Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

First of all, I never said they authenticate everything. But I witnessed jimmie himself, and his "authentication" process. He passed everything I WITNESSED him look at, and only spent mere seconds on each item and very casually at that. They do pass EVERYTHING put in front of them at live signing events and they DO NOT witness the signings. He often would be conversing with the client as he was "authenticating" I saw at least one team ball he did this with. Wouldn't you agree that at the least the "authenticator" and client shouldn't be face to face during the process? I have watched this on more than one occasion.

As for their post signing "authentication" process, that is a joke and could be seen as indicative as to how seriously they take authentication in general. If Jimmie himself is this cavalier in public, imagine how that place runs behind closed doors.

A word of advice. Maybe you should know what you are talking about before you denigrate others. I have witnessed this process first hand, it appears you have not, but are placing blind faith in the process, probably because you have some skin in the game.

I do have a pretty good idea on how autographs are authenticated. I have been buying and selling them for over 30 years. Some take longer and more study and some take merely a glance. If an autograph expert (let's for fun just say it's an expert) only takes 2 seconds to look at an item, it doesn't mean it's not authentic. You are paying for that unbiased "let's also for fun say they're unbiased" authenticators opinion to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and more confident in purchasing the autograph.

If you bring a Babe Ruth ball and it's clearly not a run of the mill forgery, they are going to take much more time on it. They might even ask multiple people for their opinion as well before giving a letter. BTW, letters are signed in front of a notary public and sent out in the mail. Not "voila" or "poof" or whatever you described.

A person pays the authentication company for their opinion, despite many others opinions who think they should be libel for saying it's authentic. This is done to make the buyer feel confident in their purchase having another party say they also believe the item is authentic. OR the seller who is letting buyers know that there is this third party who also agrees with the sellers opinion of authenticity. Items that come with LOA's from PSA and JSA often, if not all times, fetch more at auction or direct sale than those without.

I know this because I do business with some of these authentication companies as I already described. I sell items and guarantee them to pass or they already come with the authentication. This is to increase my bottom line, no other reason. There are plenty of people who refuse to do business with these companies, but try to get top dollar without playing the TPA game nowadays. It doesn't work. If I get a letter and double my money, guess what, i'm getting the letter or COA.

The issue I have with your comment is that you think there is no process and the amount of time is unsatisfactory to you. If they choose to put one second, one minute, or one hour in to an item, that is their right to do so. They are putting their reputation on the line. If their reputation is damaged, then the market will reflect this and their business will go away after the market corrects.

Lastly, There are WAAAAAAYYYYYY more trimmed and altered cards in PSA and SGC holders than there are fake autographs that are authenticated by PSA and JSA. The card game is far worse than the auto game. People may argue with me all they want, but you will never convince me otherwise. Many, many full time dealers "work" on cards before they are sent off to the TPA. Most pass or pass the next time.

Bottom line, complain all you want about the TPA companies but they serve a purpose and command higher dollar results at the end of the day. I sell autographs and memorabilia to make money, the more the better for me an my family.

[Duluth Eskimo]

To get back on task with this thread, that is another great find. That one had a lot of work done to it. Please continue to keep up the work.

[tschock]

There are 2 responses autograph 'opinionators' can make. They believe it is either fake or legit. In the aggregate, the fake opinion is much easier and quicker to make. The legit, not nearly as much. In my view, the real ones opined as fakes, while they do occur, are statistically insignificant compared to the fake ones opined as real.

Their reputation is based more on the fake ones they claim are legit than the legit ones they claim are fake.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I do have a pretty good idea on how autographs are authenticated. I have been buying and selling them for over 30 years. Some take longer and more study and some take merely a glance. If an autograph expert (let's for fun just say it's an expert) only takes 2 seconds to look at an item, it doesn't mean it's not authentic. You are paying for that unbiased "let's also for fun say they're unbiased" authenticators opinion to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and more confident in purchasing the autograph.

If you bring a Babe Ruth ball and it's clearly not a run of the mill forgery, they are going to take much more time on it. They might even ask multiple people for their opinion as well before giving a letter. BTW, letters are signed in front of a notary public and sent out in the mail. Not "voila" or "poof" or whatever you described.

A person pays the authentication company for their opinion, despite many others opinions who think they should be libel for saying it's authentic. This is done to make the buyer feel confident in their purchase having another party say they also believe the item is authentic. OR the seller who is letting buyers know that there is this third party who also agrees with the sellers opinion of authenticity. Items that come with LOA's from PSA and JSA often, if not all times, fetch more at auction or direct sale than those without.

I know this because I do business with some of these authentication companies as I already described. I sell items and guarantee them to pass or they already come with the authentication. This is to increase my bottom line, no other reason. There are plenty of people who refuse to do business with these companies, but try to get top dollar without playing the TPA game nowadays. It doesn't work. If I get a letter and double my money, guess what, i'm getting the letter or COA.

The issue I have with your comment is that you think there is no process and the amount of time is unsatisfactory to you. If they choose to put one second, one minute, or one hour in to an item, that is their right to do so. They are putting their reputation on the line. If their reputation is damaged, then the market will reflect this and their business will go away after the market corrects.

Lastly, There are WAAAAAAYYYYYY more trimmed and altered cards in PSA and SGC holders than there are fake autographs that are authenticated by PSA and JSA. The card game is far worse than the auto game. People may argue with me all they want, but you will never convince me otherwise. Many, many full time dealers "work" on cards before they are sent off to the TPA. Most pass or pass the next time.

Bottom line, complain all you want about the TPA companies but they serve a purpose and command higher dollar results at the end of the day. I sell autographs and memorabilia to make money, the more the better for me an my family.

So you do have some skin in the game and admit fraud is rampant with sigs and trimmed cards but because you make money off of them, then they have a purpose in the hobby.

[packs]

How can you say there is no purpose for TPG's and TPA's? Think about someone you trust in the hobby. Now think about what that person might do if they're faced with a financial hardship. Would that person be tempted to cert their own fraudulent inventory knowing their name attached to it is enough for people to buy them? I would think they might and that's the problem with an individual vs an entire company.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by packs

How can you say there is no purpose for TPG's and TPA's? Think about someone you trust in the hobby. Now think about what that person might do if they're faced with a financial hardship. Would that person be tempted to cert their own fraudulent inventory knowing their name attached to it is enough for people to buy them? I would think they might and that's the problem with an individual vs an entire company.

.... or.... that company sees a revenue stream by 'loose' authentication standards, and knowing the public (ie multiple individuals) interprets 'opinion' to be 'authentication', continues to provide that revenue stream. Or if you'd rather, one company's whole origination is based on a 'loose' authentication.

The point being.... that one is not more susceptible to corruption than the other.

[packs]

Originally Posted by tschock

.... or.... that company sees a revenue stream by 'loose' authentication standards, and knowing the public (ie multiple individuals) interprets 'opinion' to be 'authentication', continues to provide that revenue stream. Or if you'd rather, one company's whole origination is based on a 'loose' authentication.

The point being.... that one is not more susceptible to corruption than the other.

Could not disagree more. It would take an entire company working together to perpetuate the fraud you're talking about vs one person. Also if a TPG did what you're saying they fall out of favor in the hobby and become obsolete, which we've all seen happen to a once prominent TPG who is no longer around and other TPG's no one puts stock in.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by packs

Could not disagree more. It would take an entire company working together to perpetuate the fraud you're talking about vs one person. Also if a TPG did what you're saying they fall out of favor in the hobby and become obsolete, which we've all seen happen to a once prominent TPG who is no longer around and other TPG's no one puts stock in.

I could not disagree more with "entire company". That is blatantly not true. It only takes a couple people to perpetuate company wide fraud. Look at any fraud case you can find. The "entire company" didn't know. If fact, most of the company didn't know.

I'm not saying TPG/TPA's don't provide value. They do. But trust should never be provided blindly. And to believe that "company wide" involvement is needed, is to edge toward that blind trust.

And even more importantly, germane to this thread, and also said before. Opinion is not the same as authentication.

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by irv

So you do have some skin in the game and admit fraud is rampant with sigs and trimmed cards but because you make money off of them, then they have a purpose in the hobby.

You have hit the nail on the head. This guy is an auto dealer and his business in large part hinges on consumer confidence in the "authentication" business. He seems to do lots of business with the TPA and thinks he knows what is going on, has probably been told what is going on, but has clearly never seen it happen first hand. so yes, he has skin in the game and cannot see this house of cards clearly as he is too invested.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

The issue I have with your comment is that you think there is no process and the amount of time is unsatisfactory to you. If they choose to put one second, one minute, or one hour in to an item, that is their right to do so. They are putting their reputation on the line. If their reputation is damaged, then the market will reflect this and their business will go away after the market corrects.

I have no skin in the autograph game - precisely for what has come to light in this thread. While the above that you shared is a great THEORY - taking into consideration the imperfection of markets - it is often NOT how it works in practice. I have read a number of articles and watched a specific video done under cover catching Spence authenticating a signature that the under cover reporter had signed hours earlier and confronted by the ball player (Sal Bando). Problem is - most collectors do not do the same level of due diligence and do not know about these incidents - as most will never read this thread! So history has shown - there is no "market correction" as you suggest - just the continued proliferation of greed, forged autographs, altered cards and worthless opinions. While I do not know who they are, I understand there are guys doing this for long enough that the small few "in the know" rely on for truly expert opinions - guys who may have made honest mistakes, but have stood the test of time without the repeated carelessness and controversy and apparent negligence as some mentioned in this thread. Forgery is a crime. Is claiming to be an "expert" when your history has shown (imo) that you are not? Outside of netting you more money - how is this all possibly good for the hobby?

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I do have a pretty good idea on how autographs are authenticated. I have been buying and selling them for over 30 years. Some take longer and more study and some take merely a glance. If an autograph expert (let's for fun just say it's an expert) only takes 2 seconds to look at an item, it doesn't mean it's not authentic. You are paying for that unbiased "let's also for fun say they're unbiased" authenticators opinion to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and more confident in purchasing the autograph.

If you bring a Babe Ruth ball and it's clearly not a run of the mill forgery, they are going to take much more time on it. They might even ask multiple people for their opinion as well before giving a letter. BTW, letters are signed in front of a notary public and sent out in the mail. Not "voila" or "poof" or whatever you described.

A person pays the authentication company for their opinion, despite many others opinions who think they should be libel for saying it's authentic. This is done to make the buyer feel confident in their purchase having another party say they also believe the item is authentic. OR the seller who is letting buyers know that there is this third party who also agrees with the sellers opinion of authenticity. Items that come with LOA's from PSA and JSA often, if not all times, fetch more at auction or direct sale than those without.

I know this because I do business with some of these authentication companies as I already described. I sell items and guarantee them to pass or they already come with the authentication. This is to increase my bottom line, no other reason. There are plenty of people who refuse to do business with these companies, but try to get top dollar without playing the TPA game nowadays. It doesn't work. If I get a letter and double my money, guess what, i'm getting the letter or COA.

The issue I have with your comment is that you think there is no process and the amount of time is unsatisfactory to you. If they choose to put one second, one minute, or one hour in to an item, that is their right to do so. They are putting their reputation on the line. If their reputation is damaged, then the market will reflect this and their business will go away after the market corrects.

Lastly, There are WAAAAAAYYYYYY more trimmed and altered cards in PSA and SGC holders than there are fake autographs that are authenticated by PSA and JSA. The card game is far worse than the auto game. People may argue with me all they want, but you will never convince me otherwise. Many, many full time dealers "work" on cards before they are sent off to the TPA. Most pass or pass the next time.

Bottom line, complain all you want about the TPA companies but they serve a purpose and command higher dollar results at the end of the day. I sell autographs and memorabilia to make money, the more the better for me an my family.

I said nothing about trimmed or altered cards. you added that little tid bit to try and deflect from the topic at hand. not applicable here. The authentication game is faulty from the start. first off, where do these "experts" get their training? you will probably never get an answer from any of the TPA on that one. if they did answer the question, they would probably say their experts have years and years and years of experience..... well, where did that experience come from? I believe both Spence and Steve Grad "studied" under everyones favorite, Bill Mastro.

One can have all the experience in the world and it is all worthless if the person they are apprenticed under is not qualified themselves. remember, only perfect practice makes perfect. everything else is just practiced mistakes.

It is relatively easy to create these forgeries, but the "experts" seem to have a much harder time finding them. at some point, collectors at large will realize the "authenticated" signature is nothing more than a piece of paperwork, and really doesnt amount to a hill of beans

[Duluth Eskimo]

You’re right. I’m trying to deflect because you have me all tied up with your genius ramblings. I’m going to go lay by my dish completely defeated.

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

You’re right. I’m trying to deflect because you have me all tied up with your genius ramblings. I’m going to go lay by my dish completely defeated.

sounds good.

[packs]

How can you say it's so easy to make these forgeries? People were fooled for years in some cases. And not just the TPA's, but people who have been in the hobby for a very long time and might consider themselves experts in this very specific area.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by packs

How can you say it's so easy to make these forgeries? People were fooled for years in some cases. And not just the TPA's, but people who have been in the hobby for a very long time and might consider themselves experts in this very specific area.

Lots of dummies in this hobby. Lots of dummies in this hobby who seem to want to be fooled. Lots of dummies in this hobby who appoint themselves as experts.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Lots of dummies in this hobby. Lots of dummies in this hobby who seem to want to be fooled. Lots of dummies in this hobby who appoint themselves as experts.

Again to the point of why I don't collect autos. As a kid, the fact that a card was "old" was cool enough for me. Look at this thing that came out of a pack 30, 50, even 75 years ago! At least for items like tobacco cards or Goudeys, it seems a little too good to be true for all of those that are coming out now to have been autographed as well. But to the points made earlier - people get all romanticized about something and can lose reasonable objectivity. I get it.

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by packs

How can you say it's so easy to make these forgeries? People were fooled for years in some cases. And not just the TPA's, but people who have been in the hobby for a very long time and might consider themselves experts in this very specific area.

there are artists who would not have much problem at all replicating the shaky signatures of men in their 70's and 80's.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

I said nothing about trimmed or altered cards. you added that little tid bit to try and deflect from the topic at hand. not applicable here. The authentication game is faulty from the start. first off, where do these "experts" get their training? you will probably never get an answer from any of the TPA on that one. if they did answer the question, they would probably say their experts have years and years and years of experience..... well, where did that experience come from? I believe both Spence and Steve Grad "studied" under everyones favorite, Bill Mastro.

One can have all the experience in the world and it is all worthless if the person they are apprenticed under is not qualified themselves. remember, only perfect practice makes perfect. everything else is just practiced mistakes.

It is relatively easy to create these forgeries, but the "experts" seem to have a much harder time finding them. at some point, collectors at large will realize the "authenticated" signature is nothing more than a piece of paperwork, and really doesnt amount to a hill of beans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVbgxFF0SaU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCGxsGelS50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NADYoGCl1Mc

There's a ton of these vids available but as we have seen and learned, likely not many know these are available and should be watched before purchasing anything signed.

[1880nonsports]

or not - your forgeries news links linked to more links and I've already spent an hour looking at them. I bookmarked the Halper one to savor after my gin game...…….

[daves_resale_shop]

Any update on who the culprit(s) are?

[Leon]

The parties that have been the most affected know the name and are still working with authorities. I just got off of the phone with one of them and there is no new news so the situation is the same. If someone has some emergency issue, or thinks they have bad signed cards from this same person, they should PM me and we can discuss it. I know some people hate that the name hasn't been made public but as of this moment it's not the most prudent thing, imo, or the opinions of the few people who have had to write refund checks.

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

Any update on who the culprit(s) are?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

The parties that have been the most affected know the name and are still working with authorities. I just got off of the phone with one of them and there is no new news so the situation is the same. If someone has some emergency issue, or thinks they have bad signed cards from this same person, they should PM me and we can discuss it. I know some people hate that the name hasn't been made public but as of this moment it's not the most prudent thing, imo, or the opinions of the few people who have had to write refund checks.

Thanks for the update and I realize you can't divulge too much information, but is it a name we'll recognize?

[Jasonxmay]

Next to REA I’ve written the biggest refund check for a single card as I authorized Brian to withhold the $21,000 that I would have received from the sale of the Baker that I had purchased from REA in 2015. I should also add that Brian refunded me for the $9,000 I paid for the card originally, so although I lost $12,000, I’m not out anything. I’ve had two separate people message me with the same information regarding the culprit. The first person wanted me to release the information, but then changed his mind at the request of the investigators. Because I’m an attorney I felt that the communication was confidential and so I did not release it at that time. However, another individual has now asked that I release the information on his behalf and since I see no compelling reason not to I am going to disclose it. I practice exclusively criminal defense and I can guarantee that there is absolutely no legitimate reason that law enforcement would not want this information released. Here is the information I have regarding the identity of the subject/suspect:

eBay ID: givepeaceachance14
eBay location: Girard, OH

Originally Posted by Leon

The parties that have been the most affected know the name and are still working with authorities. I just got off of the phone with one of them and there is no new news so the situation is the same. If someone has some emergency issue, or thinks they have bad signed cards from this same person, they should PM me and we can discuss it. I know some people hate that the name hasn't been made public but as of this moment it's not the most prudent thing, imo, or the opinions of the few people who have had to write refund checks.