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  #1  
Old 02-16-2010, 08:51 AM
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Phil Garry
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Default 1921 Koester's Bread Cards on E-Bay

All of the auctions ended last night but did any collectors see the large quantity of 1921 Koester's Bread cards listed by one seller on e-bay? The seller stated that these blank-backed cards were hand cut from a Koester's Bread sheet. I am not very familiar with this issue but that description did not really sound right to me. When I asked politely how he was able to accumulate so many rare cards from one issue, the seller replied that he's done card shows since the 1970's and that I should ask Jim Beckett & Bill Mastro. How's that for an answer? Anyway, here's a link to one of the auctions:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1921-Koesters-Br...item4a9e73d4c2

What do you think?
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  #2  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:07 AM
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Default John R

John Rumierz is a collector from way, way back. He has the #1 table (always) at the National. Been there since day one. For some reason he and I get along very well, otherwise he is very low key. I must have spent 3 hours or more just speaking with him, one on one, at the last National. At each National I spend quite a bit of time speaking with him, having breakfast etc.... I have known him for about 10 yrs and he is one of the most knowledgable people in our hobby. When he says something, believe it. Also, if you want to really know where some skeletons are buried in the hobby, John is the one that knows. I will not say what we spoke about but if I did this board, and many in the hobby, would be ducking for cover. Trust me, much of what I see people talking about concerning the "great" people/auctioneers is simply ignorance. People just don't know and I am not going to be the one to spoil their parade. Another person that knows almost as much is my friend Josh Evans. I am sure there are about 50-60 collectors, right now, shaking their collective heads in agreement.

BTW, I should add that not everyone in the hobby likes John, Josh, me....or many others ....I am merely stating my personal opinion.
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  #3  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:17 AM
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Leon:

Sounds like a very reputable guy. I am still wondering about the Koester Bread cards, the Standard Catalogue makes no mention that they were hand cut from a Koester Bread poster. I am guessing that type collectors might have at least one of these cards in their collection. If so, would you say that the card stock is more like paper (similar to other American Caramels) or a thicker cardboard stock? Maybe all is well with the cards listed on e-bay and the Standard Catalogue set description just needs to be updated.....
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  #4  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:27 AM
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Default Phil

Hey Phil
John is human like anyone else but when he says they are hand cut he is talking from over 40 yrs of experience. Maybe some were and some weren't, I don't know. The one I have doesn't look to be handcut. Next time I see John I will ask him about it. I think mine is in plastic so I don't know the thickness question........ best regards

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  #5  
Old 02-16-2010, 10:27 AM
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Default Koesters

Lew Lipset auctioned off an uncut sheet of these a couple/few years back--his archives should still have it. I thought he claimed that the sheet was available with or as part of the newspaper prior to the World Series, but I will defer to his description. In any event, it would appear that the Koesters did exist at one time in a form that would allow them to be hand cut. The three I have owned, however, did not appear hand cut.
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  #6  
Old 02-16-2010, 10:46 AM
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Look in Lipset's 2006 auction (I can't remember which one) and you will see an uncut sheet of 35 players that was obviously rec'd from Koesters Bread as it has many (not all) of the "exclusive" Koesters Bread cards on it (like the Burkett). Other than these two "sheet" finds all other Koesters cards I have seen and handled are factory cut.

I am pretty close (only a few cards left to find/not find) to pinpointing the exact scope of the Koesters set and any & all potential "exclusive" Koesters cards. Keep in mind that the vast majority of Koesters cards are in every way identical to the same players W575-1 card that could have been distributed in any # of ways (not just w/ Koesters). If one wants to be 100% sure they are purchasing a Koesters they should go for one of the "exclusive" cards like Jesse Burkett, Chas. Stengel(Portrait), Ed. Brown, Alex Ferguson, Bill Cunningham, etc.

-Rhett
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  #7  
Old 02-16-2010, 11:03 AM
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Here is an example of a Koesters Bread exclusive card (w/ factory cut)...
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  #8  
Old 02-16-2010, 11:10 AM
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I am guessing that many other e-bayers shared my doubts when making bidding decisions on these Koester Bread cards last night as the Ross Youngs sold for $70.99. Although it was hand-cut unevenly, the card still lists in the 2010 SCBC for $1,500, $900, $500 (these figures are approximate as I don't have the book handy) in varying conditions. I would think with this set being so scarce that a HOF'er would sell for far more than it did. I might have paid 4X the selling price if I knew the card to be legitimate.
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  #9  
Old 02-16-2010, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb View Post
I am guessing that many other e-bayers shared my doubts when making bidding decisions on these Koester Bread cards last night as the Ross Youngs sold for $70.99. Although it was hand-cut unevenly, the card still lists in the 2010 SCBC for $1,500, $900, $500 (these figures are approximate as I don't have the book handy) in varying conditions. I would think with this set being so scarce that a HOF'er would sell for far more than it did. I might have paid 4X the selling price if I knew the card to be legitimate.
Phil, I won 2 of the cards. I was also skeptical and emailed him. He sounded like he knew what he was talking about. The fact that he had a Burkett selling with these others made me feel like maybe they were Koester Bread cards. I thought the reason the Young(s) card went so low was that it will probably only get an Authentic grade, not sure. FYI. I spent 3 hours reading 5 years of N54 posts before bidding (back to the Hal Lewis days). I'm not sure how SGC will label them, of course, except the Burkett. As soon as I get them they are going overnight to SGC. Bottom line, after my research and email I trusted the seller. Dan
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:48 AM
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Dan:

It sounds like you put in the time and effort that I was too lazy to do and you were rewarded nicely for it! My guess is that as long as you are able to provide documentation of the Lew Lipset auction showing the cards cut from a sheet to SGC, they will probably encapsulate any/all of the cards from last night's auctions as "Authentic" only as they were all hand cut.
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  #11  
Old 02-16-2010, 12:03 PM
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I actually have a major problem with the grading companies encapsulating anything as a Koesters Bread card that isn't one of the exclusive cards I wrote about earlier.

While these cards were all likely Koesters as they obviously came from the same sheet/find. The problem lies in that every W575-1 of Dave Bancroft leaping in the air could then be deemed to be a Koesters Bread card and then be "worth" multiples over what it should. Even though these have the provenance as being Koesters (in my opinion) they are all just W575-1 UNLESS the player was only made by the Koesters Company--

Provenance can be tricky, I can already see people buying up any and all Yankee & Giants W575-1 cards and sending them to the same grading companies and having them all encapsulated as Koesters. I don't really care whether the card was made by Koesters or not, if one can't tell by looking at it on it's own merits it shouldn't be encapsulated as such.

-Rhett
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  #12  
Old 02-16-2010, 12:15 PM
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Rhett, can you verify that all of the w575-1s carry the exact same caption as Koester's except for what you call the exclusive cards, i.e. typeset and text are identical?
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  #13  
Old 02-16-2010, 03:09 PM
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Todd, there are actually a few that have some slight variations but I am not ready to out these yet as I need to do more research to confirm my theory. That being said, the VAST majority (roughly 75%) of "Koester's" cards are simply W575-1 cards--one would not be able to tell one from the other (thus in my opinion they are the same thing).
-Rhett

I just wanted to add: To me it would be analogous to making a distinction between a regular Tom Barker game card a card that came out of the Fenway Brewery set. The only cards in the Fenway Brewery set that are any different are the Baker and the Scorecard/Instructions have had the red overprints on them. Any cards other than Baker and the Scorecard by themselves one would never be able to tell which "set" they originated from--thus they are the same thing (at least in my eyes).
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  #14  
Old 02-16-2010, 03:25 PM
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Another way to think about these cards is this... we know that W575-1's were produced and distributed by many different outfits. I have seen many with caramel/candy stains and not to mention Henry Johnson & James Keating cards are simply W575-1's w/ their own rubber stamp on back. Thus, Koester's Bread was just another producer of the W575-1's--the only distinction is that we have surviving ads from Koesters and they decided to add a few players that were going to be playing in the World Series along with the already designed NY Giants and Yankees players that had been distributed via American Caramel, Gassler's, Haffner's, Witmor Candy, Clark's Bread, etc. along wth the other anonymous manufacturer cards (what we call W575-1). In other words since they already had many players' cards designed for these earlier promotions they added a few new guys to make the set the size they wanted consisting of only Giants and Yankee players.
-Rhett
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  #15  
Old 02-16-2010, 06:37 PM
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Personally I always go by Burdick on this series, and anything except that which is specified in the ACC with a number, gets my designation of W575/1- D/Unc Gasslers (or whatever back it is). That way it specifies what type of card it is, a group class and the brand. What more can a guy want?
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:36 PM
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Just a thought. Given the way printing was done then, It's unlikely the cards from a koesters sheet are exactly identical to W575s having come from a different printing plate. The key being "exactly". It's probable that there are tiny differences in the screening or dot pattern between the two sets. Inconsequential differences for most purposes, but still different enough to tell. If I owned any I'd do some 800 dpi scans and then I'd know for sure.

Steve
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:43 PM
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Steve, I have 2 Koester's cards (Burkett and Youngs) coming. I'd be willing to scan them at 800dpi and send you the images. However, I don't own any 575's. Maybe someone else could do the same? Dan

Last edited by DanP; 02-18-2010 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:56 PM
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It is more likely that the same company that printed the W575 cards also printed the cards to be distributed by Koesters so the same screens, stock, ink and images were almost certainly used. There could be some differences in the printing, but it is likely that unless new poses or positions were used, the cards are probably as identical as other cards from the series with identical fronts and just different backs.

Rhett is the walking encyclopedia on this stuff and his knowledge on these sets is really unbelievable (especially since it is ALL from memory and he does not use Price Guides or other peoples research and catalogs) so I am not speaking for him. That is just my understanding on how these cards were made.

Rhys
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:54 PM
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What you have to remember about all these E121-like sets is that they are very much like the T205 or T206 set (or even the M101-4/5 or E135/H801-8 family of sets), but for some reason we don't think of them like that. As in those sets, there are many different backs... all of which were produced by the same people but the difference lies in what is (or isn't) printed on the backs. It would make more sense for the printing company to use the image/card they had already designed for say Dave Bancroft for example than to design a brand new image or change anything for a new client (in this case Koester's). For players they hadn't already made yet the image was designed from scratch and those are the exclusive cards I was talking about. I am really close to developing a rough time line for most of the E121-like backs. These Koesters cards were produced in 1921, after the initial printing of the E121 Series of 80 set, but before the Series of 120 which was a 1922 production. These sets began w/ the first series of Holsum Bread cards (a 1920 issue) and ended with the later printings of E121 series of 120 and the W501 set-- so from 1920 to late 1922.
-Rhett
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Old 02-18-2010, 08:57 AM
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Has anyone seen a full gallery of the e121 series of 80? I would be very interested in knowing how many of the "old" photos are contained in the set--those taken from e135 and its ilk.

My initial thought years ago was that e120-80 was originally supposed to be just a group of recycled e135s with new team or position changes. Thinking it would be better to revamp, American Caramel then decided to add players who weren't around in 1917, along with updated photos for some of the more prominent players. What was puzzling was that the company clearly thought of issuing another, 120 card set, and did so within about a year, so why not wait instead of employing the more ad hoc approach of changing cards in e121-80, especially when many were just minor text changes? Sadly, I never got into the set to see where the research might take me on that.

All in all, my SCD book shows 136 different cards for this 80 card set. I wonder how many of these are the old photos and how many are not. Any facts, opinions or guesstimates are welcome.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:11 PM
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It would really depend on the exact printing process used

As I understand it, the Koesters have a few cards that are only Koesters and that sheets were available, maybe as a premium?

The cards look lithographed, and the way that much lithography was done pre-computer is that the original art was photographed, and the "negative" (Actually a positive image) Was taped to a mask, which made a full plate size sheet with transparencies on it. This was used to make the printing plate, also by a photographic process. Since the Koesters had special cards, and only certain other cards from W575 they would have made a new plate. In most cases this would have been done with a new mask. And that's where the differences would happen. Since the old mask would still be needed to make plates for standard W575s It would be saved.
New photos would be taken, and a new mask made for the Koesters plate. It's nearly impossible to get the screen lined up exactly the same twice in a row, and I can pretty much guarantee that the guy doing the pictures wouldn't have even considered trying. His job was to take the pictures and to do it well and quickly.
Now bear in mind that It's really tiny differences we'd be talking about, Like in a particular row is it 3 dots between the border and an object, or is it more like half a dot two complete dots then another half dot. Or are the lines of dots at a 45 degree angle or at 50degrees. Not enough to matter to nearly anyone, but still a difference you could find.

There are other printing methods, and some of them would have a similar process, for others with a somewhat different process there might not be a difference. For typography there probably would be no difference since there would be actual blocks made for each card, and the W575 blocks would be reused.

This is one of the things That for me has crossed over from stamp collecting. There sometimes the printing method gets to be very important telling which stamp it is, and if it's real. Lithography, typography, and engraving have very different characteristics, and if it was printed by typography, but has litho characteristics then it's fake. And the tiny differences actually matter. 5 dots on Washingtons nose $100. 7 dots .20 (Not actual details, but you get the idea)

I'd love to see nice detailed scans either way, I think theres a good deal to be learned from them.

Steve
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Old 02-23-2010, 07:27 PM
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I just sent my Burkett and Youngs Koester Bread cards to SGC today. I asked the seller how he knew the Young was really a Koester Bread card. Here was his response:

The Youngs card is printed on cardboard, like the Burkett as they were cut from the Koester's Ad sheet. (Probably in 1921!!)
No W575 or E121 types come on cardboard, all are on paper!
John


I've read 5 years of N54 threads regarding W575 and Koester cards. I don't remember anyone else mentioning the "cardboard" argument. I examined them when I received them today, they were on cardboard (thick, definitely not just paper).

Does this make sense to the experts out there?

Thanks.
Dan
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:12 PM
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I just took out my entire W575-1 collection (along with many that I know came directly from "Koesters collections") and nearly all are on the same card stock-the only ones that weren't are cards that correlate to the E121 Series of 120 set. (Please keep in mind that I am talking about the W575-1A cards not the W575-1B cards I have written about extensively on this forum.) All of my cards are on the exact same card stock as the E121 Series of 80 cards. Keep in mind the E121 Series of 120 cards are on thinner stock than the 80 set is--a difference very easy to tell when you hold one of each set.

John, is a VERY knowledgable collector and normally I would believe just about anything he says, however, in this case the Koesters that were distributed with the bread are on the same paper as the other W575-1A cards I have. If the sheet Koesters cards were thicker, I can't speak to that as I don't have any in front of me right now--but I doubt they printed their cards on two different types of paper (the distributed cards and the sheet cards).
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Old 02-27-2010, 06:19 PM
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I just wanted to provide some pictures of a recent (also on ebay) Koesters Bread find. These were not sheet cut but were factory cut as seen in the scans...


From this grouping the Casey Stengel and Ed Brown are the only 2 that are "exclusive" cards thoretically distributed only with Koesters. The other 4 are all players that were produced with at least the E121 American Caramel set if not several other brand backs. I see no difference between these four and other W575-1 cards.

Also, of all the Koesters exclusive cards the Stengel shown here has been one of the most elusive to me over the years, so I am really excited to add him to the collection. He would definitely (in my opinion) be the second highest demand Koesters card (other than the Jesse Burkett).

Anyways, I just wanted to share another mini Koesters find.
-Rhett
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Old 03-21-2010, 12:59 PM
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Just an update to this thread:
I sent the 2 cards I won from this auction (Burkett and Youngs) cards to SGC. Unfortunately they would not encapsulate them because they were hand cut from a sheet (I guess they agreed they were in fact Koester Bread cards).

I then sent them to PSA just hoping for a PSA Auth Hand Cut. I found out last week that they did receive an Auth Hand Cut grade. I'm happy about that, but still disappointed that SGC would not grade them the same.

Dan

Last edited by DanP; 03-21-2010 at 01:00 PM.
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  #26  
Old 03-22-2010, 03:32 AM
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I once had a Highpockets Kelly handcut and the card stock was way thicker than a W575-1 or E121. I sold it years ago.
Anyone here have this exact card? It was obviously much thicker stock.

how is the card stock on these handcut cards from Feb?

Last edited by fkw; 03-22-2010 at 03:33 AM.
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