Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Just common sense. If they reasonably believed the cards were authentic, and a grading company agreed, how do you hold an auction house accountable. I would hope you know the law better than I do so enlighten me. What crime would have been committed?

Your first if is counterfactual. You're basically saying if they were innocent I don't think they could have committed a crime.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Your first if is counterfactual. You're basically saying if they were innocent I don't think they could have committed a crime.

I haven't seen anything yet that would suggest otherwise. If you, Jeff, or anyone else has I'd like to see it.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I haven't seen anything yet that would suggest otherwise. If you, Jeff, or anyone else has I'd like to see it.

I have.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I have.

It wouldn't convince Jesse. But of course he's willing to convict PSA on the basis that money is involved. Therefore the graders must have taken bribes.

[vintagetoppsguy]

If PSA can't detect ninety-something basketball cards that were trimmed (and those are just the ones that were confirmed), what is the purpose of grading? Oh, yeah, I remember: to add value. They're definitely adding value allright.

Ninety-something cards. SMH. And y'all believe everything is on the up and up at PSA?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If PSA can't detect ninety-something basketball cards that were trimmed (and those are just the ones that were confirmed), what is the purpose of grading? Oh, yeah, I remember: to add value. They're definitely adding value allright.

Ninety-something cards. SMH. And y'all believe everything is on the up and up at PSA?

My preferred explanation is still incompetence plus insufficient time or equipment to detect high quality alteration, particularly with ever-increasing pressure to move more quickly to meet turnaround times.

[jchcollins]

One thing the grading companies could do to help in terms of the "provenance" argument is to start keeping / making available more detailed notes, at least on cards over a certain value. When was the card graded? Was it a raw submit or a crossover? How many times has it been reholdered? At least for the super high-end pieces, graders notes would be a lot more transparent too. What were the overall impressions of the card? Why were the corners a 5 and not a 6? Why did the card get a .5 bump? What is the graders interpretation of centering in comparison to the standard?

All of this would give tremendous more insight into the process. And the position of the TPG's as long as there have been TPG's (with the noted exception of Beckett doing sub-grades, which they no longer do on vintage) is that well, this is our opinion - but we are only going to give you a number and not tell you why this is our opinion. Which of course leads to frustration and hot heads later when a card that looks like a 5 all day long is a 3, and when a card that looks otherwise like a 7 is a 5, and the other way around when a card that looks like a 4 somehow got a 6. I guess the grading companies think that this would open them up to liability - in the inevitable case that the graders notes for a particular card were then later found not to match the stated standards / description of the grade?

The earlier post about provenance rings true though. For expensive works of art offered for sale, there can be a virtual accompanying book on the provenance of the piece. I agree that it certainly would not hurt to start thinking more in those terms for cards. At least for the iconic pieces of the hobby...I'm not sure I want to see detailed provenance for every '89 UD Griffey graded Mint 9...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My preferred explanation is still incompetence plus insufficient time or equipment to detect high quality alteration, particularly with ever-increasing pressure to move more quickly to meet turnaround times.

Altered cards are going through PSA at an alarming rate. I think we can both agree on that statement.

There has to be an explanation why and there aren't a lot choices. It's either "dirty" graders or, as you said, incompetence. I can't think of any other explanation, can you?

So if they either have graders that are on the take or are just plain incompetent, why are people still submitting to PSA? I truly don't get it.

Why aren’t these altered cards showing up in SGC or BVG/BGS slabs (not saying that some don’t slip by them too, just saying everything that’s been brought to light recently is in a PSA slab)?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My preferred explanation is still incompetence plus insufficient time or equipment to detect high quality alteration, particularly with ever-increasing pressure to move more quickly to meet turnaround times.

I've been saying for at least a couple years that grading companies need to abandon the turnaround time aspect of things.

Take the time necessary to get it right.

For modern stuff with serial numbers, and other easily identifiable aspects for each card, build a database of images just like the people on the other forum do. Heck, do that for some older cards as well. (In stamps, it's called a census, and it's pretty cool being able to look at a webpage showing every know copy of a particular item. )

When I've sent cards in, they've been done right around on time, I think 20 days. When I sent in a couple stamps, it was 3 months, and cost more.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It wouldn't convince Jesse. But of course he's willing to convict PSA on the basis that money is involved. Therefore the graders must have taken bribes.

I said I'd be surprised if someone hadn't been paid off. Not that I know anything for certain, or that there's enough evidence to convict. And I'm sure Brent wouldn't claim all of his cards were legitimate. How could he? I can't even claim all of my cards are with certainty. I know I've never altered them.

As I said in another post I haven't seen enough evidence to say what, if anything, pwcc is guilty of. If there is proof they had a card altered, submitted for grading, then sold on their platform that would be different. If they knew certain cards were altered but auctioned them any way that wouldn't be a good look, but I don't know the law well enough to say that's a crime.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I said I'd be surprised if someone hadn't been paid off. Not that I know anything for certain, or that there's enough evidence to convict. And I'm sure Brent wouldn't claim all of his cards were legitimate. How could he? I can't even claim all of my cards are with certainty. I know I've never altered them.

As I said in another post I haven't seen enough evidence to say what, if anything, pwcc is guilty of. If there is proof they had a card altered, submitted for grading, then sold on their platform that would be different. If they knew certain cards were altered but auctioned them any way that wouldn't be a good look, but I don't know the law well enough to say that's a crime.

While I think it is a crime, I know it's certainly not ethical. Brent is a snake oil salesman. That much I am clear about. Where there is smoke there is fire.

[irv]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Just common sense. If they reasonably believed the cards were authentic, and a grading company agreed, how do you hold an auction house accountable. I would hope you know the law better than I do so enlighten me. What crime would have been committed?

Have you been paying attention to this thread on BO? It sure sounds like Brent and PWCC cares about the hobby and will do what it takes to help keep it clean.

Post#1012, and others. Like the post with proof reads, he had adequate time (8 days) to do something but chose not to.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=41

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by irv

Have you been paying attention to this thread on BO? It sure sounds like Brent and PWCC cares about the hobby and will do what it takes to help keep it clean.

Post#1012, and others. Like the post with proof reads, he had adequate time (8 days) to do something but chose not to.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=41

Plausible deniability.

Conscious avoidance.

Follow the money.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not even Brent has claimed he believed the cards were all legitimate. He knows he would get skewered if he did. No, Brent said, OK from now on we aren't dealing with these people.

But carry on.