OPINION: SGC got it wrong.

[Zan]

I preface this discussion/rant with two points:

1. I understand that we pay TPGs to provide an opinion.
2. I have used SGC exclusively for all of my vintage (except for an R309-2 which simply will not fit into their slab) for the past 10 years.







(back of Hank Greenberg, writing says Detroit Tigers Ligue Americaine (French for American League))

I came across 5 special cards one Saturday in NYC that I had never seen before. What I discovered was that these are not in fact a 1939 Goudey R303-A like I thought they were, but a V351B that was re-issued by World Wide Gum. The indication here is that the bottom and top borders were factory trimmed from the original R303-A, presumably to fit inside the distribution box that WWG used. Although this is one of the most obscure and scarcest gum issues ever, there is some information on them that I and my friends found regarding them.

The following eBay listing (not mine) tells an accurate story of how these cards came about (please disregard the part about dimensions and refer to my picture). I found this to be a great resource. Even our own Webster has written about these premiums on the forum. Please also refer to this eBay listing of a PSA graded example of one of these cards. Notice that they are different from a V351 as they were first produced in the US, and then distributed in Canada, unlike the V351 which can be seen to be "Lithographed in Canada" on the back.

SGC has never graded a single V351B. PSA has only graded 6 total cards of 4 players. I submitted these 5 cards at the East Coast National three Friday's ago, and specifically asked SGC to contact me with any questions regarding the designation or identification of these cards.

Fast forward to just last Friday. I checked my submission status of my order and saw that they were graded, but categorized at Goudey R303-As. I sent an email that night citing the sources I used above, as well as a description that Beckett used, as well as a completed collectors.com auction to strengthen my case. On Tuesday, I called and spoke to a representative who was very helpful and told me he would forward my information to the people who need to see it etc etc. I received an email back from them later that day with the following:

"We have looked further into this, and due to the fact that the cards says "Boston, Mass" (as opposed to "Lithographed in Canada") on the back and the fact that V351's do not have a borderline around the playing tips (whereas the R303's do), we believe these cards to be R303-A's"

It was clear to me that they simply ignored my sources, and graded the cards as such. They did not get it.

I called again this morning hoping to provide a more detailed explanation as to why I believed these cards to be V351B and not R303-A. I provided yet another source, and was finally told they would do their own research and get back to me. By my lunch break today at 3pm I had not heard, so I called and asked for a status update.

I was essentially told that there is not enough concrete evidence to support these being what they are. SGC refused to slab my cards with the V351B designation, citing that any R303-A can have the tops and bottoms trimmed off to make it look like a V351B. Although that might be true, my response to them was that I trust them as experts, and would hope they could signify a difference between a card that was factory trimmed in 1939, and a card trimmed post 1939. When I referenced the writing on the back of Hank Greenberg was in French, and that the original owner was French Canadian (I don't know this for fact but it can be deduced) I was told that writing and trimming mean nothing to us, because anyone can do it.

To say I am disappointed in a huge understatement. Even with all of the supporting evidence I provided, and the fact that the hobby recognizes this issue and that SGC does not really pisses me off.

My goal here is not to mudsling SGC, I simply want to share my experience with the group and see what opinions come of it.

Thank you for your time and reading my story.

Brian R.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

problem as I see it is you have a lot of conjecture but no proof. Unless I'm missing something there is nothing to conclusively distinguish your card form an altered R303A.

[Zan]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

problem as I see it is you have a lot of conjecture but no proof. Unless I'm missing something there is nothing to conclusively distinguish your card form an altered R303A.

Fair, but how does PSA make the distinction then?

[rhettyeakley]

They don’t know what they are doing. I have had many of these over the years that all originate from north of the border, despite the Boston address (they just used Goudey R303’s that had already been produced and factory cut them), there are many issues that show WWG and Goudey were more like Topps/OPeeChee in their relationship. The factory trim is very distinct and easy to distinguish. The problem is even some of the reference books fail to catalog the cards as well. I literally just picked a group of these at the National in a group of 10-15 regular V351’s. All this being said the value obviously is severely limited as one could take regular R303’s and simply trim them to size today. Tough issue but perhaps tougher to find people that care.

It sounds like they are just unaware that it was issued that way, which is not acceptable. If they were saying they didn’t want to grade them due to possibility of someone trimming them recently to make a crease free but VG R303 into a NMMT V351-B then I can understand their hesitation in grading them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It sounds to me like you should enlist Rhett's help to explain the distinctiveness of the factory cut, satisfy yourself that they are factory cut, and take another run at SGC armed with this information.

[Zan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It sounds to me like you should enlist Rhett's help to explain the distinctiveness of the factory cut, satisfy yourself that they are factory cut, and take another run at SGC armed with this information.

Agreed, Peter. Rhett, email is coming soon.

Brian

[conor912]

Sorry if I have misunderstood this, and please correct me if I'm wrong. What I'm reading is that these are R303s, printed in Boston, with the rest of the R303s. They were then sent to Canada, trimmed, and packaged with WWG and by that virtue alone it now magically makes them V351s?

[rhettyeakley]

Yes, it was done magically.

[rhettyeakley]

Ok, in seriousness. Yes that is how these items were distributed.

The World Wide Gum Co. and Goudey were the "same" company just like Topps and O-Pee-Chee were later, thus the reason they made the same or similar sets like 1933-34 Goudey, also see the Sea Raider cards that have both a Boston and Montreal location on back.

You can think it is all silly but they were issued exactly like you just stated in Canada using (likely left over) stock from Goudey and trimmed and distributed that way. Again, it makes it a different issue but admittedly one that wouldnt be to everyone's fancy as one could make their normal R303 a Canadian versions with a paper cutter. Weird? Yes. Magical? No.

I know I have handled probably 40-50 of them over the years that have ALL come from Canada and they all have the top and bottom borders trimmed from the R303's to make them roughly the size of the regular V351's that they would also produce (likely later when they had added a few Canadian players and produced a smaller physical size card).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by conor912

Sorry if I have misunderstood this, and please correct me if I'm wrong. What I'm reading is that these are R303s, printed in Boston, with the rest of the R303s. They were then sent to Canada, trimmed, and packaged with WWG and by that virtue alone it now magically makes them V351s?

That's how they were distributed apparently, and by a different (if related) company, so why not a separate designation, don't see the issue.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Ostensibly because SGC can't determine whether the cut was done in the period or if it was done later.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Ostensibly because SGC can't determine whether the cut was done in the period or if it was done later.

If this is the reason that they will not grade the issue I don’t really have a problem with it, that being said it appears from their correspondence that they were not aware of the issue at all, which I find a bit troublesome.

I could be wrong but I believe the large Beckett Almanac has these listed. It isn’t an unknown set, although I struggle calling them V351-B as opposed to a variation of R303 that were distributed in Canada, although I suppose they would need a V-designation if they were distributed in Canada.