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  #1  
Old 12-18-2017, 08:05 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Joe Doyle N.Y. NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"......PART 2

Sept 2007, I started a thread on this forum titled Joe Doyle N.Y. NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"...... Elite 11

What originally influenced me to arrive at an association with the Joe Doyle error card and the Elite 11 is the story of Senator Richard Russell's original tobacco card collection (which is
on display at the Univ. of Georgia).

As some of you know, Russell's T206 set is very unusual, as it has both the Ty Cobb/TY COBB and the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards. Now, here's where this story becomes very intriguing.
Approx. 9 years ago, a bunch of T206's from the Elite 11 group with PIEDMONT 350 backs were listed on Ebay. I won all of these rare cards; and, I contacted the Seller (who owned
an Antique shop in Atlanta, GA.
This Seller told me that a lady (who had purchased a desk from the Russell estate) found a considerable number of tobacco cards in this desk's drawer, and she brought them to him.
This story aroused my curiosity, so for the past 10 years (or so) I have been tracking the source of original T206 collections which have included some (or all) of the Elite 11 cards.
Well, every one of these sources are strictly from Georgia. No other location has been a source of the Elite 11 cards. Furthermore, there are only 9 examples of the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L
card which have been confirmed (to date).


Sorry guys for this lengthy discourse. My point here is this....when the printers at American Lithographic caught their mistake very quickly on the Joe Doyle card's caption, they simply
discarded the entire 12-card strip which included the Elite 11 cards and the Joe Doyle error card.

Finally, last time I checked out the pop report data on the Elite 11 guys, it correlates very closely to the pop report data of the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card.



J Doyle NY Nat'l..^



Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
The Elite 11 subjects are originally 150 Series subjects. When ALC started printing the 350-series cards they included 150 series subjects in the mix. The following info
may also explain why the Elite 11 subjects were short-printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs.

Dahlen (Boston)....joined Brooklyn, Oct 27, 1909

Ewing..................traded to Phillies, Jan 20, 1910

Ganley.................ML career ended, Sept 27, 1909

Tom Jones............traded to Detroit, Aug 20, 1909

Karger.................traded to Boston AL. Jul 26, 1909

Lindaman.............released from Boston NL, Jul 26, 1909

Lundgren..............ML career ended, Apr 23, 1909

Schaefer...............traded to Washington, Aug 13, 1909

Al Shaw................ML career ends 1909

Spencer................played only 28 games with Boston AL in 1909

Mullin................... ? ? (long and very successful Pitcher with Detroit)


And, then there is......a single Schulte (front) with PIEDMONT 350 back. I do not consider this subject as part of the Elite 11 group, until I see an EPDG back on this card.

TED Z
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TED Z

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Last edited by tedzan; 12-19-2017 at 07:46 AM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #2  
Old 12-18-2017, 08:23 PM
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Ted, I don't think Doyle a 350 only subject would have been on a sheet
with eleven 150/350 subjects.
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  #3  
Old 12-18-2017, 11:31 PM
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So we should expect to see more than 9 examples of the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L?? Or those Elite 11 should only have 9 examples out there?
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  #4  
Old 12-19-2017, 06:46 AM
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Default Joe Doyle N.Y. NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"......PART 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Ted, I don't think Doyle a 350 only subject would have been on a sheet
with eleven 150/350 subjects.
Hi Pat

Do we really know if American Litho (ALC) printed 350-only subjects with 150/350 subjects on the same sheets when ALC started printing 350 backs on the 150 series cards ?

However, we do know for sure that the 1st series printing of T215-1 cards (circa 1910) is comprised of a mixture of 150/350, 350-only, and 350/460 series cards.


TED Z

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  #5  
Old 12-19-2017, 09:31 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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That's pretty interesting.

Certainly something to think about.

The repair done on the Doyle from all indications was simply stoning off the unwanted "Natl". I think the cards showing remnants of the N are solid evidence of that being done. The alternative would be remaking the entire stone for that color.

But that also means that we'll probably never know. The repair would have been done early, and there are enough regular Doyles that any that were intended to be that early would get lost in the crowd.

It's possible they caught it, made the correction and finished the sheets already started intending to carry over the other 11 into the 350 series. The couple populations I looked at for epdg are really close, so maybe.

Then the corrected version got put onto another sheet that didn't include the other 11 because the lead time pushed production back enough that the other 11 guys were already out of the 350s

Food for thought, we'd know more if we could get a population on the ones showing a partial repair. Not much more since we don't know how many positions had the partial repair, but a bit more.
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  #6  
Old 12-19-2017, 01:33 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
That's pretty interesting.


Food for thought, we'd know more if we could get a population on the ones showing a partial repair. Not much more since we don't know how many positions had the partial repair, but a bit more.

Steve I ran a Net54 survey on the Joe Doyle printer's mark some years ago. The "poor man's" Joe Doyle error card (as I have coined it) appears approx. 7 % of the sampled cards.
Sample size was approx. 200+ cards......I think. I'll try and find this thread and post it here.


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  #7  
Old 12-19-2017, 01:44 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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That's good enough for me, 7% is consistent with one position on a sheet roughly 14 cards tall. (12 is only around 8%, so a pretty wide range of other sizes work too.) So it makes sense if they missed a bit on one location while doing the repair.
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  #8  
Old 12-19-2017, 02:18 PM
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The repair done on the Doyle from all indications was simply stoning off the unwanted "Natl". I think the cards showing remnants of the N are solid evidence of that being done.

Is there a premium on these cards? I have a Doyle with a pretty neat portion of the NY Nat'l. Actually just a piece of the first N. But really neat....
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  #9  
Old 12-19-2017, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
That's pretty interesting.

Certainly something to think about.

The repair done on the Doyle from all indications was simply stoning off the unwanted "Natl". I think the cards showing remnants of the N are solid evidence of that being done. The alternative would be remaking the entire stone for that color.

But that also means that we'll probably never know. The repair would have been done early, and there are enough regular Doyles that any that were intended to be that early would get lost in the crowd.

It's possible they caught it, made the correction and finished the sheets already started intending to carry over the other 11 into the 350 series. The couple populations I looked at for epdg are really close, so maybe.

Then the corrected version got put onto another sheet that didn't include the other 11 because the lead time pushed production back enough that the other 11 guys were already out of the 350s

Food for thought, we'd know more if we could get a population on the ones showing a partial repair. Not much more since we don't know how many positions had the partial repair, but a bit more.
There is a flaw on both that shows that they used the same sheet after they
removed the NAT'L.

Doyle NY Nat'L.jpg
Doyle NY Nat'L Back.jpg
Doyle.jpg
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Old 12-19-2017, 03:37 PM
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The Georgia connection is really cool. But the Doyle wouldn't have been on the same sheet as the Elite 11 guys. It's also very unlikely that the 11 were ever side-by-side on a sheet (because we know they weren't side-by-side on Piedmont 150 sheets).
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  #11  
Old 12-19-2017, 04:30 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
That's good enough for me, 7% is consistent with one position on a sheet roughly 14 cards tall. (12 is only around 8%, so a pretty wide range of other sizes work too.) So it makes sense if they missed a bit on one location while doing the repair.

Hey Steve

My records indicate 16 cards of Joe Doyle with printer's mark from a survey of 204 samples.....resulting in 7.9 %.



............................................l..... .................................................. ..............…....l Printer's Mark




TED Z

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Last edited by tedzan; 05-08-2020 at 03:38 PM. Reason: Replaced scan.
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  #12  
Old 12-19-2017, 06:38 PM
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Ted,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Doyle Nat'L (on the left) that you posted a fake?

Jantz
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Old 12-19-2017, 07:24 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Hi Jantz

You are correct, it is a re-print. I'm searching to find my scan of the real Doyle Nat'L card I had in Photobucket.
But, as you know Photobucket is now useless. So, for comparison's sake I posted this one.
When I find my real Joe Doyle scan, I will replace this reprint.

Anyhow, for now it serves the purpose of this display.


TED Z

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Last edited by tedzan; 12-23-2017 at 08:37 AM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #14  
Old 12-19-2017, 09:53 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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OK Jantz....I found my scan of the real Joe Doyle Nat'L card, and I have replaced the re-printed one in the above post.


TED Z

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  #15  
Old 12-20-2017, 05:12 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Joe Doyle N.Y. NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"......PART 2

The Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'l card was printed ONLY with the PIEDMONT 350 back. American Lithographic (ALC) caught their mistake very quickly on the Joe Doyle card's
caption (Doyle was a pitcher for the NY Highlanders), and removed the "Nat'L" lettering. The initial press runs on the T206 backs usually being PIEDMONT 350.
Notwithstanding ALC's quick caption correction.....several Joe Doyle error cards were shipped to Factory #25 in Virginia. How many were inserted into PIEDMONT packs
we will never know. To date, exactly 9 of these Joe Doyle error cards have been confirmed **.
Furthermore, my research has revealed that 2 (perhaps a 3rd) of the 9 known Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards have been discovered in original collections which have emanated
from the greater Atlanta area.

The Georgia connection with the Joe Doyle error card and the Elite 11 cards may be just a coincidence. Or, may be real as my original theory proposes here in Post #1.





POP Report data (for whatever it's worth, as I'm sure there are some crossed-over cards in these tallies). Note the close comparison to the known Doyle error cards.

Elite 11 ..............SGC + PSA......Ungraded (mine)

Dahlen (Boston)........... 4 ................. 2

Ewing......................... 9 ................. 2

Ganley....................... 15 ................ 1

Tom Jones.................. 11 ................ 1

Karger........................ 11 ................ 1

Lindaman.................... 9 .................. 1

Lundgren (Cubs)......... 13 .................. 2

Mullin.......................... 1 .................. 4

Schaefer (Detroit)......... 7 .................. 1

Al Shaw...................... 10 ................. 1

Spencer....................... 4 .................. 0



** Note....a number of "fake" Doyle error cards have surfaced since the late 1980's. Some of these were even graded. The most notorious one with a POLAR BEAR back.



TED Z

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Last edited by tedzan; 12-23-2017 at 08:45 AM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #16  
Old 12-20-2017, 07:42 PM
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Ted, did you miss my reply and Pat's reply earlier?

It's cool to try and think outside the box and come up with theories, but this one is completely misguided and replies on false premises. I think it would be better if you made it clear these are just ideas you have when you post stuff like this. You write it as if it's fact, and people who are less knowledgeable about the set might read it and believe it's true because you have a reputation as a guy who knows T206s.

There's no connection between Doyle and the Elite 11 because they are from different print groups. Doyle was never printed on the same sheet with any of the Elite 11 poses.

The Elite 11 poses were never printed side-by-side. You're misunderstanding their connection. They are connected, but it's because their careers changed soon after T206 production began and they were pulled from production early in the Piedmont 350 print run. You actually mention in your post the specific reasons that each players was pulled from the set. So, you do understand it, you're just going one step too far by suggesting that they were printed next to each other on the same sheet.

We know from Pat's research that they were not printed together. They were placed randomly on sheets just like every other pose. In order for all of the Elite 11 poses to be printed together, ALC would have had to sit down at the beginning of T206 production and said, "Alright, Dahlen is going to get released in October 1909, Ewing is going to get traded January 20th 1910, Ganley will get selected off waivers by Philadelphia on May 18th, 1909, Lindaman, Lundgren, and Shaw will be out of the Majors in a year... So, we should place these 11 poses next to each other for easy removal from the set in a year or so."

In other words, they would have had to see into the future in order to place them side-by-side on a sheet. You saying that those 11 poses were next to each other on a sheet is the same thing as me saying all the Hall of Famers from the T206 set were side-by-side on a sheet. I'm using a connection that could only be made years later, and misapplying it.

Here's a Piedmont 150 sheet that shows that Schaefer, Mullin and Lindaman were not next to each other.

https://photos.imageevent.com/patric.../Sheet%203.jpg
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Old 12-20-2017, 09:04 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Hey Luke

I replied to Pat's comment in Post #4.

For starters....I will first ask you the same as I asked him......
" Do we really know if American Litho (ALC) printed 350-only subjects with 150/350 subjects on the same sheets when ALC started printing 350 backs on the 150 series cards ? "

Do you have any proof that ALC did not ? ? Show it to me !

Because we certainly do know ALC in their 1st series printing of T215-1 cards (circa 1910) there is a mixture of 150/350, 350-only, and 350/460 series cards. Which confirms to
us that in certain new series, ALC re-arranged their printing plates, and also added new plates.


2nd....You're assuming that ALC started their 350 press runs of 150 series cards using the same sheets that ALC used when they printed the 150 press runs.
Well, let's see your proof of this ?

3rd....Look here, you don't have to tell me anything about the Elite 11 that I don't already know. Ten years ago on this forum, I presented my theory regarding the Elite 11 (when no
one here was aware of the scarcity of these T206 subjects with PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs.

But, now you write up in your blog just about everything I have for years presented on this forum....and, you don't even possess the common decency to acknowledge my research ! !

4th.... And, quit the crap of trying to lecture me regarding the career status of 10 (of the 11) guys. The following is an excerpt of what I posted on Net54 some time ago......

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
The Elite 11 subjects are originally 150 Series subjects. When ALC started printing the 350-series cards they included 150 series subjects in the mix. The following info
may also explain why the Elite 11 subjects were short-printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs.

Dahlen (Boston)....joined Brooklyn, Oct 27, 1909

Ewing..................traded to Phillies, Jan 20, 1910

Ganley.................ML career ended, Sept 27, 1909

Tom Jones............traded to Detroit, Aug 20, 1909

Karger.................traded to Boston AL. Jul 26, 1909

Lindaman.............released from Boston NL, Jul 26, 1909

Lundgren..............ML career ended, Apr 23, 1909

Schaefer...............traded to Washington, Aug 13, 1909

Al Shaw................ML career ends 1909

Spencer................played only 28 games with Boston AL in 1909

Mullin................... ? ? (long and very successful Pitcher with Detroit)


And, then there is......a single Schulte (front) with PIEDMONT 350 back. I do not consider this subject as part of the Elite 11 group, until I see an EPDG back on this card.


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  #18  
Old 12-23-2017, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hey Luke

I replied to Pat's comment in Post #4.

For starters....I will first ask you the same as I asked him......
" Do we really know if American Litho (ALC) printed 350-only subjects with 150/350 subjects on the same sheets when ALC started printing 350 backs on the 150 series cards ? "

Do you have any proof that ALC did not ? ? Show it to me !

Because we certainly do know ALC in their 1st series printing of T215-1 cards (circa 1910) there is a mixture of 150/350, 350-only, and 350/460 series cards. Which confirms to
us that in certain new series, ALC re-arranged their printing plates, and also added new plates.


2nd....You're assuming that ALC started their 350 press runs of 150 series cards using the same sheets that ALC used when they printed the 150 press runs.
Well, let's see your proof of this ?

3rd....Look here, you don't have to tell me anything about the Elite 11 that I don't already know. Ten years ago on this forum, I presented my theory regarding the Elite 11 (when no
one here was aware of the scarcity of these T206 subjects with PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs.

But, now you write up in your blog just about everything I have for years presented on this forum....and, you don't even possess the common decency to acknowledge my research ! !

4th.... And, quit the crap of trying to lecture me regarding the career status of 10 (of the 11) guys. The following is an excerpt of what I posted on Net54 some time ago......





TED Z

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No Ted I guess we can't prove with absolute certainty that ALC didn't print
350 only subjects on sheets with 150/350 subjects but from what we do
know about the printing it's unlikely that they did.

A few reasons why it's unlikely that Doyle was printed on a sheet with the
elite eleven.....

For starters Doyle isn't a true 350 only subject. He was printed with an
Apple green Sovereign 350 back so he was printed later in the 350 series
which makes him a print group 3 subject.
Doyle Sov 350.jpg

There are no miscut front cards with a 150/350 subject and a 350 only or 350/460 subject.

Of the 40+ confirmed two name cards both names are all either 150/350 or 350 only or in a couple of examples 350 only/super print.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=142480&page=5
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Old 12-24-2017, 10:16 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
No Ted I guess we can't prove with absolute certainty that ALC didn't print
350 only subjects on sheets with 150/350 subjects but from what we do
know about the printing it's unlikely that they did.

A few reasons why it's unlikely that Doyle was printed on a sheet with the
elite eleven.....

For starters Doyle isn't a true 350 only subject. He was printed with an
Apple green Sovereign 350 back so he was printed later in the 350 series
which makes him a print group 3 subject.
Attachment 299902

There are no miscut front cards with a 150/350 subject and a 350 only or 350/460 subject.

Of the 40+ confirmed two name cards both names are all either 150/350 or 350 only or in a couple of examples 350 only/super print.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=142480&page=5


Pat

This statement by T206resource is very misleading......

"For starters Doyle isn't a true 350 only subject. He was printed with an
Apple green Sovereign 350 back so he was printed later in the 350 series
which makes him a print group 3 subject."



These 66 subjects were initially printed as 350-only cards when American Litho (ALC) started printing the 350 series cards. Subsequently, ALC chose these 66 subjects
for the 350/460 series. During the SOVEREIGN 350 print runs, ALC identified these 66 guys with "apple green" backs. As we know, Joe Doyle's career ended before the
350/460 print runs (circa late 1910 > early 1911). Therefore, this subject is indeed a 350-only card. Which I believe was printed very early in the 350-series press runs.
I base this on these 2 factors......
Richard Russell's Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card must have been acquired early in 1910 (or late 1909). As, 96 % of the subjects in the 350-series part of his collection have
PIEDMONT 350 backs.
And, mostly this one....The corrected Joe Doyle card with an EPDG back is very rare.



v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v









Furthermore, I will repeat....the T215-1 (RED CROSS) series....which was printed in the same timeline (circa 1910) as these T206's....comprises of a mixture of 150/350,
350-only, and 350/460 cards in their 1st series. Which absolutely confirms that in certain series, ALC re-arranged their printing plates from other print runs (and perhaps
also added new plates).

Your "plate scratch" project is an excellent analysis, and I commend you for your work. However as I see it, so far it only applies to PIEDMONT 150 sheets.
Regarding print runs of subsequent series and the various other T206 brands, I think different things occurred (that remain to be analyzed).


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Old 12-24-2017, 11:54 AM
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Ted, I don't know why you think I said ALC didn't re-arrange the sheets
as a matter of fact I've posted several times that I think the layouts
and sheet sizes were changed through out the printing process but
I don't believe that 150/350 subjects were on the same sheet as
350 only or 350/460 subjects or that Doyle was printed very early
in the 350 printing.

I don't know that much about the T215-1 cards but I do know they
are scarce enough that it's hard to compare them with any
regular T206 printing.

Do you know for a fact that there were different
series together on the same sheet? As far as I know a single
Mathewson (White Cap) is the only confirmed 150/350 subject how do
we know that there wasn't a sheet of 150/350's printed and they are
scarce enough that no others have surfaced.

Do you believe that the Forrest Green Sovereign was printed before the
Apple Green and if you do why was Doyle printed with Apple green if he was
printed early in the 350 printing?

Last edited by Pat R; 12-24-2017 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 12-24-2017, 01:36 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post

I don't know that much about the T215-1 cards but I do know they
are scarce enough that it's hard to compare them with any
regular T206 printing.
Pat
Check out the Standard Catalogue, all 96 cards in the T215 set are listed. My research iidicates that possibly two 48-card print runs were done. The 1st series in 1910 and the 2nd series of 48 cards in 1911 > 1912.
The Matty (white cap) was most likely included in the 1st series (with 350-only cards). It's interesting to see how up-to-date these cards are regarding trades. For example....Huggins (hands at mouth) is Cincinnati.
And, Huggins (portrait) is St. Louis.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Do you know for a fact that there were different
series together on the same sheet? As far as I know a single
Mathewson (White Cap) is the only confirmed 150/350 subject how do
we know that there wasn't a sheet of 150/350's printed and they are
scarce enough that no others have surfaced.
All 96 subjects in the T215-1 and T215-2 set are accounted for. Also, there are 2 cards of Byrne (Pittsburg and St Louis). Furthermore, a complete "PIRATE" set was discovered some years ago [97 cards (with Byrne's variations)].
The "PIRATE" set mirrors the T215 set.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Do you believe that the Forrest Green Sovereign was printed before the
Apple Green and if you do why was Doyle printed with Apple green if he was
printed early in the 350 printing?
Absolutely, the "forest green" SOVEREIGN 350 backs were printed before the "apple green" SOVEREIGN 350 backs.

And, as I've stated before, ALC selected 66 subjects to be extended into the 350/460 series. Three of these 66 guys were not printed with 460-type backs since their careers ended in the Major Leagues (Joe Doyle, Simon Nicholls,
Bob Rhoades). Why ALC printed the backs of these 66 subjects with a lighter ciolored Green ink is not really known.
My guess is that ALC simply wanted to distinguish them from the sheets with the regular 350-only cards.

Footnote.... Joe Doyle was a promising pitcher when he joined the Highlanders. And, ALC (being based in New York City) naturally favored the New York BB teams. And, I think ALC wanted to print more cards of him.


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  #22  
Old 12-24-2017, 03:49 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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How about this?

It's Christmas, whether you celebrate it or not, kick back with your favorite beverage and have a wonderful evening!

After the holiday, lets get some high res scans of a bunch of both 150/350 and 350/460 cards and see if we can come up with two sets of identifiable positions or not. That may allow us to separate the 150's from 350's. Then we can compare to the elite 11 cards and see which group they match. That would also prove/disprove there being a clear division between series. I thought there was, but now I'm unsure. It's most likely 150/carryover or leftovers/350.

The Sovereign 350s may be a bit of a key, I'm currently thinking that the change wasn't a marker, just a change in the recepie for the ink. Probably leaving out some black to save money. But I'm open to changing that opinion.
I'm fairly certain the sheet size and layout may have varied between not only series but brand.

Have a great holiday, and lets get after this come the new year.
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  #23  
Old 12-27-2017, 06:44 AM
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With the exception of Dahlen and Lundgren who's team changes on
their cards resulted in them being short printed PD350's I don't think
the careers of the other nine were the reason for them being PD350
short prints.

There were lot's of other subjects from the 150/350 series with team
changes or whose career ended in the same time frame that are not
PD350 short prints.

Most notably Fielder Jones who has two 150/350 poses and his
career basically ended in 1908. He didn't play at all from 1909
until 1914 when he had 3 at bats with the STL terriers and
6 at bats with them in 1915 at the end of his career.

The following players careers ended in the same time frame as the elite 11


Alperman - 10/2/09
Bowerman - 7/13/09
Jiggs Donohue - 10/2/09
Ferris - 10/2/09
Billy Gilbert - 6/27/09
Bill henchman - Didn't play again until 1915 after the 1909 season ended
Isbell - 10/2/09
Liebhardt - 8/5/09
Frank Owen - 5/12/09
Pastorious - 8/23/09
Ritchey - 6/24/09
Shipke - 5/13/09
Weimer - Played in one game in 1909 5/28/09
Jimmy Williams - 10/3/09


I think the reason that nine of the elite 11 are PD350 short prints
is a matter of them getting omitted when they made the full change
to the 350 printing.
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  #24  
Old 12-28-2017, 10:43 AM
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Default Joe Doyle N.Y. NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"......PART 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
With the exception of Dahlen and Lundgren who's team changes on
their cards resulted in them being short printed PD350's I don't think
the careers of the other nine were the reason for them being PD350
short prints.

There were lot's of other subjects from the 150/350 series with team
changes or whose career ended in the same time frame that are not
PD350 short prints.

Most notably Fielder Jones who has two 150/350 poses and his
career basically ended in 1908. He didn't play at all from 1909
until 1914 when he had 3 at bats with the STL terriers and
6 at bats with them in 1915 at the end of his career.

The following players careers ended in the same time frame as the elite 11


Alperman - 10/2/09
Bowerman - 7/13/09
Jiggs Donohue - 10/2/09
Ferris - 10/2/09
Billy Gilbert - 6/27/09
Bill henchman - Didn't play again until 1915 after the 1909 season ended
Isbell - 10/2/09
Liebhardt - 8/5/09
Frank Owen - 5/12/09
Pastorious - 8/23/09
Ritchey - 6/24/09
Shipke - 5/13/09
Weimer - Played in one game in 1909 5/28/09
Jimmy Williams - 10/3/09


I think the reason that nine of the elite 11 are PD350 short prints
is a matter of them getting omitted when they made the full change
to the 350 printing.

Thanks, Pat....thank you.

For reminding me that I did a similar study some years ago (including a few more 150/350 guys). But, when you check out the Pop Report data of these subjects,
you will see that their pop number's vary from 20-40 cards each with PIEDMONT 350 backs. Therefore, I considered that their situation did not compare with the
Elite 11 subjects.
Furthermore let me add that perhaps the Elite 11 were not consecutively positioned as I have shown in Post #1. But, they were printed on the same sheet as the
initial Joe Doyle print run.

In the late 1950's when I was in High School, I worked in a print shop. I tell you this, because I recall when the printer made a minor mistake, they simply threw
away the entire sheet.
Then corrected their mistake and started cranking-out new sheets. I think this is what occurred here.


I maintain, that the coincidences of the Elite 11 cards with the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'l card (approx. the same pop report data; and, the Georgia connection) are just
too great to ignore.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:28 AM
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Ted,

I waited to reply again hoping that someone like Scot who's opinion
you do respect would post. There are still many mystery's surrounding
the printing and sheets but with what we do know I think it's obvious that Joe Doyle was not on the same sheet as the "elite eleven"

You even have him on one of your 350/460 sheets in post #4 of your
Reference/Reflections thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816
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  #26  
Old 01-04-2018, 10:44 AM
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Anyone??


The repair done on the Doyle from all indications was simply stoning off the unwanted "Natl". I think the cards showing remnants of the N are solid evidence of that being done.

Is there a premium on these cards? I have a Doyle with a pretty neat portion of the NY Nat'l. Actually just a piece of the first N. But really neat....
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bpm0014 View Post
Anyone??


The repair done on the Doyle from all indications was simply stoning off the unwanted "Natl". I think the cards showing remnants of the N are solid evidence of that being done.

Is there a premium on these cards? I have a Doyle with a pretty neat portion of the NY Nat'l. Actually just a piece of the first N. But really neat....
Brendan, show us a scan. It sounds really interesting. I don't have one, and I would like to find one, but I don't know if they would bring that much of a premium.
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hey Steve

My records indicate 16 cards of Joe Doyle with printer's mark from a survey of 204 samples.....resulting in 7.9 %.



.............................................^.... .................................................. .........................^ Printer's Mark




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Hi Brendan

Depicted here is my "poor man's" Joe Doyle error card. All 16 of these Doyle's that I have seen with this Printer's Mark look exactly like this one.
So, I'm curious if your card is similar to this one, or does your card show more of the lower left of the "N" ?

Anyhow, that tiny remnant mark is approx. 1/70th of the Nat'L lettering. So, given a typical value of 70,000 for a real Joe Doyle error card, then
pro-rating this Mark's influence on this Joe Doyle card results in a value of approx. 1000


TED Z

T206 Reference
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  #29  
Old 01-04-2018, 12:14 PM
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Thanks fellas! I'll send a scan as soon as I get home. It's definitely noticeable...
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:28 PM
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Pic 1 (on right)
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:29 PM
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Pic 2
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:30 PM
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Pic 3
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:32 PM
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Ted, it appears that my “poor man’s Doyle” is identical to yours.
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:35 PM
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Brendan, it is an interesting little variation.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:18 AM
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Thanks Sean! I did purchase it as a variation, and yes it definitely is neat. Not too many of these around. It's as close as I'll ever get to the NY NAT'L one. Also, it's much more noticeable in person than these blurry pictures indicate...
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bpm0014 View Post
Ted, it appears that my “poor man’s Doyle” is identical to yours.

Hi Brendan

Your "poor man's" Joe Doyle error card exactly matches mine. Thanks for posting it. Your card makes it 17 of a total of 205 samples of this Doyle with the "printer's mark".
That translates to 8 % of the Joe Doyle cards with this mark that have been noted in my 10+ years survey.

Brendan....please tell me which T-brand is on the back of your card ?

Thanks




.............................................^.... .................................................. .........................^ Printer's Mark




TED Z

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Old 01-05-2018, 10:44 AM
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Here is my poor man's Poor Man's Doyle (Piedmont 350).
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Old 01-05-2018, 05:12 PM
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There are a few different Doyle variations that stem from the removal
of the NAT'L.

The one that has been posted in this thread that shows a small piece
of the N that didn't get removed.


then there are several examples of this variation that has the upper right
of the Y and the period after the Y missing


http://sterlingsportsauctions.com/Lo...ntoryid=42288#


and this variation that has the bottom part of the Y missing.
This one is also found on a Sovereign 350 back with an
additional matching print flaw.
Doyle missing bottom of Y.jpg
Doyle missing bottom of y Sov.jpg
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