Incredible eBay find that never materialized (newly discovered info on 6/26!!!)

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sterlingfox

I've already reported both parties to eBay, but I don't think it would be worth it for me to try and sue him for the difference between what I paid and what he sold it for.

He is also not responding to any of my messages, so I don't think a threat of a lawsuit will make any bit of difference to him.

My only hope from all of this is that both maxcollector69 and showpiecessports both get exposed for what they did.

They did but there are only a couple people that will care. For the rest as soon as one of the sellers list something on their want list they will bid on it. It has been proven so many times on this forum that stuff trumps everything I have pretty much stopped caring if others get ripped off.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by sterlingfox

I've already reported both parties to eBay, but I don't think it would be worth it for me to try and sue him for the difference between what I paid and what he sold it for.

He is also not responding to any of my messages, so I don't think a threat of a lawsuit will make any bit of difference to him.

My only hope from all of this is that both maxcollector69 and showpiecessports both get exposed for what they did.

You never know, happen to have a friend that is an attorney who would be willing to write a letter to the original seller? You've got this seller's address, send it certified and see what comes of it. He may still ignore you and you probably won't do anything going forward but, for a small expense for postage and a favor from an attorney you know, you can maybe get the satisfaction of giving him a few sleepless nights, or even the comforting thought that some of that money he screwed you out of went to an attorney he had to go see to check out the letter you sent him. You never know! Good luck, and I do feel for you that got screwed. Shouldn't have happened.

And if you don't have an attorney friend you can ask, there's enough attorneys on Net54. Maybe one of them would be willing to do this if for no other reason than to maybe give this guy enough of a scare so he never pulls that kind of stunt again on anyone else.

[sterlingfox]

I don't have his physical address, but I do have his (maxcollector69) full name and email address.

I'd happily provide this to anyone who is interested.

Originally Posted by BobC

You never know, happen to have a friend that is an attorney who would be willing to write a letter to the original seller? You've got this seller's address, send it certified and see what comes of it. He may still ignore you and you probably won't do anything going forward but, for a small expense for postage and a favor from an attorney you know, you can maybe get the satisfaction of giving him a few sleepless nights, or even the comforting thought that some of that money he screwed you out of went to an attorney he had to go see to check out the letter you sent him. You never know! Good luck, and I do feel for you that got screwed. Shouldn't have happened.

And if you don't have an attorney friend you can ask, there's enough attorneys on Net54. Maybe one of them would be willing to do this if for no other reason than to maybe give this guy enough of a scare so he never pulls that kind of stunt again on anyone else.

[sterlingfox]

A fellow Net54 user has informed me that showpiecessports (Joe Dwek) is currently registered as one of the dealers at the upcoming National.

Booths 1413 and 1512, according to the dealer list.

I'd greatly appreciate it if anyone visiting his table(s) would let him know what they think of his business practices.

[commishbob]

...

[sterlingfox]

Fingers crossed!

[jfkheat]

I realize that you didn't get the card that you "bought" off of eBay but are you 100% sure the new seller of the card did anything that is against eBay rules. The two sellers aren't that far apart. It is possible that after the listing where you hit the BIN the original seller sold it at a card show or through a private deal that had nothing to do with eBay. It has been over 6 weeks since you hit the BIN. The first seller is an ass for not going through with the deal between you two. The current seller may be innocent of any wrong doings. Just an observation.
James

[sterlingfox]

The current seller is hiding behind a story that a "client" of his traded the card to him for an autograph, but he won't reveal any info about his so-called "client".

Even if he's not the one who bought the card off of maxcollector69, he's covering for his client who did.

Not innocent in either scenario.

Originally Posted by jfkheat

I realize that you didn't get the card that you "bought" off of eBay but are you 100% sure the new seller of the card did anything that is against eBay rules. The two sellers aren't that far apart. It is possible that after the listing where you hit the BIN the original seller sold it at a card show or through a private deal that had nothing to do with eBay. It has been over 6 weeks since you hit the BIN. The first seller is an ass for not going through with the deal between you two. The current seller may be innocent of any wrong doings. Just an observation.
James

[BobC]

Originally Posted by sterlingfox

I don't have his physical address, but I do have his (maxcollector69) full name and email address.

I'd happily provide this to anyone who is interested.

Ebay should have his full name and address. Just contact them again and ask for it, and tell them exactly why. If they refuse, I'd think that then makes them complicit with the seller. Ask them to confirm then that this deal you thought was completed using their site was a legal, binding contract, and if so, how can they not assist you in getting in touch with the seller since he no longer will respond to your emails.

Or, see if if you can find someone who bought something from this guy and would have his address from when they mailed the item to them.

[bigfanNY]

Well first time I stepped into a thread like this. So first I am not a perfect hobby member in fact this week I forgot about a package and mailed an item 5 days after I said I would.
BUT I delt with showpiece sports last year and Joe is a GOOD GUY.
I am sorry An EBAY seller screwed you and I would bet Joe is sorry he screwed you but he did nothing wrong here. 100% seller fault. Really what would you want Joe to do sell you the card for less than he paid for it?
You cannot be sure he did anything wrong And yet you say you are almost 100% certin he did. That is not cool
Is it to much to ask you give him a break? For you and me this is a hobby but for someone who pays for multiple tables at national and has 6k listings this might be an important business and to jump up and down and say he is unethical and ask folks to "stop by his table and tell him so" .
I would not appreciate anyone stopping by my workplace disrupting my business would you?
You know who did you wrong for $15 you can sue him in a New Jersey small claims court. If you prevailed you might win some damages. But the scorched earth policy of anyone connected to this must pay and pay. Is neither fair nor just.
My real world experiance with Joe tells me that the opinion in your head is wrong about him.
Jonathan Sterling

[timn1]

H*ll of an attitude...

Originally Posted by bnorth

They did but there are only a couple people that will care. For the rest as soon as one of the sellers list something on their want list they will bid on it. It has been proven so many times on this forum that stuff trumps everything I have pretty much stopped caring if others get ripped off.

[sterlingfox]

Simply going by facts, Joe is currently in possession of the card and refuses to provide any info that could prove his innocence in this.

Based on what, exactly, should I be cutting him a break?

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Well first time I stepped into a thread like this. So first I am not a perfect hobby member in fact this week I forgot about a package and mailed an item 5 days after I said I would.
BUT I delt with showpiece sports last year and Joe is a GOOD GUY.
I am sorry An EBAY seller screwed you and I would bet Joe is sorry he screwed you but he did nothing wrong here. 100% seller fault. Really what would you want Joe to do sell you the card for less than he paid for it?
You cannot be sure he did anything wrong And yet you say you are almost 100% certin he did. That is not cool
Is it to much to ask you give him a break? For you and me this is a hobby but for someone who pays for multiple tables at national and has 6k listings this might be an important business and to jump up and down and say he is unethical and ask folks to "stop by his table and tell him so" .
I would not appreciate anyone stopping by my workplace disrupting my business would you?
You know who did you wrong for $15 you can sue him in a New Jersey small claims court. If you prevailed you might win some damages. But the scorched earth policy of anyone connected to this must pay and pay. Is neither fair nor just.
My real world experiance with Joe tells me that the opinion in your head is wrong about him.
Jonathan Sterling

[bigfanNY]

Well first off he never promised to sell you the card for $1200.00. Second he told you he took card in on trade.Third he is right not giving you name of collector who traded it. IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. What make you think anyone owes it to you to prove their innocence. I thought basic justice meant Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
You know who did you wrong do the work to fix it or get over it. Trashing someone who you feel is withholding evidence from you is wrong. JUST WRONG. Put yourself in Joe's shoes would you act differantly? I would not,who I trade or sell cards to and for how much is none of yours or anybody's business. Unless card has been reported stolen and this card has not.

[asoriano]

Originally Posted by jfkheat

I realize that you didn't get the card that you "bought" off of eBay but are you 100% sure the new seller of the card did anything that is against eBay rules. The two sellers aren't that far apart. It is possible that after the listing where you hit the BIN the original seller sold it at a card show or through a private deal that had nothing to do with eBay. It has been over 6 weeks since you hit the BIN. The first seller is an ass for not going through with the deal between you two. The current seller may be innocent of any wrong doings. Just an observation.
James

this ^

[sterlingfox]

So all the evidence so far points to Joe as the buyer of the card, and I should just blindly trust his word that he's innocent?

The original seller is NOT the only person who wronged me here.

If Joe's story has any merit at all, he needs to provide info on who traded him the card. IT IS MY BUSINESS if he's the only person who can provide that info.

If I were in Joe's shoes, not only would I do everything I could to help out, including providing info on the client, I'd also never do business again with that client. Joe obviously values his client over his ethics. And that's going on a HUGE assumption that his story is even true.

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Well first off he never promised to sell you the card for $1200.00. Second he told you he took card in on trade.Third he is right not giving you name of collector who traded it. IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. What make you think anyone owes it to you to prove their innocence. I thought basic justice meant Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
You know who did you wrong do the work to fix it or get over it. Trashing someone who you feel is withholding evidence from you is wrong. JUST WRONG. Put yourself in Joe's shoes would you act differantly? I would not,who I trade or sell cards to and for how much is none of yours or anybody's business. Unless card has been reported stolen and this card has not.

[BLongley]

Wait a second....have you read the post? The OP bought the card, paid for it, and then received shipping confirmation. Then about 15 minutes later received an email from the seller maxcollector69 thaT THE CARD AND CASE WAS DAMAGED BY HIS KIDS AND HE WAS CANCELING THE DEAL.... now here we are a few weeks later and suddenly our seller Joe, has THE EXACT CARD IN THE EXACT CASE WITH ZERO DAMAGE for sale on eBay.... he doesn't have to say how he acquired it but it's maxcollector69s card in the same case, ... I sent him a question asking him about the claimed damage to the card and case from the original seller and he did not respond at all.... all of his actions seem to be ones of someone with a guilty conscience (I would bet anyone that Joe told maxcollector69 he sold too cheap and he would pay him more, then did so off eBay, but was so stupid he listed it on eBay for all of us to see).... you say he's a good guy, so go ahead buy from him.... but I will never have interest in anything he sells.... he certainly can come on here and tell his side of the story, and I told him in my note to him about this Net54 post, but he is staying quiet...

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Well first off he never promised to sell you the card for $1200.00. Second he told you he took card in on trade.Third he is right not giving you name of collector who traded it. IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. What make you think anyone owes it to you to prove their innocence. I thought basic justice meant Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
You know who did you wrong do the work to fix it or get over it. Trashing someone who you feel is withholding evidence from you is wrong. JUST WRONG. Put yourself in Joe's shoes would you act differantly? I would not,who I trade or sell cards to and for how much is none of yours or anybody's business. Unless card has been reported stolen and this card has not.

[jfkheat]

I wouldn't tell anyone where I got the card from either for privacy reasons. Last year I sold a card to a member here. When he received the package the bubble mailer had been sliced open and the card was gone. A couple months ago the card showed as part of a set up at an auction house that lists their auctions here. I called the auction house asking for the same type of information that you are asking for. I was told that for privacy reasons they couldn't give me any info.
James

[Republicaninmass]

You can bet if any of my stolen cards show up, I'll try my damndest to find where they came from. Not that I'll have any luck

[timn1]

Sure, Maybe Joe is totally innocent, and piglets could also fly out of my behind. He didn’t even bother to sell it in a different venue. Pretty shameless if you ask me.

Originally Posted by BLongley

Wait a second....have you read the post? The OP bought the card, paid for it, and then received shipping confirmation. Then about 15 minutes later received an email from the seller maxcollector69 thaT THE CARD AND CASE WAS DAMAGED BY HIS KIDS AND HE WAS CANCELING THE DEAL.... now here we are a few weeks later and suddenly our seller Joe, has THE EXACT CARD IN THE EXACT CASE WITH ZERO DAMAGE for sale on eBay.... he doesn't have to say how he acquired it but it's maxcollector69s card in the same case, ... I sent him a question asking him about the claimed damage to the card and case from the original seller and he did not respond at all.... all of his actions seem to be ones of someone with a guilty conscience (I would bet anyone that Joe told maxcollector69 he sold too cheap and he would pay him more, then did so off eBay, but was so stupid he listed it on eBay for all of us to see).... you say he's a good guy, so go ahead buy from him.... but I will never have interest in anything he sells.... he certainly can come on here and tell his side of the story, and I told him in my note to him about this Net54 post, but he is staying quiet...

[timn1]

Sure he did, that’s what posting something on eBay is, an implied promise to sell something for a certain price (either the BIN price or the auction hammer price).
In this case the seller set the price himself and then reneged on the promise. Pretty simple stuff, I would say. Hard to spin it away.

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Well first off he never promised to sell you the card for $1200.00..

[bigfanNY]

Brian You and the OP do not have have not a single shread of evidence that Joe bought the card from maxcollector69. Joe responded to the OP and answered his question on how he acquired the card. The card was not stolen so it would be wrong for him to tell you or anyone the name of who traded him the card. Again it is none of your business.
Don't you get that it is wrong to say things like I would bet anyone he is "guilty" and "stop by his booth at the national" without any proof that he did anything unethical. Who appointed you guys judge jury and executioner?
I personally would not contact an Ebay seller and offer him more for an item after it already sold. But in this case the only person who acted in a way that harmed the OP is MAXCOLLECTOR69. He made the decision to not ship the card and to lie about why. He made the decision to sell the card to someone else. Joe took the card in on trade NOTHING UNETHICAL OR ILLEGAL about that. If it was then I have been a criminal since I was 8 years old and started trading baseball cards.

As for Tim yes a promise is a promise and stupid is as stupid does. Next time please read the post and if you don't understand it ..then best not to respond to it.

I would suggest that you 3 owe an apology to Joe but I know self righteous guys like you rarely have the guts to admit you were wrong. And that a complete lack of evidence only makes the conspiracy more real. But standing up for the wrongly accused (Those accused despite any evidence to indicate they did anything wrong) is always the right thing to do. If Joe did anything at all wrong I think it will come out but you don't convict people and wait for the evidence to show up.
Jonathan Sterling

[timn1]

Yes, I did misread your post, although why you bothered to say that Joe did not promise to sell the OP the card for $1200 is a mystery since no one ever claimed he did. But The original eBay seller did make that promise, and there is good reason to suspect that Joe interfered with that transaction. If he didn’t, then he can come on this board and explain his side of things. That would go much further in his defense than your flailing about is doing.

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Brian You and the OP do not have have not a single shread of evidence that Joe bought the card from maxcollector69. Joe responded to the OP and answered his question on how he acquired the card. The card was not stolen so it would be wrong for him to tell you or anyone the name of who traded him the card. Again it is none of your business.
Don't you get that it is wrong to say things like I would bet anyone he is "guilty" and "stop by his booth at the national" without any proof that he did anything unethical. Who appointed you guys judge jury and executioner?
I personally would not contact an Ebay seller and offer him more for an item after it already sold. But in this case the only person who acted in a way that harmed the OP is MAXCOLLECTOR69. He made the decision to not ship the card and to lie about why. He made the decision to sell the card to someone else. Joe took the card in on trade NOTHING UNETHICAL OR ILLEGAL about that. If it was then I have been a criminal since I was 8 years old and started trading baseball cards.

As for Tim yes a promise is a promise and stupid is as stupid does. Next time please read the post and if you don't understand it ..then best not to respond to it.

I would suggest that you 3 owe an apology to Joe but I know self righteous guys like you rarely have the guts to admit you were wrong. And that a complete lack of evidence only makes the conspiracy more real. But standing up for the wrongly accused (Those accused despite any evidence to indicate they did anything wrong) is always the right thing to do. If Joe did anything at all wrong I think it will come out but you don't convict people and wait for the evidence to show up.
Jonathan Sterling

[sterlingfox]

So what you're saying is that Joe, or whoever the original buyer of the card is who offered more to maxcollector69, did nothing wrong? You even said yourself that's something you wouldn't do! Are you flipping serious!?!?

And Joe being the only other known owner of the card is plenty enough evidence to suspect him of being the buyer.

Where's the proof that Joe took the card in on trade? That's right. There's none!

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Brian You and the OP do not have have not a single shread of evidence that Joe bought the card from maxcollector69. Joe responded to the OP and answered his question on how he acquired the card. The card was not stolen so it would be wrong for him to tell you or anyone the name of who traded him the card. Again it is none of your business.
Don't you get that it is wrong to say things like I would bet anyone he is "guilty" and "stop by his booth at the national" without any proof that he did anything unethical. Who appointed you guys judge jury and executioner?
I personally would not contact an Ebay seller and offer him more for an item after it already sold. But in this case the only person who acted in a way that harmed the OP is MAXCOLLECTOR69. He made the decision to not ship the card and to lie about why. He made the decision to sell the card to someone else. Joe took the card in on trade NOTHING UNETHICAL OR ILLEGAL about that. If it was then I have been a criminal since I was 8 years old and started trading baseball cards.

As for Tim yes a promise is a promise and stupid is as stupid does. Next time please read the post and if you don't understand it ..then best not to respond to it.

I would suggest that you 3 owe an apology to Joe but I know self righteous guys like you rarely have the guts to admit you were wrong. And that a complete lack of evidence only makes the conspiracy more real. But standing up for the wrongly accused (Those accused despite any evidence to indicate they did anything wrong) is always the right thing to do. If Joe did anything at all wrong I think it will come out but you don't convict people and wait for the evidence to show up.
Jonathan Sterling

[BLongley]

Without a doubt maxcollector69 is guilty for not following through on his transaction, and the reason he didn't we clearly know is a lie because the case isn't damaged. Now here we are and showpiecessports has the card in his inventory for sale.

Nothing unethical or illegal about trading for it, or unethical or illegal if he bought it, and nothing illegal if he interfered with Dmitrys transaction (although eBay would be less than thrilled for loosing transaction fees and having shenanigans taking place through their company's business, but we know it happens all the time).... if he did that though that would be unethical.

I have seen many a reputation destroyed over the internet. There are topics like this that come up all the time and when whoevers reputation or character is being questioned they come on to the board and tell their side of the story, and if they did nothing wrong then everyone moves on.

I am surprised Joe has been so quiet, after all anyone can google search his eBay name and this stuff now appears, if it was my name and integrity being questioned I would certainly come online and tell my side of the story.

I can appreciate you sticking up for your friend, but you don't know the facts...maxcollector69 does and Joe may certainly have info to share if he so chooses.

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Brian You and the OP do not have have not a single shread of evidence that Joe bought the card from maxcollector69. Joe responded to the OP and answered his question on how he acquired the card. The card was not stolen so it would be wrong for him to tell you or anyone the name of who traded him the card. Again it is none of your business.
Don't you get that it is wrong to say things like I would bet anyone he is "guilty" and "stop by his booth at the national" without any proof that he did anything unethical. Who appointed you guys judge jury and executioner?
I personally would not contact an Ebay seller and offer him more for an item after it already sold. But in this case the only person who acted in a way that harmed the OP is MAXCOLLECTOR69. He made the decision to not ship the card and to lie about why. He made the decision to sell the card to someone else. Joe took the card in on trade NOTHING UNETHICAL OR ILLEGAL about that. If it was then I have been a criminal since I was 8 years old and started trading baseball cards.

As for Tim yes a promise is a promise and stupid is as stupid does. Next time please read the post and if you don't understand it ..then best not to respond to it.

I would suggest that you 3 owe an apology to Joe but I know self righteous guys like you rarely have the guts to admit you were wrong. And that a complete lack of evidence only makes the conspiracy more real. But standing up for the wrongly accused (Those accused despite any evidence to indicate they did anything wrong) is always the right thing to do. If Joe did anything at all wrong I think it will come out but you don't convict people and wait for the evidence to show up.
Jonathan Sterling

[Republicaninmass]

Ebay clearly states that when you agree to purchase a card from a seller, it is a binding agreement. Are we to say that is unilateral, and the binding agreement doesnt bind the (original) seller in this case?

What about stolen property? The (second) seller wouldn't even be reimbursed, he'd have to go after who he purchased it from. The authorities would just take the card into evidence.

There are enough attorneys on the board that we can just write off (and laugh at) most of the other posters. Those which are simply conjecture and speculation what the law is, how it reads, or what can hold up in court.

[SMPEP]

Brian - it's even worse than you say. Joe doesn't even need to google himself to see his name in this thread. He's been directly TOLD by at least two Board members that this thread exists. And his only response has been to date has been "must be my lucky day." He is well informed that this thread exists - he obviously just doesn't care to respond. I'll let folks draw their own conclusions on what that means.

Cheers,
Patrick

[steve B]

Originally Posted by BLongley

Nothing unethical or illegal about trading for it, or unethical or illegal if he bought it, and nothing illegal if he interfered with Dmitrys transaction (although eBay would be less than thrilled for loosing transaction fees and having shenanigans taking place through their company's business, but we know it happens all the time).... if he did that though that would be unethical.

Nothing illegal if he interfered with it?

This is of course an amateur opinion as I'm not a lawyer, but....

Ebay states in a couple places in their user agreement that a sale is a contract between buyer and seller. They used to have language like that every time I listed stuff, but it's been a while so they might not have that reminder for sellers anymore.

And from Wikipedia

"Tortious interference, also known as intentional interference with contractual relations, in the common law of torts, occurs when one person intentionally damages someone else's contractual or business relationships with a third party causing economic harm.[1] For example, someone could use blackmail to induce a contractor into breaking a contract or they could obstruct someone's ability to honor a contract with a client by deliberately refusing to deliver necessary goods.[2]

So I'd say interfering with a completed sale on Ebay is illegal.
That's not to say that it might be hard to prove, or more expensive to sue over than the item.

[BLongley]

Ok, maybe it is illegal, I don't know either, I was just responding to the other post...and stating that trading for cards in general is not illegal or unethical, which is what that poster was saying...that Joe or anyone can trade for things, what's wrong with that"....and I was then saying nothing, but if Joe had interfered with the transaction that it was at a minimum unethical. I am on the OPs side on this and question the whole thing. I was the one that found the card suddenly for sale again and notified Dmitry about its reappearance....

Originally Posted by steve B

Nothing illegal if he interfered with it?

This is of course an amateur opinion as I'm not a lawyer, but....

Ebay states in a couple places in their user agreement that a sale is a contract between buyer and seller. They used to have language like that every time I listed stuff, but it's been a while so they might not have that reminder for sellers anymore.

And from Wikipedia

"Tortious interference, also known as intentional interference with contractual relations, in the common law of torts, occurs when one person intentionally damages someone else's contractual or business relationships with a third party causing economic harm.[1] For example, someone could use blackmail to induce a contractor into breaking a contract or they could obstruct someone's ability to honor a contract with a client by deliberately refusing to deliver necessary goods.[2]

So I'd say interfering with a completed sale on Ebay is illegal.
That's not to say that it might be hard to prove, or more expensive to sue over than the item.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Brian You and the OP do not have have not a single shread of evidence that Joe bought the card from maxcollector69. Joe responded to the OP and answered his question on how he acquired the card. The card was not stolen so it would be wrong for him to tell you or anyone the name of who traded him the card.

So if the card was 'stolen' then it would be ok for the new seller to give the info of who traded him the card. So now there are reasons that info should be disclosed.

Well the poster is basically claiming fraud because he was told the card/case was damaged which was the reason for the non sale and he is alleging there is nothing wrong with the card. So whether the card was 'stolen' 'fraud' some other bad deed, it would appear you really cant just say its none of his business to see how the new seller got the card...others can disagree but i dont think its so simple to say its none of his business

[steve B]

Originally Posted by BLongley

Ok, maybe it is illegal, I don't know either, I was just responding to the other post...and stating that trading for cards in general is not illegal or unethical, which is what that poster was saying...that Joe or anyone can trade for things, what's wrong with that"....and I was then saying nothing, but if Joe had interfered with the transaction that it was at a minimum unethical. I am on the OPs side on this and question the whole thing. I was the one that found the card suddenly for sale again and notified Dmitry about its reappearance....

Ok.

That wasn't meant as ripping you, just adding that yes, interfering is sometimes illegal.

[rdixon1208]

Originally Posted by sterlingfox

So what you're saying is that Joe, or whoever the original buyer of the card is who offered more to maxcollector69, did nothing wrong? You even said yourself that's something you wouldn't do! Are you flipping serious!?!?

And Joe being the only other known owner of the card is plenty enough evidence to suspect him of being the buyer.

Where's the proof that Joe took the card in on trade? That's right. There's none!

This is where I think you're wrong. I understanding you suspecting him of being the buyer, but you're actually accusing him of it and demanding that he provide proof when you don't actually have any hard data to support your claim. That card could have changed hands multiple times between maxcollector69 and the guy who has it for sale now.

Robert Dixon

[BLongley]

Sure it could have, but joe doesn't seem to want to chime in, hence the suspection.... we have seen maxcollector69 have it, cancel the sale due to his kids destroying the card, and a few weeks later now have seen it reappear in joes inventory after he traded an expensive autograph for it...and according to Dmitry he wouldn't even say who it was an autograph of (not who the trade was with)... just who the auto was...

And what other hard data can he get? It is his business because he had a binding contract of purchase with maxcollector69 and was canceled with a lie. The fact that Joe can clearly see it was canceled with a lie, he may want to help Dmitry understand what he knows of the transaction, but has chosen not to, which causes many suspicions....

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

This is where I think you're wrong. I understanding you suspecting him of being the buyer, but you're actually accusing him of it and demanding that he provide proof when you don't actually have any hard data to support your claim. That card could have changed hands multiple times between maxcollector69 and the guy who has it for sale now.

Robert Dixon

[Marchillo]

I feel for the OP 100%. My great deals have been few and far between and thinking of not receiving one is devastating.

I think everyone agrees - the original seller with the false story is scum. I would never do business with them (if i actually remember them when coming across an item).

As for Joe - Not sure there is a right or wrong answer here but I think its dangerous to accuse someone as is being done here. I don't think Joe owes it to anyone to tell how he acquired the card, yet he told the OP that it was acquired by trade. I agree with Joe not giving up the name of the person he traded with. I honestly don't think he owes anyone anything at this point assuming this is the truth and the trade he mentions wasn't by him initiating a call on an item that already sold.

If Joe comes on here to defend himself and says "Like I told the OP, I acquired this card in a trade" - will that satisfy everyone?

What if Joe comes on here and says "Like I told the OP, I acquired this card in a trade, but will not reveal who I traded with" - will that satisfy everyone?

What if Joe comes on here and says "Like I told the OP, I acquired this card in a trade, I will not reveal who i traded with but I can tell you its not from the seller of the original listing" - will that satisfy everyone?

I have no relationship with Joe and for all I know Joe could have done some shenanigans in this whole ordeal. But assuming he didn't I still don't think he owes it to anyone to prove his innocence.

Again I feel for the OP - I don't think he's overreacting and if I were in his shoes i might say the same things even though I think they are dangerous things to say. Maybe some more information will come to light. It is probably in Joe's best interest to come on here but if he offers the same response he offered to the OP I am not sure where it will get him.

[joed25]

This is Andrew Dwek. Joe Dwek is my brother and partner. Joe and I buy, sell and trade sports memorabilia and autographs.The accusation that we stole this card from Dmitry by offering the ebay seller more is simply false. We traded for the card having no knowledge of any sales or transactions on it. A client was interested in a high end item of our’s and asked if we would consider trading it to him for multiple items. After going back and forth on potential trade pieces over a few days we agreed on a package of multiple items coming our way in exchange for the one high end item in our store. One of the items we received was this card.

We rarely deal in vintage cards unless they're autographed. In all of our years of doing this, we have never once bought a vintage graded card unless it was included in a package that consisted mainly of autographs and memorabilia. We don't follow card auctions and sales and never have bid on card auctions or listings of any kind. We certainly would never make an offer to a seller after an ebay sale had completed. We wouldn't do so even if the item was right is in our wheelhouse and we’d be able to make a quick profit on it. We certainly wouldn't do it on a vintage card for which we have no real feel for and have no clients/buyers for. While we've been the victim of such practices countless times we would never engage in such business practices. We love what we do, feel blessed to be able to dedicate so much time to the hobby and believe there's enough good and legitimate business out there.

To prove I'm saying the truth I'm willing to show our conversations and communications with this trade client to a net54 board member. I would do so in person, either now in New Jersey or at the national. I will show the proof of the trade to a neutral person, not someone who was affected by the cancelled ebay sale or feels they incurred a loss. The client’s identity will remain anonymous.

After we listed the card for sale in our ebay store, Dmitry messaged us about the cancelled ebay sale. We immediately offered to talk to him on the phone to explain what had happened. Attached are the ebay messages:

[joed25]

I see the photos are not clear so here is the ebay conversation transcribed:

OP: Did you purchase this from maxcollector69?

Me: No.

OP: Are you selling it as a consignment for someone else then? I'm asking because I purchased
and paid for this card from eBay user maxcollector69 about a month ago. The order was then
cancelled and refunded before it shipped. Whoever bought it stole it from me by offering the
seller more, and I need to know who did that to me. If not you, then I need to know who. If you
can't provide that info then I'll assume it was you.

Me: No I am not.

OP: Then it was you who stole this card from me. Thanks for clearing that up.
I will be making sure your eBay business suffers as much as possible.
It will be the biggest mistake you've ever made in your life by the time I'm finished with you.
maxcollector69 is already feeling the effects of the part that he played in this.
Expect to also hear from MANY others who have already heard my story, and know exactly
what you did.

Me: This is the fourth email I got from someone saying he bought this card. I know almost
nothing about cards. I am an autograph dealer. I only get cards in trades. Someone traded
me this card for an expensive autograph. To think that I would follow an eBay sale of this
card and message the seller after to sell it to me is a little crazy as I don’t deal in cards
and I wouldn’t know what a dietshe postcard is if it hit me in the head. Hope this clears
things up.

OP: Again, unless I get specific details on who you got this card from, I will assume it was you who
stole it from me.
Others are messaging you on MY behalf.
Check eBay sales within the last 90 days and you'll see this card sold for $1200 as a BUY IT
NOW. I was the buyer.
The seller cancelled on me after I paid. Someone offered maxcollector69 more to cause the
cancellation.
Unless you tell me who you got this card from, I'll have to assume it was YOU!
And selling it for $6K tells me you know A LOT about this card.
DO NOT attempt to lie to me. IT WILL NOT WORK!

Me: I told you exactly what happened with this card. Obviously I can research a cards value.
But I am not a Card dealer and it is ludicrous to think that I would follow an eBay Auction
and message him after on an obscure card that I don’t deal in. I would never do such a
thing. Also I don’t appreciate being threatened.

OP: I'm asking you one last time, who did you get this card from? I won't ask again...

And I don't appreciate being lied to and stolen from. Even if it wasn't you, if you don't tell me
who you got this card from, then you're covering for the perp, which makes you just as
responsible! And I still think it was you!

Me: I am available to speak after 11 am est. Feel free to
call.

OP: I work during the day and come home to 3 young children, so I don't have the time to call
anyone.
I'm just asking for proof that you didn't get the card from maxcollector69. That should be easy
enough to provide.
Right now all evidence points to you.

Me: After work is fine. I have 4 little kids as well. Thanks

OP: Who should I ask for when calling?
I'm still going to need real proof.
Telling me something like you made a trade with a stranger at a show won't cut it for me.

Me: Joe.
It was not at a show. It was from someone who buys from me

OP: That won't help either of us, unfortunately, and eliminates the need for a phone call. I would hope
that you don't engage in large transactions like that without first getting some personal info from your
trading partner, but it doesn't seem like you did that. It's a situation like this that you could have
avoided. That is, if any of what you're saying is true. As far as I can see, you can't prove anything,
but I can prove you're in possession of the Cobb. That's all I'll need.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I'll need a full name, email address, and if you have it,
eBay user ID and home address of your trading partner.

Me: Of course I have the persons name but I’m not going to give the name of one of my
clients. Call me. You will see I’m honest and I would never do such a horrible thing. I
definitely feel your pain. All the best, Joe

OP: Hi Joe, I really want to believe you, but this isn't looking good for you without any proof or
willingness to cooperate.
I'm sure you're already getting messages from people who will vow to never do business with
you again - you'll be getting much more of this over the coming days, weeks and months. I
have a lot of influence on the card collecting community, and have no issues reaching out to
the memorabilia side as well.
I will need that name and email address to let you off the hook.
If you have any sympathy at all about this situation, you'll do the right thing and make sure that
the right person is exposed for what they did.

Me: Let’s talk when you are
free.

OP: I appreciate your willingness to reach out and speak to me, but nothing short of your client's
information will help either of us.
Covering for your client makes you just as guilty, unfortunately.

Me: With all due respect I think if you were in my shoes you would not want to give a clients
information. I really think it will be a benefit to talk. Please call. Thanks. Joe

OP: I would happily provide their information if I was given proof that they were potentially
engaging in such devious behavior. I'd also never do business with them again, but it's
obvious that you value their business more than your own ethics.
It's possible there was another exchange before it reached your client, but that will need to be
researched.
As it stands, the ball is in your court, and you're still covering for your client. That's all I need to
know.

Me: Again I am willing to talk. I don’t want to fight with you. I would never do anything like
some people are suggesting. I cannot give a clients name. If you change your mind and
are willing to talk I am always available. I wish you the best. Joe

OP: You've taken your stance and I've taken mine. I just hope you can accept the consequences of
your actions.

[joed25]

Some more photos.

[joed25]

Here are some more photos

[BLongley]

Andrew, Thank you for coming on here and explaining the details. This certainly helps me believe your innocence.

[joed25]

Patrick,
I was the one who replied to you "must be my lucky day".
I was fed up with all the messages on this card and wrote back quickly to you out of frustration. Please accept my apologies. - Andrew

[Marchillo]

To me, I don't know how much more Joe and Andrew have to say to defend themselves. This is more than I would have expected. I know there will be some sort of criticism. If I were Joe and Andrew then I would share the information they offered with Leon. No one better in my opinion.

As for the OP - I think these messages come off really aggressive and harsh. Not the approach I would have taken. Also not sure why a phone call wasn't done after the repeated offer. I do not blame Joe and Andrew for not giving away that information. For all we know the trade partner could have been the second person to touch the card after the listing was pulled and could have been innocent in all of this too. Then Joe and Andrew lose a major contributor to their business and this person could go around blasting them as well hurting other frequent clients. Just a no win situation....

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I hate to take sides when I'm not involved and this is more a general comment.

You cannot make yourself whole by damaging someone else.

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I hate to take sides when I'm not involved and this is more a general comment.

You cannot make yourself whole by damaging someone else.

Mic drop

[mechanicalman]

I have been in the OPs shoes before. The almost exact situation happened to me. IT SUCKS. I genuinely feel bad for the OP - as bad as you can possibly feel about a guy who didn't get a Dietsche Cobb for a fraction than market value.

But at this point, you've got to give this up and move on. You will not be getting that card for $1200. You have no recourse. You were screwed by the seller, and he no longer owns it.

It seems like your only goal at this point is to besmirch others' reputations based on little to no evidence. You've actually done it in two threads (one of which you've walked back.) Will that make you feel better? Maybe. But how is wielding your hobby influence to hurt someone's business (your words) a good use of time and energy? You are too busy to take a phone call, but you find the time to run a smear campaign based on assumptions?

Dude, move on. I'm sorry this happened to you, but your reaction at this point is not a good look.

And also, how have we gotten this far without knowing your FULL NAME?

[1952boyntoncollector]

I do agree that the original poster is pretty aggressive. I think it was way to early to talk about consequences and making business difficult etc.

Also for someone that hated that fake excuse about the card being damaged as the reason it wasn't shipped...to say


OP: I work during the day and come home to 3 young children, so I don't have the time to call
anyone.


C'mon, all of this effort on and on...is taking many minutes/hours...to just take a minute or two on the phone and saying he doesnt have time really looks bad to me. The new seller guy keeps asking him to call him and drawing a line in the sand by the OP ( no identity no call) is a game.

However, this isn't medical records or an undercover operation......giving an email or an ebay ID in a legit case of a stolen card or other type of crooked behavior (if can show proof of the email saying the card was damaged) isnt the end of the world. The new seller could of at least asked the person he did the trade with about this information and see what the person says and share that with the OP....

A little give on both sides would of made sense.

[joed25]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

To me, I don't know how much more Joe and Andrew have to say to defend themselves. This is more than I would have expected. I know there will be some sort of criticism. If I were Joe and Andrew then I would share the information they offered with Leon. No one better in my opinion.

As for the OP - I think these messages come off really aggressive and harsh. Not the approach I would have taken. Also not sure why a phone call wasn't done after the repeated offer. I do not blame Joe and Andrew for not giving away that information. For all we know the trade partner could have been the second person to touch the card after the listing was pulled and could have been innocent in all of this too. Then Joe and Andrew lose a major contributor to their business and this person could go around blasting them as well hurting other frequent clients. Just a no win situation....

Thank you for your kind words.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

And also, how have we gotten this far without knowing your FULL NAME?

This.

[sterlingfox]

Here's the proof that maxcollector69 lied to me.

Was I too aggressive with my approach to Joe? Yes, absolutely. But I'm also outraged at this whole situation, and really just wanted some answers. I didn't feel like a phone call would have solved or proved anything, as Joe made it clear that he wasn't going to reveal any info about the trading partner. And just like Andrew's insensitive initial response to Patrick, my correspondence with Joe was fueled by anger and frustration. All I had to go on at that point was that the card was in Joe's inventory and relisted on eBay at a 500% markup over what I had paid.

I don't expect to ever get this card for $1200. I actually moved on from that long ago, but when the card showed back up on eBay a few days ago, it got me angry all over again.

Once whoever Joe decides to relay the information to about the trading partner reaches out to me and confirms that it's legit, I'll happily apologize to Joe.

I'd much prefer getting the trading partner's contact info so I can at least try to find out who actually bought the card from maxcollector69, but that looks like it won't happen at this point.

My FULL NAME is Dmitry Drubitsky

[rhettyeakley]

Let. It. Go.

We have all this type of stuff happen to us. I bought a card off eBay from a seller, paid, waited and a few days later I got a refund. No message from the seller ever and a week later someone on the forum was showing their “new card” thay had found & proceeds to show the card I had already paid for. S*** happens. That guy isn’t my favorite Net54er but eventually I forgave the guy and have even dealt with them.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by sterlingfox

Here's the proof that maxcollector69 lied to me.

Was I too aggressive with my approach to Joe? Yes, absolutely. But I'm also outraged at this whole situation, and really just wanted some answers. I didn't feel like a phone call would have solved or proved anything, as Joe made it clear that he wasn't going to reveal any info about the trading partner. And just like Andrew's insensitive initial response to Patrick, my correspondence with Joe was fueled by anger and frustration. All I had to go on at that point was that the card was in Joe's inventory and relisted on eBay at a 500% markup over what I had paid.

I don't expect to ever get this card for $1200. I actually moved on from that long ago, but when the card showed back up on eBay a few days ago, it got me angry all over again.

Once whoever Joe decides to relay the information to about the trading partner reaches out to me and confirms that it's legit, I'll happily apologize to Joe.

I'd much prefer getting the trading partner's contact info so I can at least try to find out who actually bought the card from maxcollector69, but that looks like it won't happen at this point.

My FULL NAME is Dmitry Drubitsky

i would of said, ill still buy the card for the same price...please show me the card..no reason to refund

[Bpm0014]

^^^^^^^ this