Prices coming down...

[Flintboy]

This may have been already rehashed over a few months ago but looking at values recently on VCP ,prices have dropped dramatically. I know there was talk of a "buyers group" but does anyone know what caused the drop off? It almost seems like around November of last year is when it went "back to normal"....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

This may have been already rehashed over a few months ago but looking at values recently on VCP ,prices have dropped dramatically. I know there was talk of a "buyers group" but does anyone know what caused the drop off? It almost seems like around November of last year is when it went "back to normal"....

What goes up must come down particularly when the up was manipulated.

Here are a couple of good graphs from VCP. High grade Roses and Ryans and Koufaxes and Clementes and such forget which is which now.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here's another one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here's the Bench rookie and that wasn't even a prime target (PSA 8).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yaz 8.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Staubach 8.

[Snapolit1]

Look at the bids at Heritage on the auction closing tonight and then tell me the sky is falling.

[bigfish]

The sky is falling on high grade 50's and 60's rookie cards. Manipulation is over.

Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Lou Gerig , Cy Young, and rarer items continue to rise.

[Yoda]

The syndicates were very busy indeed last Fall. Hmm.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bigfish

The sky is falling on high grade 50's and 60's rookie cards. Manipulation is over.

Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Lou Gerig , Cy Young, and rarer items continue to rise.

Exactly.

[Jobu]

Just for fun, let's see the chart for the green T206 Cobb.

[sreader3]

Thanks for the charts Peter. Very informative. Looks to me like a healthy market with modest appreciation has returned after a Hunt brothers-type spike.

https://www.buyandhold.com/bh/en/edu...hunt_bros.html

[MattyC]

Unfortunately some Ruths (e121, Goudeys, a few other more obscure issues), T206 classics (i,e,m Wajo portrait, Cobb portraits), and others were also manipulation targets, with varying degrees of success. The occasional mercenary *@#$ who tries to use sportscards to make some fast money isn't picky about the side of WWII on which he plays his games.

One additional observation is that while the higher pop card offers a "dumper" more opportunities to sell at an inflated price, the problem with the rarer cards is that manipulation can last longer, since fewer come up for sale to eventually "outlast" the manipulation.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Look at the bids at Heritage on the auction closing tonight and then tell me the sky is falling.

No kidding!

It still blows me away what people pay for the bidders premium.

$30, $40, $50g's+ seems to be the norm for these high end auctions.
https://sports.ha.com/c/search-resul...73015-interior

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by irv

No kidding!

It still blows me away what people pay for the bidders premium.

$30, $40, $50g's+ seems to be the norm for these high end auctions.
https://sports.ha.com/c/search-resul...73015-interior

Very true. Lots of people still seem to have lots of disposable income. Sheesh

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by irv

No kidding!

It still blows me away what people pay for the bidders premium.

$30, $40, $50g's+ seems to be the norm for these high end auctions.
https://sports.ha.com/c/search-resul...73015-interior

what about what the sellers are willing to give up potentially. However if noone wanted the cards at the prices they wanted in a direct deal they have no other choice really if they want to sell the card. Easy to say on a 100k card with BP why did the seller give up 5-20k but if he couldnt sell the card for 80-85k lets say, in the private market.what else he he supposed to do...

[Leon]

But some of the high grade rookies are remaining fairly high, just not to the extremes with the fraudulent manipulation we saw.

Originally Posted by bigfish

The sky is falling on high grade 50's and 60's rookie cards. Manipulation is over.

Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Lou Gerig , Cy Young, and rarer items continue to rise.

[jboosted92]

can someone explain the "manipulation" that occurred to me? thx

[Republicaninmass]

It will never just go away. Think of gas when it was 4$ a gallon, then I heard a few muttons heads talking last year "hey gas is unda two bucks", that seemed like a steal!

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by bigfish

The sky is falling on high grade 50's and 60's rookie cards. Manipulation is over.

Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Lou Gerig , Cy Young, and rarer items continue to rise.

You can add Mantle to your list above, as continuing to rise...check out Heritage.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by jboosted92

can someone explain the "manipulation" that occurred to me? thx

Long story, subject to 1000s of posts here. If I had to summarize it a long run-on poorly crafted sentence I would say that there were a stunning explosion in the "value" of some post war cards (mostly 50s and 60s rookie cards) in a brief few month period of time where after the fact there appeared to be some pretty good evidence that some (many?) of these record breaking transactions were likely sham transactions that were never actually completed, but merely designed to document "sales" in Vintage card Prices and elsewhere in order to run up the prices of these cards to inflated levels so others could then sell into that frenzy to make some serious money.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Unfortunately some Ruths (e121, Goudeys, a few other more obscure issues), T206 classics (i,e,m Wajo portrait, Cobb portraits), and others were also manipulation targets, with varying degrees of success. The occasional mercenary *@#$ who tries to use sportscards to make some fast money isn't picky about the side of WWII on which he plays his games.

One additional observation is that while the higher pop card offers a "dumper" more opportunities to sell at an inflated price, the problem with the rarer cards is that manipulation can last longer, since fewer come up for sale to eventually "outlast" the manipulation.

Just because some cards that were previously undervalued (like some of the ones you mention) went up in value, I don't think they were necessarily manipulated. There is a genuine high demand on all Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig cards. I think the high grade 50's and 60's rookies were the real targets here. If you find any Ruth, Gehrig, or Cobb's that have gone down in value, let me know so I can buy them. I think it is possible that when we saw the 50's cards getting manipulated, we bought pre-war at a premium for fear that they would explode next. Doesn't mean that they were manipulated.

[MattyC]

Orlando, the manipulators will try and play their game with cards that collectors generally perceive as undervalued; that is what allows the hustle to succeed, because it is very hard for anyone on the "outside" to parse manipulation from overdue appreciation for such cards. No question and I agree that there is some genuine appreciation out there, alongside the other kind. I also agree that there was some appreciation in value on some cards that were bought thinking they could explode next, so get'em now; that is a great point, and it makes those premiums paid "fruit of the poisonous tree," to some extent.

As to your question, yes, I can point one out for you to buy: the e121 Ruth in PSA 3 grade. Per VCP, the card was a 5k to 7k card— then out of nowhere it hits 22.8k. As to the cause for one anomalous sale of any card, could be any one or more of a number of factors, many legitimate, some not— from pent up demand, to the perfect storm of buyers, to a fake sale or manipulation attempt.

There have been three successive sales since in the same grade, and each has declined, from 16.4k, to 14.7k, to 12.7k.

The good news I would imagine is that most of us collect for love of the sport and love of cards, and in terms of daily happiness in life those things far outshine the Sturm und Drang that comes when the focus shifts to money.

[orly57]

You got me. As I was typing, the e121 Ruth came to mind as the one example. I agree on that one. I would argue that it is still higher now than it was before though. Sometimes the manipulation makes us realize just how awesome and undervalued a card is and the value still evens out higher than it was before. We finally pull the trigger on a card we always wanted after realizing it almost flew out of our wheelhouse.

[BobbyVCP]

Just have to chime in and say those graphs on VCP are very nice....

[Andrew1975]

While I agree, generally, with your analysis of the recent E121 Ruth pricing, I would add that the notion of "buying the card, not the holder", is perhaps even more important when looking at lower graded cards. Based upon VCP images, it looks like the card that sold for 12.7k has some paper loss front/center of the card (overgraded?). If anyone has for sale or knows of a nicely centered, PSA 3 - E121 Ruth (with no paper loss) for 12.7k, please let me know!

I'll add that I recently purchased an SGC 3 - E121 Ruth, with good eye appeal (in my opinion), and paid in between the low and high figures mentioned. With that said, I am a collector, and not a flipper, with no intentions of selling the card. Short term, if I did want to sell it, I'm not sure that I could get back what I paid for it.

Regards,

Andrew

Originally Posted by MattyC

Orlando, the manipulators will try and play their game with cards that collectors generally perceive as undervalued; that is what allows the hustle to succeed, because it is very hard for anyone on the "outside" to parse manipulation from overdue appreciation for such cards. No question and I agree that there is some genuine appreciation out there, alongside the other kind. I also agree that there was some appreciation in value on some cards that were bought thinking they could explode next, so get'em now; that is a great point, and it makes those premiums paid "fruit of the poisonous tree," to some extent.

As to your question, yes, I can point one out for you to buy: the e121 Ruth in PSA 3 grade. Per VCP, the card was a 5k to 7k card— then out of nowhere it hits 22.8k. As to the cause for one anomalous sale of any card, could be any one or more of a number of factors, many legitimate, some not— from pent up demand, to the perfect storm of buyers, to a fake sale or manipulation attempt.

There have been three successive sales since in the same grade, and each has declined, from 16.4k, to 14.7k, to 12.7k.

The good news I would imagine is that most of us collect for love of the sport and love of cards, and in terms of daily happiness in life those things far outshine the Sturm und Drang that comes when the focus shifts to money.

[glchen]

Anyone selling a decent looking E121 Ruth in PSA or SGC 3 for $12K, please PM me. I'm looking for one also.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobbyVCP

Just have to chime in and say those graphs on VCP are very nice....

They are a great feature.

[Flintboy]

Ok so the "fraudulent manipulation" occurred.....did we figure out why it stopped so suddenly? If this has been discussed on here before, just point me to the thread, no need to rehash it...

[jboosted92]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Long story, subject to 1000s of posts here. If I had to summarize it a long run-on poorly crafted sentence I would say that there were a stunning explosion in the "value" of some post war cards (mostly 50s and 60s rookie cards) in a brief few month period of time where after the fact there appeared to be some pretty good evidence that some (many?) of these record breaking transactions were likely sham transactions that were never actually completed, but merely designed to document "sales" in Vintage card Prices and elsewhere in order to run up the prices of these cards to inflated levels so others could then sell into that frenzy to make some serious money.

yikes....super

i actually thought it might be this:


Lets say someone(S) has some PSA9-10 , 50s/60s ( Clemente, Koufax for instance)

They see some PSA 8s come up for auction, and them and someone else, considerably over pay ( Example, what would maybe go for 4000, they pay 10,000)....now that then shoots up the value of their PSA9/10 that the subsequently put on the market....make a profit, then hurry up and turn around and sell their PSA8 they just bought at 10k, for at least what they paid.....

[Danny Smith]

Cool to see the charts. I don't think we will ever know what actually happened but my favorite theory based off of the charts/activity/the way my brain works because of my profession is that someone (and maybe a couple of his/her buddies) with some cash to launder got hip to the sports card game.

Dirty money in. Clean money out with no real concern for loss. No regulation whatsoever. Pretty smart timing given the massive amount of auctions in the spring and national in the summer. Most liquid marketplace of the year.

Like I said who knows but that's what has always stuck in my head.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by jboosted92

yikes....super

i actually thought it might be this:


Lets say someone(S) has some PSA9-10 , 50s/60s ( Clemente, Koufax for instance)

They see some PSA 8s come up for auction, and them and someone else, considerably over pay ( Example, what would maybe go for 4000, they pay 10,000)....now that then shoots up the value of their PSA9/10 that the subsequently put on the market....make a profit, then hurry up and turn around and sell their PSA8 they just bought at 10k, for at least what they paid.....

I've heard from a reliable source that what you described was the impetus for some of the shenanigans.

[Yoda]

No doubt a bunch of side agreements exist between the "players."

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by glchen

Anyone selling a decent looking E121 Ruth in PSA or SGC 3 for $12K, please PM me. I'm looking for one also.

There's an sgc 3.5 for 21.5, plus my 10%

[savedfrommyspokes]

Speaking of down, I can't remember the last time I saw a 52 Topps Mantle graded as a 2 sell for less than $9k legitimately.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-S...p2047675.l2557

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

Speaking of down, I can't remember the last time I saw a 52 Topps Mantle graded as a 2 sell for less than $9k legitimately.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-S...p2047675.l2557

A mere 7 years ago, I was underbidder on a PSA 2 for $4500. Not a lifetime ago. It just seems like they have been high for awhile. The run up is recent.

[Leon]

Nice card but it does have a pretty big crease in his head....sort of generous 2 imo......I would get a 1.5 if I submitted it ....

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

Speaking of down, I can't remember the last time I saw a 52 Topps Mantle graded as a 2 sell for less than $9k legitimately.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-S...p2047675.l2557

[MVSNYC]

Leon, I was about to say same, but didn't want to offend the winner of that card...it's also pretty off center. Actually, price seems about right.

[1952boyntoncollector]

also remember some people remark how certain cards were getting '4' money for a '2' but we all know there are many candidates of '2's that with a little bit of polish can be 5s etc.... so to me theres a difference of a card being bought as a '2' to be put on display...or a '2' to just be polished and flipped..

[packs]

It seems like some people are concerned about this but shouldn't we be happy prices are going down?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by packs

It seems like some people are concerned about this but shouldn't we be happy prices are going down?

I think some folks are more concerned at this point with proving they were right all along or in seeing perceived evildoers take it on the chin. Or both.

[jboosted92]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I've heard from a reliable source that what you described was the impetus for some of the shenanigans.

well super...it took me about 20 seconds to think of that scheme....imagine what could be done with time....

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

There's an sgc 3.5 for 21.5, plus my 10%

Thanks, but I'm looking to pick up those beautiful copies where the price is dropping like a rock, and $21.5K for a 3.5 doesn't seem like a firesale to me.

(In fairness to the seller of that card, it's a really nice card with the Babe not in quotes, which is the rarer variety. A 5 went for $43K over the weekend in Heritage.)

[pawpawdiv9]

I see prices climbing ^^^^^ on the old school stuff.
Did ya see the 1916-20 Big Head W-UNC Babe Ruth on Probstein?
Wow. Didn't know only 3 graded by PSA. I could of swore a board member had one here.
Wonder if its this other guy on Ebay selling his?
(PROBSTEIN'S)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1916-20-W-UN...vip=true&rt=nc, .
(EBAY SELLER)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-of-3-Scarc...3D371868324127

[ullmandds]

WOW! That's a nice example...of a rare strip of a cartoon ruth that looks nothing like him!

Originally Posted by pawpawdiv9

I see prices climbing ^^^^^ on the old school stuff.
Did ya see the 1916-20 Big Head W-UNC Babe Ruth on Probstein?
Wow. Didn't know only 3 graded by PSA. I could of swore a board member had one here.
Wonder if its this other guy on Ebay selling his?
(PROBSTEIN'S)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1916-20-W-UN...vip=true&rt=nc, .
(EBAY SELLER)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-of-3-Scarc...3D371868324127

[Snapolit1]

Person who drew that apparently had no idea who Babe Ruth was. Scary bad. I have zero artistic skill and could do a lot better.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

maybe it's Rube Marquard...

[glchen]

Hey, that's one of my favorite Ruth cards! Can't you see the resemblance?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

maybe it's Rube Marquard...

haw haw!!!!

[orly57]

It is valuable, in my opinion, because it is probably the only Red Sox era Ruth card that most collectors can afford. The Cobb Big Head, for example, isn't very expensive or coveted. I will never understand what makes one rare card worth more than another. My Orange Border Cobb just sold on pwcc for $730. There are like 9 known specimens! It is an early Cobb, it isn't a cartoon, and it is Ty freaking Cobb!!! Most guys spit on all strip cards, but will drop 6k on this Big Head.
And yes, there is a board member who owns one of these Ruth Big Heads. It isn't me, but he is a friend of mine, and it will be available for sale soon. It is nicer than the one that sold.