1909-11 T206 Honus Wagner vs. 1911-16 Kotton Honus Wagner: Who Has More?

[rman444]

Leon -

Glad it arrived safely. Can you share the details of your find?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rman444

Leon -

Glad it arrived safely. Can you share the details of your find?

Hey Richard
I wish I could claim that I found it but I didn't. Another board member won it recently in an auction. Jon Canfield knew about it too. I have bought quite a few packs from the member that won it so he knew I would have an interest in it. He asked if I would like to buy it? I had to think about it, for almost a second . Then we just had to haggle on value/price. It wasn't cheap but he gave me a pretty good deal compared to it's scarcity and what other packs go for, with similar qualities. I just didn't care to talk too much about it before, as I didn't have it in hand and didn't want to jinx myself. You know how that goes. Anywho, we can probably cross one off of the list for cards with packs/pouches associated with them. That being said this doesn't have a stamp at all but it's my understanding that some packs during this time period didn't have them. It might have to do with the Trust, but I am not sure. Maybe Jon will chime in.....and also, I know there is a chance this might not be the exact year of the card but I do think it is close, if not spot on. regards

[DixieBaseball]

Leon- Incredible find and great thread of some real toughies. Thanks for sharing ! Those New Orleans brand tobacco packs and cards are the best !

Does anyone (Richard) know how close Factory 3, 4 / 11 were to each other in New Orleans ? ( I don't recall ever seeing an address)

[Leon]

Probably my favorite T216... I have seen a few of these Cobbs, of paper thin variety, but most have been quite off condition. I think Toby and I went head to head for this one on ebay some time ago. regards.....

[jimonym]

This thread is spectacular.

NB, multiple factory numbers don't necessarily imply separate free-standing buildings or facilities. Under the internal revenue regulations, operations for the manufacture of cigarettes and the manufacture of smoking and chewing tobacco had to be kept separate, but could coexist under one roof if there was adequate physical separation. Apparently it was too difficult to track tobacco leaf usage if the two types of manufacturing were commingled -- and the tracking of leaf input and product output is what allowed the tax collectors to verify that no untaxed product was slipping out the back door. Registered factory numbers were connected to the distinct operations around the category of product (cigars/cigarettes v. loose tobacco), not the bricks and mortar structure.

I believe the People's Tobacco Co. had one facility, located at the address on Richard's letterhead. Here's a detailed Sanborn map from 1908 showing the factory property. The PTC was a pretty small-time operation: note the structure at its tallest was just 1 1/2 stories. The main factories of the Trust at this time were generally each on the order of 5 to 10 times larger, and the Trust had well over 20 in operation.

[DixieBaseball]

Jim - Very interesting, Thanks for posting the Peoples Factory Map. What I was referring to on Factory 3 and 4 were People's Tobacco & Red Sun Tobacco. I think we talked about this on another thread awhile back, but not sure anyone has confirmed where Red Sun Tobacco was located at or was it a sub-tobacco leasee within a company like People's ? I find the mystery fascinating and it would seem that the road to figuring out Red Sun, might possibly be through other area tobacco companies in the area.

Thanks again for the info you provided -

J

[jimonym]

Jeremy,

Red Sun (the T211 Red Sun) was a brand produced by the W.R. Irby Cigar & Tobacco Company of New Orleans. Factory 3 in Louisiana was connected with their operations. They were purchased by ATC in 1899. Afterwards the facility became known as the Irby Branch of the American Tobacco Company and it continued to exclusively produce the former Irby brands for distribution primarily in the South and Southwest. The Irby structures were just a few blocks from the PTC.

[FrankWakefield]

I have only one Kotton card. I've never seen a Kotton package / pouch, that's great!!! I think this thread has taken a detour, one that I find enjoyable. Great stuff. As for the original question, I'd think there are more Wagner T206s about today than there are Wagner Kotton cards. Kotton cards are about as scarce as Kotton collectors. I'd think many of the folks who have a Kotton card have only one. Someone collecting the set, he's The Man.