Ebay Descriptions of graded cards

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Posted By: Chris

I would like the board's opinions on listing graded cards SGC or PSA and not disclosing what seems to be an ovious trim job. There was a somewhat unclear scan and as with lots of graded listings it said no returns on graded cards. My questions is, if I as your customer and am not happy with the card and maybe more importantly you as the seller thought the card was trimmed, should you first mention it in the listing and secondly offer a refund? What responsibility do you all think the seller has in listing? I am the last one to claim to be the most knowledgeable person in telling trimmed cards, but this card has part of the name cut off, does not fit into the holder(lots of free room) and when put on top of another slab from thge same company and set, it seems very short, as well as appearing to slope. I'm interested in your thoughts.

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Posted By: Bryan

I always give refunds for every card I sell on Ebay. I understand that if someone buys a card and in return doesn't like for any reason then they should get their money back if they wish. I do this because I know that I would like to be treated that way. I think graded cards are the easiest to get refunded - just as long as the same card is in the holder. Just my opinion.

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Posted By: petecld

Sure the card isn't just mis-cut and not trimmed?

Even so, if you buy a graded card and you don't like it, it isn't the seller you have a problem with it's the grading company. Why should the seller be held accountable for the action(s) of the grading company? Some collectors look at the grade, then the card, and if they don't see a glaring reason for the grade they think the grading company made a mistake and they will make $$$ on upgrading. They get the card and see there is a reason for the grade and then want their money back because they can't upgrade it. Oh well, again, not the sellers fault. That's why I don't allow returns on graded cards.

Without seeing what auction you're referring to it's hard to tell specifics but as much as sellers have levels of responsibility, so do buyers. If the image used in an auction was poor, seriously, you might want to ask yourself why. The whole, "I just don't know how to scan or take pictures well" routine is too convenient. Many times they don't want buyers to see the card clearly which sounds like it could be the case here. I have a rule, if a seller wants my money and can't post a clear scan, they don't get my money. No card is worth being ripped-off.

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Posted By: bcornell

No returns on graded cards sounds okay, but what if you had won the atrocity below in the last Superior auction? Sellers have to take some responsibility.

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Posted By: leon

I don't offer refunds on ebay unless I make a material mistake. I truly believe that auction formats shouldn't have to have refunds. I do state it in my auctions so if someone isn't comfortable with the large scans or description then I guess I lose a potential customer. If I was selling completely retail I would probably offer a refund time frame..... So far I have never had an issue ( knock on wood ).....later

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Posted By: hankron

that, as a picky bidder who actually looks to see what are the sellers' guarantees, your return policy (returnable if you make a material mistake) sounds like a good one to me.

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Posted By: Chris

Let me first say the scan was not a large clear one but I am certain the scan was not intentional with the seller as all the others look the same. Not the worse scan I have seen but not the best and it was difficult to see the name clearly. I am pretty sure it is trimmed because as I said half the name is cut off but the biggest thing is the 1/4 inch gap in the slab and it really does look sloped. The card was graded VG/EX so if it was possibly miscut, and I don't think it is, the grade is way off. I am sorry for not posting a scan or a link to the card but I got it from a fellow board member and out of respect to him I am giving him a chance to do what I feel is the right thing. I just felt this was a good topic to discuss. I know when I first started lurking on here there was a quite heated discussion between a couple of people( I don't remember who) about this very same thing. I tried to find that but couldn't. I personally would offer a full refund including shipping to a buyer if they were not happy for any reason. I would rather not take the chance of them being unhappy. Remember, there are those who complain to you and give you the cahnce to fix it, and there are those who just never buy from you again. I also do not feel like I am not without fault here as I guess I should have asked questions but I just don't want to email every seller about a cards condition.

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Posted By: petecld

EXACTLY, the way I see it you proved my point. I guess it all depends on if you see the glass half full or half empty. Before spending the type of money to win a card like that BUYERS need to educate THEMSELVES and not count on a grading company or auction house - both will have financial concerns - for descriptions.

ANYONE who won that joke and can't see it's trimmed deserves to loose their money. I mean their first clue should have been it's in. . . no, I won't say it.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Everything has been worked out.

Here is the card: Won on the Net54 Final Four game. I have a new prize this year.



Here is the auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5118599117&ssPageName=STRK:MESO:IT

I have to agree that the scan is small but you are never sure what they are going to look like using ebay picture service. I since am hosting my own pictures so I will have better control of the size.

I personally do not like to take the responsibility of the grading company. I have a few graded blunders off ebay that I was not happy with an still have the cards. I guess that is why we pay the big bucks to the grading companies, for them to take this guess work out of it.

Lee

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Posted By: hankron

I don't buy or sell graded stuff, and understand that that offers a different dimension and issues than I personal encounter.

While I think that all sellers should have a stated return gurantee policy, that doesn't mean I think policies have to be or even should be uniform. Two distinctly different policies can both be reasonable. If the guarnatee is stated and reasonable, it's the potential bidder's responsibility to read and consider it, ask any pressing questions and decide if it's acceptable. If it's not acceptable, the bidder can move on. If he bids, he's accpeted it and can't change things after the fact to suit his fancy.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

the card is not trimmed. a scan of the card intitially would have been a help. as they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

the card is not trimmed. a scan of the card intitially would have been a help. as they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

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Posted By: Chris

The seller has requested I post the auction on here so I am doing that. Along with my issues as well as a better scan of the card(I hope better anyway.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5118599117&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT



In the listing Lee says no return on graded cards. I do not apply the grade just try to describe the card the best I can. He then lists all the card's good points but leaves off the part about the cut name. As I said, I by no means consider myself an expert on trimmed cards but feel this one is and if not, I feel if you are going to describe the card as best you can you should include the cut as well. I do not personally feel the Ebay scan is all that clear, In my scan, notice the gap in the holder and it also appears to slope. The most alarming thing to me was when I put another SGC T206 card on top of it and made sure the bottom was touching the bottom of the slab, you could see a large part of the other T206 under it. And I mean a large part. When I first Emailed Lee he replied
I am sorry that you are disappointed with the card. Part of the reason I send cards for grading is so I do not have to describe every detail of the card. I never thought the card was trimmed, especially since it was graded by SGC. (I normally do not take returns on graded cards, which is stated in the auction, but if you would like, return it and I will send you back the purchase price of the card.

Let me know what you plan on doing,

Lee). I countered with I didn't feel like he should make money off of me with the shipping and his new self insuring on a description I feel was misleading by leaving out this cut name but mentioning all the other good things. I offered for him to give me a refund of $34.16 which is the cost of the card and what his Ebay fees were as well as what he paid to ship with delivery confirmation. In other words, he is out nothing and I am out the cost of shipping both ways. He agreed and said he was disappointed that the auction said no returns and that he did not feel he was withholding anything.

As I said in the earlier post, my intention was not to sling mud and that is why I did not post the card or a scan but Lee Asked that I do so. As I originally said, I posted because I think it is a topic worth discussing. Lee offered a fair refund and for that I am thankful. I guess I am a little old school in that I, like Bryan, would always offer a refund if the customer was not happy. Especially given these cirumstances. He is out nothing and it's not like I am trying to get over on anybody. I bought a card that I had certain expectations of given the description and scan I had to go on and was unhappy with the card.

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Posted By: petecld

Lee,

Oh, this one! I have this scan from your original auction. I keep it in my "What the (bleep) was SGC thinking" folder.

I'm sorry but even at the small size you can tell the card is so much smaller then the holder and the bottom isn't right but that's just me. I'm going to maintain that a buyer HAS to be responsible enough to question a seller about the card and ask for a better scan and make a decision based on what they see and not what they are told.

If you gave the buyer his money back I certainly understand but I still say the error is on SGC. Lee, did you know in your little heart of hearts that the card was bad and sold it anyway . . . hmmmmmmm.

So what if the buyer had sold it and the second buyer said, "Hey it's trimmed, I want my money back. Is Lee still responsible to the first buyer?

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Posted By: Chris

If not trimmed how do you explain what appears to be the very large difference in the size of the other one I compared it to by placing it on top? The difference was quite dramatic.

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Posted By: leon

You guys know more than I but I don't think it's trimmed either.....obvious miscut to me....never seen a straight trim job with nice, vintage aged corners, and half the name missing....It wouldn't make any sense...and I have that E104 that is badly miscut that SGC wouldn't holder..though, in essence, they said it wasn't trimmed by saying it was miscut (and very much at that)...later

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I trust the opinion of SGC and have a few trimmed and miscut cards returned from them. I got an upgrade so I sold this one. I will be putting the card up on ebay as soon as I received it.

This situation is exactly why I will more than likely never take a refund on a graded card. I have to defend them and it is not worth the hassle.

Sometimes you have to take responsiblity for your own actions.

End of story

Lee

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Posted By: Chris

But if you are going to say in your description, I don't assign a grade but try to decribe it the best I can. Shouldn't you do just that and mention the miscut? Did you honestly feel you were describing the condition the best that you could? Had there ben no description, I may have very well passed on it but felt ok with the way you had it worded.

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Posted By: Chris

If not trimmed, why is there such a large gap in the holder and why when stacking this card on top of another T206 graded by SGC can you see such a large part of the other card? Doesn't the difference in size seem dramatic to anyone else?

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

My guess is that Lee's once and future card is miscut
.....
I generally don't take returns on graded cards either although I guess in the best world Lee would have mentioned the short bottom IF IT ISN'T APPARENT IN THE SCAN. Generally, the scans I use have a Supersize option which I urge the prospective bidder to use.

I do think that the bidder's problem (if the card is indeed trimmed) here is really with SGC not Lee. I also think that, at least under these peculiar circumstances, Lee's willingness to take the card back is quite commendable.

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Posted By: petecld

Personally, I think the card is trimmed. If it was just a mis-cut the top border whould be much wider than it is. Can a card be that o/c AND short AND not trimmed.....I doubt it.

If SGC thought the card was mis-cut Lee would (should) have gotten it back ungraded if the rules applied for everyone. But they graded it so why is the responsibility on Lee? It should be on SGC.

Like Leon's experience, I have cards that are oc 100/0 and SGC wouldn't grade them. They are full size and they didn't come back "evidence of trimming" just "mis-cut". How Lee(?) got that one graded and others don't is fodder for another thread I guess.

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Posted By: Elliot

FWIW, I don't think the card is trimmed. The scan is small and Lee probably should have had a supersize option, but even with the small scan it was obvious that the card was miscut. I think that's probably why the card went for as little as it did, with only 3 bids. Burns usually goes for slightly more than a common, I would expect a "normal 4" would go for $45. Lee was clear in his listing that there was no returns on graded cards, but at the end of the day, it's probably correct to make sure the customer is happy, and Lee and Chris worked out a suitable return that both could live with.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi all,
I have handled hundreds of T206's like this one that appear to have been miscut at the factory. Some of the top and bottom of the sheet cards are found extremely oversized, while cards from the middle are sometimes found slightly undersized. SGC and Beckett holders both accomadate much larger cards than there "normal" size, so some play at the top is Ok. I don't think this card is trimmed, but shows a typical diamond miscut that plagues this series. Quality control in 1909 wasn't that great, so cards of all shapes and sizes exist.
Are there a lot of trimmed cards in graded holders? Yes, but this type of miscut is fairley common. Be well Brian

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Posted By: T206Collector

First, the size of the SGC insert is irrelevant to the actual size of the card. SGC modifies its insert for each card. In this case, they made a bad insert. I have returned cards to them that were not holdered well, and they have fixed them free of charge. The size of the insert changes each time.

Second, I agree with the comments above that the wear exhibited on this card, and the way the cut goes through the name, show that it was likely not trimmed but instead miscut. I recently pulled a stack of 20 T206 cards off a board they had been glued to 100 years ago (using the helpful soaking techniques learned on this board). Those cards were not all the same size. And I'm certain they were not trimmed in 1911. However, if SGC went by size alone, some of those cards would be ungradeable. There simply are more relevant questions to ask about a card to see if it was trimmed than size alone. Indeed, an oversized T206 card can be cut down to average size, but it is still trimmed. (Joe Orlando of PSA once said the same thing and got blasted for it on this board, but there has to be some truth to it.)

Finally, this board is very informative, but it also breeds collector paranoia about tampering and such. It's one thing to question tampering with an ungraded card on ebay. Lord knows there's a lot of counterfeiting and tampering going on there. But it's pretty easy for SGC to determine if a card is trimmed. The card will not look the same on all four edges. I watched an SGC card grader pre-examine some of my T206 cards once at a show, and the first thing he did was hold the card perpendicularly to himself and look at each of the thin edges/sides of the card. I am certain he was checking to see if the wear was uniform. I recently purchased two trimmed T206 cards and it is obvious from the edges what was cut in 1909 and what was cut in 1989.

Personally, I think it's a nice card that got a 4 because it was a little miscut. A pretty typical issue for T206 cards.

I also think that a card graded by SGC or PSA has a lot more accurate information in the number alone than the average description of an ungraded card by the average seller on ebay.

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Posted By: Chris

For those who think the card is not trimmed, and I respect your opinion, what do you base it on? For those that think it isn't, WHY is the card so much shorter? We're not talking about a small difference. We are talking much shorter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it is miscut, shouldn't the card still basically be the same size? I actually brought this up in my very first post on here. How do you tell if a card is trimmed? It is obviously short and the bottom looks to slope to me. Pete and I have given our reasons for thinking it is. What are the reasons it may not be? I will say this, I definately have learned some things with this incident. More and more you learn to buy the card and not the holder. I learned that although I could not see the cut at the bottom of the card, had I looked a little more carefully I would have noticed the gap in the holder. I like Pete, just don't see how a card so short can not be trimmed. I am happy that Lee and I were able to work things out as that I still think is the most important thing. If the person you sell something to isn't happy, shouldn't you try to make him or her happy as long as they are not asking for the moon? Or is the sale that important that people that don't offer returns just don't care if you lose a potential customer? Is it better to refund $ on a card or just tell the customer, no returns, deal with it and make sure that person never buys from you again. Beyond never buying from you again, they tell people. I guess I am just a little surprised at the number of people who don't offer returns. Just seems like bad business to me. I personally think if the card was listed with a nice quality scan and a description that mentioned it as miscut it would sell for less. I can't be sure though. It might sell for more. Who knows.

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Posted By: Chris

Thanks for the info on why you think it is not trimmed. That is what I am looking for. Just happy we worked it out and hope the future owner will be verry happy with their purchase. We need more people in the hobby that are happy with their purchases. It makes for a little less paranoia and a stronger hobby. Most importantly thanks to Lee for satisfying my concerns. It is appreciated.

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Posted By: Aaron M.

Lee:

You are being EXCEEDINGLY generous in offering a refund to the buyer. The picture from the auction is fine (I was expecting a blurred mess from Chris's description). Plus the same "slope" that is apparent from the closer scans provided here on the site is OBVIOUS on the scan on your auction. So, I don't see how Chris can claim he didn't see what he perceives to be evidence of trimming.

On the same note, I am someone who definitely is of the mind that a seller has no obligation to offer a refund to a disappointed buyer on a slabbed card from a reputable grading service (such as PSA or SGC) unless the slab has been tampered with or the seller has sent a different card than the one pictured. Not only, exactly as you state, are you less obligated to describe the card in detail (that's what the grade is for), this does NOT remove the buyer's obligations to ask questions if he or she is in any way unclear of the card's condition and/or not willing to let the grading service's assigned grade rule.

Lastly, I think it was very tacky (borderline black-mail) for Chris to bring your private discussion of how to handle his disappointment onto this site and open it up for discussion when he knows you read and participate regularly, prior to resolving the situation. He obviously was hoping to rally support in order to "shame" you into giving him a refund and instead found more support for your position.

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Posted By: Cy

My comments here are not aimed at Lee's sale but in the sale of graded cards in general. I have dealt with Lee on both ends of a sale and have found him to be quite honorable. I have a problem with any seller not standing behind a graded card. And the number of sellers who are doing this has been rampantly increasing.

When I sell a card whether it is graded or not, I am selling MY card, not SGC's or PSA's card. If a buyer doesn't feel that he received the value that he paid, he has a right to ask for a refund. Period.

When someone buys something over the Internet, there will always be a slight to major discrepancy from the pictured product to the actual product. The buyer should get a chance to view the item in the flesh before he accepts the buy. I don't know who started this "I accept no refunds on graded cards". But it is baloney. Whether a card is in a holder or not, a seller should stand behind his product.

Cy

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Posted By: Chris

You don't even have a clue what you are talking about. I told Lee in a private email that I did not mention his name and WOULD not mention his name and if you look at my second post I stated that. My intentions were not blackmail or shame.

I'm not trying to blackmail anybody. As I told Lee in my email and in my posts out of respect to a board member I did not give the card or the seller's name nor at any time did I intend to.

I felt this a topic worthy of discussion as it is an issue in this hobby.

I'm not trying to blackmail anybody. As I told Lee in my email and in my posts out of respect to a board member I did not give the card or the seller's name nor at ANY time did I intend to.


To Lee's credit he offered if it was alright with me to post the auction and I double checked with him first to make sure it was ok with him. Again, hardly blackmail.

I'm not trying to make enemies Aaron. You can think what you want and others can as well. Lee and I settled on an agreement, we are both ok with it and I hardly think Lee thinks I am blackmailing him.

Ask Lee to send you my emails. They were always polite and told him about my post knowing he reads this board and explained to him it was just a topic for discussion and I have no intention of slinging mud his way.

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Posted By: Chris

At least CY thinks it is a topic of discussion. Really Aaron, no blackmail or shame was intended. If anything, I thought Lee and I were both board members and we could work this out between us with no hard feelings, and we did. I agree with CY, I think people should be able to return graded cards because almost all of us say to buy the card not the holder. So are you buying the card and not the holder but selling the holder and not the card? Does that change when you become a seller?

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Posted By: Chris

Also the blurry mess you expected because I said the scan was somewhat unclear is way off. I even made a point to say I did not think his bad scan was intentional. How is that describing it as a blurry mess? Maybe my eyes are not what they used to be but I don't think it is a clear scan but as I stated in the second post, not Lee's fault or intentions. I think it best not to accuse me of blackmail because you really don't know me or have all the facts.

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Posted By: MW

The T206 in question does not appear to be trimmed, just undersized. As Brian Weisner correctly indicated, this is not an uncommon feature when one is perusing larger groups of T206s.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Thanks Mike and T206 collector,
Anyone who has handled a good number of T206's or been involved with the purchase of a large find, understands the difference between obvious trim jobs and period miscuts. I can provide scans of oversized and undersized cards that were aquired from the original owners in the late 70's early 80's when trimming wasn't really an issue, even for flea market dealers.
Also, I have the highest respect for Lee as a collector and a seller, and will continue to buy and sell T206's with him in the future, no matter what Jay says. Be well all Brian


PS T206 collector, I didn't realize SGC change the size of there inserts, but it makes sense. They have graded all of my oversized T206's......

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Posted By: Aaron M.

"I told Lee in a private email that I did not mention his name and WOULD not mention his name..."

After you started the discussion here? Or did you just tell him that was your intent or both?

"and if you look at my second post I stated that."

It still has the same embarrassing effect to Lee, potentially even harmful to his business.

You are nonsensically acting as if he has no idea who you are talking about or can just passively sit back and let you tell your side of the story without stating his as well.

I find this especially galling on Lee's behalf in that he apparently immediately agreed to give you a refund, despite his clearly stated policy not to, and you found a disagreement over a couple dollars of listing fees enough to mushroom the matter to a board discussion thread where you know Lee frequents.

"I'm not trying to blackmail anybody. As I told Lee in my email and in my posts out of respect to a board member I did not give the card or the seller's name nor at any time did I intend to."

Again, I'm sure Lee would have felt perfectly content to sit back and let you tell your side of the story without offering his POV, especially considering how unbiased you appear and how, several posts later, you continue to claim Lee was at fault in his description and photos, when you were so clearly at fault.

The question as you posit, is whether a seller should offer refunds on slabbed cards. The answer is yes or no. If that discussion, which you claim you believed was worth this board's time, was the point of your posting, then why are you discussing the details of the transaction, the quality of Lee's image or his precise description?

I mean, either you believe the slab's grade rules or you don't. The rest is just you trying to justify your behavior and your side of the story.

This was petty behavior on your part, right or wrong, and I think you owe Lee an apology.

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Posted By: Chris

Call it petty if you want but I don't think a seller should make money off of me with insurance when the package was never insured. I am paying his seller fees, paying his shipping fees, but I do not think I should give him money for insurance when it was not insured just so he can pocket that $. If that is wrong on my part I will be wrong forever. Before you start putting words in my mouth, my points were clear on the subject and can be read. If there is no clear scan and the description says I just try to give the best description possible, I think the seller should mention the miscut and actually give the best description possible. My opinion. There will be some that agree and some that disagree. How can I embarrass Lee when I wasn't even going to use his name? I didn't even mention the card until he told me it was ok because I didn't want anyone looking on Ebay to see it was him. I tried to make my points in regard to the post. I do feel sellers should stand behind their cards and slabs to if they are selling the slab and not the card. I think I made it clear it was not the sellers intention to post a bad scan.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Full disclosure - I've purchased graded cards off ebay and to be honest with you I look at the card more than the grade. I've learned (as probably most people have) that just because a card has a grade of 3 or 4 doesn't mean it doesn't have a crease. I wish people would disclose little defects in the item description rather than have it come as a surprise. Mild creases are difficult to see in scans. Large scans can also help in revealing possible defects but a full disclosure is probably best (unless the defect is visibly obvious).

If the buyer sees something that they don't like then they can ask questions. I realize it's tough when there's 30 minutes left in the auction and you want an answer about an item but that's why accurate descriptions help. Then there is the option to not bid on the item.

Buyers shouldn't have a problem with no returns on graded cards because if the auction description states NO RETURNS ON GRADED CARDS then the seller has disclosed his guidelines regarding the auction. As a buyer I have the right not to bid on the item if I don't like the guidelines set forth in the item description. I've avoided plenty of auctions because the item description contains a clause that makes me uncomfortable.

In an auction the final hammer price has many determining factors and the fact that there are no returns may be a reason for a lower closing bid. Taking that into consideration ALL SALES FINAL (as most auctions are) can mean that the seller is willing to take less money for an item and the buyer might pick up a good deal. I guess this works both ways. Just remember the phrase - caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) and that as a buyer we all have the choice of bidding or not bidding in an auction.

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

Put me in the "not trimmed" but miscut group.

With regard to return policy, I have never sold even one card on ebay, and therefore think that I am fairly immune to being accused of having a seller's bent on the issue. That being said, I don't think there is anything particularly blurry about Lee's scan, nor is there anything very confusing about the terms of his auction. Also, while talk about non-observable creases and whatnot is fine, there's none of that going on with this auction, so far as I can tell.

As best as I can tell, the card was miscut. While my eyesight isn't that great, even I could tell that Burns' full name wasn't on the bottom of the card. I also saw a diamond cut on both the top and the bottom which didn't cause me any heartburn. I don't quite understand why there is so much bitching about alleged problems with the description when there wasn't a problem with the freakin scan to begin with.

Also, what about "No returns on graded cards" is confusing? If you don't like the policy, don't bid. It's as simple as that. LOOK AT THE CARD, not the holder or the description. If you have questions, ask. If you get lied to, that's another matter. But that didn't happen here, and if you fail to do any of the above and then complain when the graded card you receive isn't as wonderful as you thought it would be, that's simply your own fault for not paying attention to begin with. Just my two cents.

Kenny Cole

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Posted By: Aaron M.

"If that is wrong on my part I will be wrong forever."

I think that's the point. You seem so intent on defending your right to a refund and what you perceive to be Lee's mistakes that led to that right, you are not listening to the large number of experienced posters who have said you are flat-out wrong: the card is not trimmed.

Regardless, it's not Lee's policy to give refunds on graded cards (clearly stated in his auction description). What if he were to stick to that policy, content to be "wrong forever" and refuse to accomodate you?

Do you see what an incredible double-standard you've imposed on Lee in this ridiculous thread?

Besides, how much was the insurance? The exact dollar amount? $1.00? $2.00?

That is petty.

Because that's the amount of money that was at issue that caused you to start a discussion thread attacking a fellow poster who had already agreed to give you a refund off a graded card when his policy was not to do so--despite the fact that he posted a clear image of the card and the card's SGC assigned grade and enough reputable collectors and dealers seem to be saying that contrary to what you believe the card is NOT trimmed. .

That's the epitome of petty and a lack of common-sense perspective.

"If there is no clear scan and the description says I just try to give the best description possible, I think the seller should mention the miscut and actually give the best description possible."

There WAS a clear scan. You just missed what you perceive to be a defect.

The description WAS his best possible. He took SGC's word for it that the card was not trimmed.

You are asserting your opinion as fact, even though you claim to not be here to attack Lee or his side of the transaction.

Really, what you should be saying is, "Lee, I'm going to hold you personally responsible if I (not anyone else mind you) think SGC made a mistake and I didn't look at the scan carefully enough."

"How can I embarrass Lee when I wasn't even going to use his name? I didn't even mention the card until he told me it was ok because I didn't want anyone looking on Ebay to see it was him. I tried to make my points in regard to the post."

Oh, forgot. Lee was just supposed to sit back and let you publicly attack his side of the transaction without responding.

You seem to be having a very difficult time seeing this from anyone else's perspective. Try this:

Imagine if you were the seller of a card and the buyer received it but was unhappy and wanted a refund, even though your item description clearly stated that you did not offer refunds (not to mention the fact that you think the buyer's claim is ridiculous).

In a generous move, you agree to give the refund anyway, but the buyer, still so irate over a disputed $1.00-$2.00 insurance charge says that he's going to post about the transaction on a website that you both frequent and discuss his side of the transaction (blaming you for everything).

That's not a form of black-mail? You don't think Lee was thinking, "gee, I better do what this guy says--he seems mentally imbalanced and I want to make sure he doesn't do anything that could hurt my sales or embarras me."

I honestly think, since you've so openly questioned Lee on a public site and he's already lost any motivation for making you happy, that he should forget about giving you the refund. Why should he when you've already done what you've threatened to do?

I mean the classy thing for him to do is give you a refund. Have you responded to his treatment in kind? If you had, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

"I think I made it clear it was not the sellers intention to post a bad scan."

Yes, but you continue to claim it was a "bad scan". Not only was it NOT a bad scan, your claim implies Lee was sloppy and possibly misleading in his listing.

That's not embarrasing? (Or worse?)

Lee had already agreed to eat YOUR mistake/buyer's remorse. Why take this to this to this level over what? $1.00? $2.00?

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Posted By: Chris

Will you get over it. I posted this before I emailed Lee, as stated to open discussion on seeler responsibility. I did not start this thread BECAUSE OF THE INSURANCE. Get your facts straight before you blabber blabber blabber. I didn't threaten Lee with a post. I posted first. I emailed Lee and Lee and I agreed on a refund. You say there is clearly nothing wrong with the scan yet Lee in his own post says the scan is small. The insurance was not what led me to start the thread. If you like I will forward the emails to you and you can look at the time stamps. I accept that others feel it is not trimmed. Good enough for me. After people posted their reasons I did not make that argument. All I wanted was reasons. My original post BEFORE I emailed Lee was started because I do feel like sellers should stand behind their cards. Just take care of the customer. Happy customers spend more $. You make alot of assumptions before you get your facts straight. Seriously if you read all the posts your statements are ridicules and filled with assumptions because you don't have the facts. Until I hear Lee has no beef with me I consider Lee and I to be ok. Should Lee say he has a beef with me I prefer to call the guy and speak to him man to man to work out any differences. I am tired of defending myself to someone who doesn't have the facts and thinks I started this thread after Lee offered a refund or after I emailed him or any of that crap. I started it because I felt it was a worthey discussion. If Lee and I are ok what the heck is your problem?

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Posted By: Chris

One Final note: The facts: Lee did not have to offer a refund. He was nice enough to do so for a fellow net54 member. I thanked him for that and Lee will be out nothing for this. I'm paying all his fees because as stated in one of my first two posts, I do accept some responsibilty on this. Go back and check the POSTS! Lee, if we are still not ok, you have my email address, just email me for my phone number. I would be more than happy to speak with you. If we are ok and you still want to speak on the phone just to better acquaint ourselves, that would be great too. I think it would be great. Was I completely happy with the description? No. I'm over it and I believe Lee is over it. The only one that doesn't seem over it is Aaron and his misguided facts.

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Posted By: John

I have some input on this. I have been collecting T206’s a long time some are smaller than others sorry to say it but its true. I also have some with the name cut a little bit even some with two names. This is an obvious miscut nothing more nothing less. In this situation I suggest you do what most collectors do keep it or upgrade to a better version, or the new trend list it on ebay as a rare printers error. But I really don’t feel it’s trimmed. And if you feel strongly that it is in fact trimmed bring this up with SGC not the seller. If you collect T206’s your bound to get some miscuts.

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Posted By: Aaron M.

Now, Chris, I'm willing to overlook the fact that you avoided answering or even commenting on any of the many issues I raised, but I must take exception with your assertion that you posted here prior to Lee offering a refund.

In one of your above posts you wrote (and then quoted Lee):

"When I first Emailed Lee he replied
I am sorry that you are disappointed with the card. Part of the reason I send cards for grading is so I do not have to describe every detail of the card. I never thought the card was trimmed, especially since it was graded by SGC. (I normally do not take returns on graded cards, which is stated in the auction, but if you would like, return it and I will send you back the purchase price of the card.

Let me know what you plan on doing,"

You then go on to describe your anger that he would withhold shipping insurance costs (and assert that he should cover shipping charges as well).

So, either Lee offered you a refund on the purchase price right off the bat and, as I said and as you said, you continued to make an issue of this over a couple dollars of insurance (which means not only do I have my facts--as you've stated them!-straight, but you are running around in circles in an attempt to defend your actions) and the exact terms of this refund or, as you are now claiming, you posted on this site prior to resolving the transaction with Lee (after blaming the unnamed seller whom you mention is a regular on the site for not properly describing the card and not posting a clear image) in an even more obvious attempt to apply pressure on Lee to give you a refund which satisfied you.

Consistent with your stubborn refusal to recognize the pettiness of your behavior for what it is, your new explanation actually makes you appear even more petty or more guilty of trying to embarrass Lee on this site into giving you what you wanted.

And BTW, the card is not trimmed (according to SGC, Lee and numerous other experienced collectors and dealers on this site). So why exactly does Lee owe you a refund?

I truly don't get your rationale.

And again, I'm still wondering how your behavior after getting a refund to which you had no entitlement while attacking the seller's listing practices on a site you know he frequents (oh, yeah, you said you mention him by name--how kind of you) is not petty behavior on your part? (I also noticed you made a snide comment to him about auction listings on another thread--nice way to show your appreciation!)

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Chris, I do have a few thinks to clear up with you and everyone else on the board.

Anyone that thinks I selfinsure my auctions took the thread I started totally wrong, it was a question. I have no idea where you got the idea my auctions were self insured.

As far as applying a grade: I did not SGC did.

If I state in my auction that I have policies and the bidder doesn't like them don't bid no one is forcing you to bid. The buyer does not make the policies.

I was not afraid to have an auction of mine questioned on the board, (I respect the opinions of board members) because I have nothing to hide and if I am wrong then I have learned something.


The fact that SGC cuts there inserts to different sizes is correct, it is a rare occasion where there is floaters in SGC holders.

There were many good points in the post. as was mentioned, with a better scan I might have got a better price ( was in a hurry that day, I usually post back scans also).

If this cut wasn't miscut would it grade a 60?

I took a beating with Paypal that was not my fault, it gets old and frustrating when you try to do everything right and above board only to take on the chin. Just ask TBOB perfect feedback but it don't matter.

I stand behind my decisions I make and take the lumps when the lumps are due.

This is my end thoughts on this thread.

Lee

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Chris, I am really dissapointed in how you handled this whole matter from the start to the straw breaker, your snide remark in the Clean Sweep thread. You did exactly what you wanted from the get go giving you a refund. AAron has stated this whole thing quite well. You are worried about a couple dollars after I offered you a refund, telling me how I should do thinks. you have attacked me and my auctions and impying that I tried selling the card purposely because I knew it was trimmed.

Your snide remark was totally uncalled for and not needed.

I will send you your refund whe the card arrives and all will end there.

Sorry I thought I was done, but I definately am now.

Lee

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Posted By: Chris

Lee I did not post in the Clean Sweep post. I always log in as vintagechris. It is another cHris posting there.

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Posted By: Chris

There is a least one other Chris that posts here and that is why I always log in under vintagechris.

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Posted By: Chris

Lee, I guess I thought you self insure because I paid for insurance and when the package arrived it only had delivery confirmation on it which is how you said you would do your deliveries if you self insured.

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Posted By: Chris

Lee did respond to my email immediately and offered the refund. Which is when I countered with I didn't feel I should have to pay for the insurance when he didn't insure it. Petty, maybe. I told Lee in that very same email I had already posted on Net54 a thread but did not and would not mention his name. Lee again almost immediately responded that he was ok with that but was disappointed that the auction said no returns. I have these emails for you Aaron. There was never a threat to post anything to strong arm Lee into a refund. Your post are so jumbled with false statements iit is difficult to make out your points. Lee I apologize if I went overboard with my post and I do not post that comment in the Clean Sweep post as I always post under vintagechris. But Aaron your witch hunt is a little ridicules as well as you continue to say I forced Lee into a refund by threatening a post when I and Lee both have the email time stamped at 2:25 I sent him saying I'm just not happy with the card and don't want any hard feelings on either side as I post on net 54 as well. I actually posted something in regards to seller responsibilty on there after receiving this because I was curious as to what others thought. I however did not mention your name or what the card was nor will I because I felt we could work it out. I just felt it was a topic worth discussing. So this will be my lost post on this topic. I have the emails if anyone wants to see them. Lee has the emails if anyone wants to see them.

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Posted By: Chris

I am reposting this because it somehow disappeared after Chris B. responded. I have decided to keep the Bill Burns card and sell it on Ebay when I am able to upgrade. I will list it as miscut. The fact that Aaron has turned this into a blackmail case is crazy. I told Lee of my post and told him I was not using his name or the card in my posts and to Lee's credit he offered to put the auction on there, so we did. I can see how people felt I was attacking Lee's Ebay listing and for that I apologize. But blackmailing Lee into a refund I was not doing. I feel my posts and the emails Lee and I exchanged support that. I am disappointed that Lee chose not to accept a phone call from me because he thought I posted what he perceived as a snide comment in the Clean Sweep thread. I have always and will always continue to log in and post under vintagechris. Chris B. claimed that post in a reply to this original post and hopefully he will do the same or post it in the Clean Sweep thread. I have had one other transaction that I know of with a fellow board memebr and that was with Reid Bruce. He had posted in the Buy/Sell looking for CJ's and I had one he needed. I gave him a clear scan of both front and back, a detailed description and assigned what I thought was a grade of VG-EX. I even told him most dealers on Ebay would grade it EX but I thought it was VG-EX. I feel he was happy with the transaction but you would have to ask him. My final thoughts on this matter is this, life is too short to try to make enemies. I come here for the knowledge and insights of others, not to get into a war of words and I have always and always will try to work my conflicts out with others in a rational manner. If I go about it the wrong way then I will admit that. I am not above admitting when I am wrong about something. We all get carried away at times on this computer and it is easy to jump to conclusions which is precisely why I offered to call Lee to work out any differences.

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Posted By: PeterP

"There was a somewhat unclear scan and as with lots of graded listings it said no returns on graded cards."

>>>If that's the policy and you purchased the card anyway, then that's on you. This is no different, IMO, then a seller saying he only accepts PayPal, and then I insist on paying via personal check, and then complaining on a public forum about it.