and see if they remember the OH YOU FAN one...it had to be recent...

edited to change the word "can" to "can't"....which sort of changes the whole meaning

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Posted By: Tim Kindler

The missing #1 could be just flaked off like half the #29 and #30 are. His scanner, and trust me, mine is worse, might not be the best out there to show that paper loss. As I stated in my two cents earlier in the thread, I DO think that the E98 is fake, but that it might not be something that the seller is aware of and that the seller is hopefully not trying to purposely scam a buyer. I don't feel that Leon or anyone who has responded is throwing the seller under the bus. I think for the most part,those who are responding have been polite in holding their judgement till more is learned about the situation.
Tim Kindler

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Posted By: robert a

The E98 Old Put is not even close in my opinion. ALL of the other Old Puts are consistent with the color of ink, boldness, clarity around the edges of the lettering, etc. as the two that Quan posted above the Jennings example. And the green front? I'm not buying it.

The E98 card is definitely real, but the stamp was added later. I'm not saying anything against the gentleman selling the cards. For all we know the stamp could've been added in 1975, but it's not period.

The E94 Overprint lettering is all wrong and I don't think it's legit either. Look at where it says, "Eat Close's Candies" under the top line "Oh You Fan." The "Eat Close's Candies" line is suppose to end at the beginning of the N in "Oh You Fan." The line in this seller's example extends all the way to the end of the N. The text is too large in all the wrong places.



Rob

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

I don't feel that Leon or anyone who has responded is throwing the seller under the bus. I think for the most part,those who are responding have been polite in holding their judgement till more is learned about the situation.

Cashews, if you know what I mean...

These cards are bad. Why try to find an excuse for them?



Bill

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Posted By: Bob

I'll give the seller the benefit of the doubt but I know a little bit about caramel card overprints and the Old Put on the E98 is a forgery although the card appears legit. The E94 Moore is legit but the overprint on the back is all wrong. Shame...

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Posted By: Mark T

MR holdings did respond to me last night and sent scans. Below is the scan from MR and under that is Leon's card. Of course both look different but it is in SGC holder. I have opportunity to purchase the E94 Moore but would love to hear from SGC.

I have never dealt with MR Holdings and he seems to be an OK guy.

?t=1228993814


?t=1228994003

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Posted By: Tim Kindler

Bill,
I agree, these cards to me are fake overprints, not the cards, but the overprints. What I meant by not throwing the seller under the bus until we know more is that we don't know if this seller is selling these, what we deam as fakes, on purpose to scam someone or by accident not knowing that they are fakes. I'll hold my judgement on the seller until all the cards are on the table per say.
Tim Kindler

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Posted By: Jim Manos

Just got up and read through these posts. Real quick, when I talked to u last night I think u miss understood me. As I have not slept for 3 days as my little girl Saylor is still at Childrens Hospital with RSV. I know the guy I owned both the overprint and the R310 (bought R310 from Macrae) I sold them to MR. I had it graded so I can't answer for SGC...I was in a hurry and quickly read your posts regarding the E98. The OLD Put I have no clue on. I actually owned 2 diff overprints purchased at the Vets Show in Oct. Consigned the other to an auction house. I will check but I think SGC graded the other as well. Off to the hospital...

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Posted By: Shawn

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Posted By: leon

First off I really hope your little girl continues to get better as you said she was last night.
As I said last night I almost never call anyone very late without it being planned and I called you after 10pm, your time....(on your cell of course so you didn't have to answer if it was too late.) Maybe the R310 is ok but I still am far from convinced about the overprints.....quite far actually, SGC holder or not..... I am not saying anything with 100% certainty on purpose. My immediate thoughts on both cards stand at the moment.....

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Posted By: barrysloate

If this thread needs one more opinion, I doubt there is any chance that the Old Put and E94 overprint are real. And if I am correct that this is the first time the seller has posted on the board, this is not a good introduction.

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Posted By: Shawn

I am going to go out on a limb here... Notice the font on the ad I posted above, "The George Close Co." appears to be the same as is on the card in question. I have looked at other cards today with the stamp on the back and have not seen one that has the same font as is in the ad or on the back of MRs card. I am talking about the "George Close" portion of the stamp only. It is my belief that if someone were to make a fake, they would use something similar to the "known" stamps. The odds of creating a stamp with the exact font as is on the ad above would seem to be nil. I am going to guess that the stamp on the card in question is an earlier version, simply based on the fact the the ad is older than the e94s.



Whats your thoughts?

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Posted By: leon

A few quick points. I just spoke with SGC about this situation. They are aware and are taking another look....obviously without the card in hand though. Here is another situation. I am understanding the seller has 7 more E94 Overprints.....I would love to see scans.....regards

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Posted By: Shawn

The more I look and think about it, it seems it would have to be real. There is just no way someone got that Font right! The odds to me are just impossible.
Its the exact same logo! Its right there. It is a fact that the Close Co. used that exact same font.

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Posted By: Brian

We'd like to thank the Net54 community for bringing this to our attention. We've been in contact with the original submitter of the E94 Moore. The card is being sent back to us and we will review it at that time.

We will work closely with the owner of the card to rectify the situation.

Thank you, as always, for all the input.

Brian Dwyer
SGC
1-800-742-9212

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Posted By: quan

again i'm not making judgement on the e94 as i've never closely studied them, but if this variation is legit(?)...what's stopping a 3rd or 4th different font from surfacing, or an 11th or 12th different banner with the tie-in being "The George Close Co"? What process is SGC using to determine whether the stamp is authentic?

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Posted By: leon

I am not speaking for SGC but I would hope they use exemplars of known ones. I know 8 of my 10 are pictured in Lipest's encyclopedia from 25 yrs ago...They were probably worth $20 each at the time so most likely they are real.....I doubt we can ever be 100% certain of anything but we can make rational judgements....I think if SGC gets back this E94 and doesn't feel comfortable with it they will undo it. It's no different than a mfg cut pre-war card that doesn't meet size requirements. They don't have to deem it trimmed to not holder it. I would guess most of us have cards, or have owned cards, we thought were good but didn't meet the requirements to be slabbed. I would still like to see the others in this group......regards

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Posted By: Zinn

but I hope when SGC takes a second look that it doesn't knee jerk dismiss it as fake and takes the time to examine all of the evidence including the font style shown in the pic above.

You listening Brian?

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Posted By: robert a

Shawn,

I disagree.

I know for certain that the E98 Old Put is a FAKE stamp. In fact, I'll further and say that the card was indeed meant to deceive someone.

I'm not saying this particular person tried to deceive, but the creator of the fake stamp obviously had bad intentions.

There's not a chance that SGC could change my mind about the Old Put.

Now what are the chances that a seller of that kind of fake might have an E94 that looks similar, but is different than all the other E94 Overprints that we've seen?

Rob

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Posted By: Matt

I'm confused - Manos says he bought the card with the stamp raw at a show and submitted it to SGC and then sold it to MRHoldings? What about the other overstamped cards?

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

While you can use known exemplars, they alone do not solve the question of authenticity. I would assume that SGC studied the card thoroughly the first time. It is obvious that the font and font color are different--presumably that did not escape the graders. It is questionable to me that a faker would use a different color--why raise such an obvious flag that the card is different? It's not being touted as a rare, one of one green variation. I also concur with another poster who wondered how that ad font could be matched so well, and why not simply try and copy what is known to exist. I think there's a decent chance this overprint is real.

New discoveries continue from time to time in this hobby. They should be scrutinized, but they happen. As to the issue of what's to stop others from faking these overprints, I believe the market will help solve that. The card often has some decent value without overprint, so the faker risks ruining his sale if the "fake" is not believed. With this card, there is just as good a likelihood that many would stay away from bidding as would be "lured" in. Unless and until there is no financial incentive to fake these, it remains a possibility.

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Posted By: Shawn

Robert,



I can not speak for the "Old Putt", I have not even seen that card. I do not see how you argue about the "Close" card though. It is my understanding that no one has seen that particular version whether fake or real, so how can some one make a fake that just so happens to match the exact same font that is on the ad. The odds of accidentally matching that same font that is on the ad just blows my mind. Also, George Close had several different stamps, which helps the likelihood of different ones being found. In other words this company did not have just one stamp or style and stuck to it, there appears to be several versions.



Its there, how can you argue that font? Can you show me another card with the same font that is on the ad? If so, then I can see that it may be a fake.

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Posted By: quan

is there a method to date the ink being used? whether they be period, 1950's, 1975's etc. sgc should at least look at prior examples but i feel there could be more done? there are still 7 more out there and i feel it's just the first wave in the next years to come.

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Posted By: leon

You make a few good points....here are a few others...

1. Seller is selling a poor fake E98 Old Put. NO green fronts have ever been seen and the font on back is horrible.

2. No Close stamp has ever been seen in black nor has that font been seen. (that I am aware of)

3. I am waiting to see the other 7....and my guess is they will all look similar...but that is only a guess until we see them. Another guess....we won't see them = red flag. If we do see them and they are ALL different looking then I guess we have 8 unknown ones all of the sudden found. Wow...that's great.

4. Ohio- the hotbed of fakes

5. If that Close stamp WERE real it would sell for at least 2.5x of the asking price...and I can almost guarantee more as it would only be the 2nd known.

6. I am going to go out on a limb and say SGC will review this and un-holder it.


I guess with all of those things in question it could still be real..... I have never said "100%" on purpose....

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Posted By: Richard

Paying high premiums for overprint stamped cards is not for everyone.

I stopped collecting them some time ago fearing that someone could make a fake stamp, or in the case below, find a real one and go to town. Pun intended

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Posted By: davidcycleback

You can date many types of ink, with pen ink the easiest. On a related note, I'm in the process of starting a small company that does scientific light analysis of materials for the purpose of identifying, dating and analyzing materials like plastics, paints, etc.

For these stamped cards, provenance is important. If provenance shows an Old Put card was in a Lipset auction ten years ago, this would be evidence supporting the legitimacy. On the other hand, if a seller trimmed or altered a card yesterday, there is no provenance for the card in the current state. A trimmer won't show you where he bought the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle, because the previous sale description would reveal that the card has since been trimmed.

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Posted By: leon

Good point. Toy Town stamps have never commanded much of a premium anyway. If there is ANYONE that wants to unload all of their Old Puts and E94 overprints (that I would feel comfortable with, which is all that I have seen except the ones mentioned in this thread) I am an immediate buyer. I love collecting cards with overprints. My E97 with a Toy Town stamp was $20....I will buy more of those too...at the same price of course ....

And I wholeheartedly agree with David. Provenance is very important....There is basically none on these new crappy looking ones....

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Posted By: quan

david, good to hear ur opinion.

rman--u always deliver!

(damn my pun was not as direct/sharp as yours. some may not know it's "toy town post office" and that whole delivery line was tied to that, blah now that i've had to explain that whole thing it's lost its edge, not that it was effective in the first place since these days fedex and ups also delivers )

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Posted By: robert a

"It is my understanding that no one has seen that particular version whether fake or real, so how can some one make a fake that just so happens to match the exact same font that is on the ad."





The exact same overprint exists. If you look a few posts up in the thread you'll see Mark's post that contains the new card and then Leon's example below. This new example (in my opinion) is a cheezy rip off of the genuine example. It's not new as far as never been seen before. New would mean new actual language. We've just never seen a distorted version before.

Now, I realize these items are very scarce and that something new to the hobby is always possible. If the fake Old Put wasn't hanging around right next to it, I might've been more open to this example being a fresh find.

Also, you're stating that the font is the same. Although similar, the size of the lettering is different. Why would maker of these take time and money to make a new one. This was a very small cache of cards at the time. I highly doubt there was two sources for this one overprint.

As far as collecting overprints and certain stamps such as toytown and the overpints mentioned in this thread, I like to think that we haven't been tricked as of yet. Even though it's merely a stamp, I feel like we will be able to identify the newer fakes whether were looking at the shade of ink of the exact size of the stamp. That Old Put stands out like a sore thumb.

Rob