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  #1  
Old 09-04-2018, 08:02 PM
ruth-gehrig ruth-gehrig is online now
Mich@el K. Tr0tnic
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Default Does PWCC tell the truth? - baseball signs

PWCC may know cards but but they aren't showing their expertise on some memorabilia here. This first listing claims this piece was showed to several "experts" at the most recent Sports Collectors Convention and "the consensus was consistent". Please elaborate on what that consensus was because I know it wasn't "genuine" if experts took even a 1 second glance. Sizes are off, colors are off and quality isn't even close. Take a look......

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1912-T202-H...C/142922100759
Fake
13" x 18.5"

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...ising-display/
Genuine
40" x 60"


Next up is 1941-1942 Ted Williams/Joe DiMaggio Advertisement. Not even close to being genuine much like the first example. Heritage recently sold a genuine one. Check both links.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1941-Louisv...C/142923130640
Fake
11" x 12"

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/c...umbnail-071515
Genuine
21" x 25"
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1912-t202-hassan-triple-folder-advertising-display.jpg (63.7 KB, 1343 views)
File Type: jpg 12345.jpg (45.6 KB, 1335 views)
File Type: jpg s-l4001.jpg (30.9 KB, 1324 views)
File Type: jpg s-l4002.jpg (39.4 KB, 1309 views)
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  #2  
Old 09-04-2018, 10:33 PM
murphusa murphusa is offline
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The only times I have seen the red joe and ted was on the back cover of a magazine
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  #3  
Old 09-05-2018, 12:43 AM
bobfreedman bobfreedman is online now
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Default Hassan

I had a lengthy discussion with someone about the Hassan piece and as near as I can tell us it’s a newspaper clipping because the “real” ones are very large and sell for $100k. Everything else about the Hassan piece was wrong as well. Wrong colors, wrong size, wrong texture, but other than that, it was ok.
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  #4  
Old 09-05-2018, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobfreedman View Post
I had a lengthy discussion with someone about the Hassan piece and as near as I can tell us it’s a newspaper clipping because the “real” ones are very large and sell for $100k. Everything else about the Hassan piece was wrong as well. Wrong colors, wrong size, wrong texture, but other than that, it was ok.
All true I'm sure, but still worthy of consideration.
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  #5  
Old 09-05-2018, 08:57 AM
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Brent Huigens Brent Huigens is offline
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Default Follow up from PWCC

I want to comment on this thread. Agreed that advertising signs are not our expertise so I want to be data driven in our assessment of this and try not to assume. This is what I can say:

1) Despite the original post's accusation, we have indeed shown this item to four different people unrelated to PWCC, all of whom educated collector/investors, and one of whom I do consider a memorabilia expert (as does PSA/DNA).
2) Everyone who has held this piece agrees that it's old. It's only those looking at auction images who remain doubtful (and I don't blame folks for this). Agreed that no 'authority' on the issue has commented; I'm not sure who that would be.
3) Obviously this is a different product from the REA sale of 2006. Aside from the size, the print quality is far inferior, as are colored inks used, and even the design is notably different (including a Hassan advertisement on the Mathewson panel).
4) The guess that this was a newspaper advertisement is interesting... would explain the print quality and faded red coloring (common flaw in cheaper red inks used in the pre-1930s). However, in my opinion, this is absolutely NOT a newspaper add adhered to a thicker card stock backing. The process of trying to glue thin paper stock (which this is not) to a thicker card board backing (this is about 1/16") would induce wrinkles, tears, delamination, misalignment at the edges, and other obvious flaws which are not present on this piece. The die-cut aspects of this piece clearly convey mass production in my opinion, not an at-home art project.
5) To the best of my ability, referencing vintage cardboard on trading cards, the wear, staining, and overall patina of the piece is absolutely old. It's possible this was a reproduction from 30-50 years ago, but this was not produced recently as I don't believe the faded red, staining and oxidation on the piece could be reasonably reproduced. I suppose someone looking to commit fraud could be capable of anything, but I don't see the upside in this case for such an act... the cost to fake this item to a degree that fools someone like me would be exceedingly expensive...I don't see the upside.
6) While I do believe the piece is vintage, I can't say for certain its circa 1910 and it could be a reproduction of some kind from later on. Why a manufacturer would reproduce something like this (costly) is hard to fathom due to it's size and esoteric nature...who would want it? But I have to remain open to this possibility. What I do feel is true is that if this were a reproduction, I'm sure the manufacturer made more than one and somebody should be able to find a historical sale of some kind for the repro so we can know either way. I have tried to find such a sale and been unable.


Personally, I believe this to be genuine piece from 1910 era. Clearly a lower production quality advertisement than the REA example, perhaps meant to be displayed above the Hassan products within the store. It's size and format would make sense for such a thing. The REA example is so large and brightly printed that I don't see it used in close proximity to Hassan products, but rather perhaps displayed elsewhere to drive traffic.

Bottom line, obviously I don't have definitive answers, but this is as much as I know.
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  #6  
Old 09-05-2018, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobfreedman View Post
I had a lengthy discussion with someone about the Hassan piece and as near as I can tell us it’s a newspaper clipping because the “real” ones are very large and sell for $100k. Everything else about the Hassan piece was wrong as well. Wrong colors, wrong size, wrong texture, but other than that, it was ok.
The ebay description says "made from cardstock". That and the fact that it is color lead away from its being a newspaper clipping.

I would think that looking at the litho characteristics under a 10x would solve the issue quickly, but if four experts looked at it, I'm sure they did it using a magnifier.

Given how big the REA one was (60") and the fact that it is (was?) the only known example, it makes sense that whoever created these would have made smaller versions that could have been used for more varied purposes. The fact that this one is different from the larger one (box at bottom right of display on smaller one) supports this idea.

Last edited by Runscott; 09-05-2018 at 09:27 AM.
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  #7  
Old 09-05-2018, 10:23 AM
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I'm not going to comment on my thoughts on authenticity... but I can tell you that i could have a dozen of these printed on any media you wanted by the end of the day and it wouldn't cost a lot . Printing technology is amazing .
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  #8  
Old 09-05-2018, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MGHPro View Post
I'm not going to comment on my thoughts on authenticity... but I can tell you that i could have a dozen of these printed on any media you wanted by the end of the day and it wouldn't cost a lot . Printing technology is amazing .
Matt, a 10X loup overrules today's printing technology.
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  #9  
Old 09-05-2018, 11:27 AM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is offline
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Default Two cents worth

On both pieces, and also my opinion of them. Honestly, they both have that yellowed, fake-stressed look to the front and that fake-stained-and-dirty look to the back that we've all seen too often.

Last edited by Hankphenom; 09-05-2018 at 11:27 AM.
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  #10  
Old 09-05-2018, 11:28 AM
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Brent, do you know if this piece was viewed under a black light?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Huigens View Post
I want to comment on this thread. Agreed that advertising signs are not our expertise so I want to be data driven in our assessment of this and try not to assume. This is what I can say:

1) Despite the original post's accusation, we have indeed shown this item to four different people unrelated to PWCC, all of whom educated collector/investors, and one of whom I do consider a memorabilia expert (as does PSA/DNA).
2) Everyone who has held this piece agrees that it's old. It's only those looking at auction images who remain doubtful (and I don't blame folks for this). Agreed that no 'authority' on the issue has commented; I'm not sure who that would be.
3) Obviously this is a different product from the REA sale of 2006. Aside from the size, the print quality is far inferior, as are colored inks used, and even the design is notably different (including a Hassan advertisement on the Mathewson panel).
4) The guess that this was a newspaper advertisement is interesting... would explain the print quality and faded red coloring (common flaw in cheaper red inks used in the pre-1930s). However, in my opinion, this is absolutely NOT a newspaper add adhered to a thicker card stock backing. The process of trying to glue thin paper stock (which this is not) to a thicker card board backing (this is about 1/16") would induce wrinkles, tears, delamination, misalignment at the edges, and other obvious flaws which are not present on this piece. The die-cut aspects of this piece clearly convey mass production in my opinion, not an at-home art project.
5) To the best of my ability, referencing vintage cardboard on trading cards, the wear, staining, and overall patina of the piece is absolutely old. It's possible this was a reproduction from 30-50 years ago, but this was not produced recently as I don't believe the faded red, staining and oxidation on the piece could be reasonably reproduced. I suppose someone looking to commit fraud could be capable of anything, but I don't see the upside in this case for such an act... the cost to fake this item to a degree that fools someone like me would be exceedingly expensive...I don't see the upside.
6) While I do believe the piece is vintage, I can't say for certain its circa 1910 and it could be a reproduction of some kind from later on. Why a manufacturer would reproduce something like this (costly) is hard to fathom due to it's size and esoteric nature...who would want it? But I have to remain open to this possibility. What I do feel is true is that if this were a reproduction, I'm sure the manufacturer made more than one and somebody should be able to find a historical sale of some kind for the repro so we can know either way. I have tried to find such a sale and been unable.


Personally, I believe this to be genuine piece from 1910 era. Clearly a lower production quality advertisement than the REA example, perhaps meant to be displayed above the Hassan products within the store. It's size and format would make sense for such a thing. The REA example is so large and brightly printed that I don't see it used in close proximity to Hassan products, but rather perhaps displayed elsewhere to drive traffic.

Bottom line, obviously I don't have definitive answers, but this is as much as I know.
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  #11  
Old 09-05-2018, 12:38 PM
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I don't collect this stuff and the person who knows the least about these has probably forgotten more than I'll ever know, but doesn't logic come into play here? If you were going to fake a piece, wouldn't you at least try to get close to the real thing? Given that they aren't even close, is it possible that they could be real? What would be the point in faking something and not even trying to come close to the real thing?
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  #12  
Old 09-05-2018, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
I don't collect this stuff and the person who knows the least about these has probably forgotten more than I'll ever know, but doesn't logic come into play here? If you were going to fake a piece, wouldn't you at least try to get close to the real thing? Given that they aren't even close, is it possible that they could be real? What would be the point in faking something and not even trying to come close to the real thing?
The point in making, or "faking" something somewhat different from an original is just that... it's somewhat different. Hence, it's much harder to determine authenticity when there's nothing to compare it to.
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  #13  
Old 09-05-2018, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huysmans View Post
The point in making, or "faking" something somewhat different from an original is just that... it's somewhat different. Hence, it's much harder to determine authenticity when there's nothing to compare it to.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

exactly!!!!
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  #14  
Old 09-05-2018, 02:51 PM
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As referenced above, the first test administered should be the blacklight test. Very simple to do, and will easily determine whether it is vintage. The cardboard will "fluoresce" (light up) if it's a modern reproduction piece.

After this is done, we can have a far more intelligent conversation as to it's actual age/original purpose/etc. Please let us know how it turns out, as the majority here tend to be skeptical (typically with good reason). My initial belief was that the Hassan piece is an obvious reproduction, while the DiMaggio/Williams piece might just be a different version of the Heritage Poster. Of course if they came from the same consignor, it would certainly cast more doubt.

Would love to be wrong, and eager to see what the blacklight test reveals... Thanks!

Last edited by perezfan; 09-05-2018 at 02:59 PM.
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  #15  
Old 09-05-2018, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
As referenced above, the first test administered should be the blacklight test. Very simple to do, and will easily determine whether it is vintage. The cardboard will "fluoresce" (light up) if it's a modern reproduction piece.
hopefully a black light unrelated to pwcc will be used
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  #16  
Old 09-05-2018, 04:55 PM
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I concur as to the black light test being essential. AH’s should include one for every major piece like this being sold.
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  #17  
Old 09-05-2018, 06:28 PM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is offline
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I suspect that the next sound you hear will be...crickets.
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  #18  
Old 09-05-2018, 10:32 PM
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I did enjoy how he referenced PSA in defense of authenticity. I mean, they never knowing gave a fraudulent grade to any major historical piece of sports memorabilia...
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  #19  
Old 09-06-2018, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckiGuy View Post
I did enjoy how he referenced PSA in defense of authenticity. I mean, they never knowing gave a fraudulent grade to any major historical piece of sports memorabilia...
What's wrong with referencing PSA? PSA, JSA and SGC are pretty much it as far as authenticating things. Our hobby has built them into icons, so how can you knock an ebay seller for referencing them? We have members who won't have an autograph in their collection unless it has PSA or JSA associated with it.

All the giants have fallen at some point. We have a person here in this thread casting stones, who has vehemently supported an autograph 'expert' who has put his name on absolute crap. No authenticator has run the gauntlet unscathed. Doesn't make it right, but that's the nature of our hobby.
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Old 09-06-2018, 12:15 PM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
What's wrong with referencing PSA? PSA, JSA and SGC are pretty much it as far as authenticating things. Our hobby has built them into icons, so how can you knock an ebay seller for referencing them? We have members who won't have an autograph in their collection unless it has PSA or JSA associated with it.

All the giants have fallen at some point. We have a person here in this thread casting stones, who has vehemently supported an autograph 'expert' who has put his name on absolute crap. No authenticator has run the gauntlet unscathed. Doesn't make it right, but that's the nature of our hobby.
Like you're some kind of arbiter for all this! You think these pieces are good, do you? And if you're going to disparage people here, why not stop being chickenshit about it and name names?
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  #21  
Old 09-06-2018, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankphenom View Post
Like you're some kind of arbiter for all this! You think these pieces are good, do you? And if you're going to disparage people here, why not stop being chickenshit about it and name names?
Hank, you're an idiot.
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  #22  
Old 09-06-2018, 02:40 PM
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Hank, you're an idiot.
Well played.
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  #23  
Old 09-06-2018, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
What's wrong with referencing PSA? PSA, JSA and SGC are pretty much it as far as authenticating things. Our hobby has built them into icons, so how can you knock an ebay seller for referencing them? We have members who won't have an autograph in their collection unless it has PSA or JSA associated with it.

All the giants have fallen at some point. We have a person here in this thread casting stones, who has vehemently supported an autograph 'expert' who has put his name on absolute crap. No authenticator has run the gauntlet unscathed. Doesn't make it right, but that's the nature of our hobby.
I think the point was... it is not authenticated by psa so to just throw it in there without a name was just smoke. At least that’s how i took it.
Perhaps I’ll be an arbitrator for once... Hank is a great guy Scott. He is certainly no idiot. You’re better than calling him names.
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Last edited by Forever Young; 09-06-2018 at 02:59 PM.
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  #24  
Old 09-06-2018, 03:18 PM
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It feels a bit weak to me that the seller does not disclose who the 4 collector/investors are who examined the piece. Assuming these are respected names it would only add credibility to the piece unless of course the seller has showed this piece to 15 collector/investors and only 4 thought it was good.

"...we have indeed shown this item to four different people unrelated to PWCC, all of whom educated collector/investors, and one of whom I do consider a memorabilia expert (as does PSA/DNA)."

Not sure how many other ad pieces the seller has listed but if these are the only two and they are both appearing to be reproductions it is probably best to stay away.
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  #25  
Old 09-06-2018, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
Hank, you're an idiot.
Thanks for making my point.
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  #26  
Old 09-06-2018, 07:10 PM
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Brent thanks for your reply but I'm thinking just ignoring my original post and acting like you never saw it would have probably served you better.

You could more or less quite most of the skeptical ones here by posting at the very least the results of a simple blacklight test.

Your silence is saying more than you ever could and completely ignoring the second item I mentioned is saying even more.

Last edited by ruth-gehrig; 09-06-2018 at 07:17 PM.
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  #27  
Old 09-07-2018, 11:11 AM
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The Hassan display was made by Helmar in 2009/2010. At the time they sold for $150/200. Helmar made 40 or so

http://www.net54baseball.com/archive...?t-121734.html
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  #28  
Old 09-07-2018, 11:27 AM
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Thanks to the board! It looks like there's been some good detective work and this is exactly why the message boards are valuable to us.

I'm admittedly humbled by my incorrectness on this topic. The aging on this piece is convincing. I and others have been fooled to say the least; not the first time.

The auction has been ended.

P.S. we rarely post on the boards in an effort to allow the communication to flow freely without pressure from larger companies. So no offense to those members who felt ignored. Not personal. Even now I would have not thought to re-post had a member not emailed me directly to make me aware of the Helmar production (thank you to that member for reaching out).
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  #29  
Old 09-07-2018, 11:37 AM
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Interesting, Jim. The piece auctioned by PWCC and the piece from this prior thread have the exact same dimensions, too.

PWCC showed this piece to several people at the National to determine authenticity. I might suggest that the next time something "different" like this show up, they simply ask for an opinion here. While not everyone here is an "expert", enough eyes would see the thread and an accurate assessment can usually be made in a few days.

edit: just saw Brent's response. Good result in the end.

Last edited by CW; 09-07-2018 at 11:38 AM.
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  #30  
Old 09-07-2018, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Huigens View Post
Thanks to the board! It looks like there's been some good detective work and this is exactly why the message boards are valuable to us.

I'm admittedly humbled by my incorrectness on this topic. The aging on this piece is convincing. I and others have been fooled to say the least; not the first time.

The auction has been ended.

P.S. we rarely post on the boards in an effort to allow the communication to flow freely without pressure from larger companies. So no offense to those members who felt ignored. Not personal. Even now I would have not thought to re-post had a member not emailed me directly to make me aware of the Helmar production (thank you to that member for reaching out).
Right call to have ended it. It happens. Might want to skip getting the opinions of those four collector/investors in the future. What I have learned in short time here, though I have lurked well before I joined, is there are some very astute collectors on this board. Many times posts here have saved me money, time and embarrassment, for which I am grateful.
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  #31  
Old 09-07-2018, 12:16 PM
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hopefully pwcc will receive the same love fest and attaboys for ending this auction as were heaped upon the auction house in the thread about the fake 52 topps mantle that lasted until the auction closed.
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  #32  
Old 09-07-2018, 12:18 PM
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Thanks CW. Got stuck on a two hour conference call this morning and figured I would look around. Look at the different examples of the display. Tried to find what the differences were. The 3 piece display and the Philadelphia Magazine/Paper ad both had one thing in common that this example did not have. I went back and reviewed other displays and posters from Hassan and they also were the same and different from this piece.

Every item Hassan made never had a finished lower edge. It was always blank. This item had a finish to it. This display also closed in the top of the display by the bats which the magazine/newspaper ad did not do so it was not a direct copy of that medium.

About 5 search pages in, I saw the Net54 line. Funny, neither Mark or I who commented on both threads forgot we had looked at this before.
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  #33  
Old 09-07-2018, 12:34 PM
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Default Hassan

So, I will throw in my .02 cents (no change required)

I bought one of these several years ago, well before Helmar was in business making some of these. I did ue MY blacklight (not PWCC's ) and it did not fluoresce. I am NOT saying anything about authenticy, I paid very little as I thought it was a cool display piece. I can confirm that it s pretty good quality and upon looking at it through a 10x loupe, I do not see any typical "dot matrix" patterns whatsoever....

Question away as I still do have it in my possession.

Thanks,
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  #34  
Old 09-07-2018, 12:55 PM
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My initial gut reaction on this is that it is a more modern piece OR maybe, a newspaper type piece from the past. The lithography looks like it does on some / many reproduction pieces I see. It screams reproduction. It might be real, but it screams something different. (at least to me, the novice)
I think it was good PWCC ended the auction to have it further evaluated. Kudo's to them for that.

ps....still not a bad looking piece for what it is, not completely unlike the large Horner composites repros that can go for a few thousand dollars. No idea on value of these.
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Last edited by Leon; 09-07-2018 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 09-07-2018, 12:59 PM
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My initial gut reaction on this is that it is a more modern piece OR maybe, a newspaper type piece from the past. The lithography looks like it does on some / many reproduction pieces I see. It screams reproduction. It might be real, but it screams something different. (at least to me, the novice)
I think it was good PWCC ended the auction to have it further evaluated. Kudo's to them for that.

ps....still not a bad looking piece for what it is, not unlike the large Horner composites repros that can go for a few thousand dollars. No idea on value of these.
I agree LL. Here's my initial thought: If they are fake (which for all intents and purposes I am in agreement) wouldn't they be all over the place?? I've seen maybe 2-3 in the last several years which lead me to think they were maybe some kind of counter display....
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Old 09-07-2018, 01:29 PM
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I agree LL. Here's my initial thought: If they are fake (which for all intents and purposes I am in agreement) wouldn't they be all over the place?? I've seen maybe 2-3 in the last several years which lead me to think they were maybe some kind of counter display....
Large repros are more difficult to make? I dunno
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Old 09-07-2018, 05:29 PM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is offline
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I agree LL. Here's my initial thought: If they are fake (which for all intents and purposes I am in agreement) wouldn't they be all over the place?? I've seen maybe 2-3 in the last several years which lead me to think they were maybe some kind of counter display....
Why would they have to be all over the place? How much, other than his time, do you think the maker of these has invested in them? He could walk one of these into a show, find someone to give him a couple of grand for it, and he's back out and thinking of what other fakes he can make. If he can do that with several of these, all the better. Eventually, the buyers will realize they have been screwed when they are rejected by auction houses, and they will end up on eBay to recoup at least a few dollars by those willing to take a chance or maybe even just have a nice fantasy piece to put on the wall. I've had autograph experts tell me that their very first look at a piece is usually the best, that an opinion that would be rendered right then is almost always confirmed by further study and technology. I'm certainly not the expert on memorabilia that some of the big boys that have seen just about everything are, but I have seen a lot of old stuff over the years, and neither one of these pieces looked right even at first glance. Real aging has a look to it, fake aging has another look. Real distress and wear looks real, it's not uniform, it's a corner that has been exposed when the rest of the piece was covered, a tear in taking a poster off a wall at some point, it's haphazard. Even staining should normally only be in one area and the rest should be fine, not all stained up with numerous blemishes like the back of this Hassan piece. What was it lying in, mayonnaise? Memorabilia can be tough, a lot of things just don't have many exemplars around. The real one of these--owned by my good buddy and legendary collector Ron Menchine, by the way, is the only one known. How can that be, you say? I don't know, but I do know that I've handled, and still own, some things that are the only ones I've ever seen in 40 years of doing this. Bottom line is that the only solid rule to go by here is the one we've all ignored at some point over the years and hopefully learned our lesson: "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is."
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Old 09-07-2018, 05:35 PM
ruth-gehrig ruth-gehrig is online now
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Thanks to the board! It looks like there's been some good detective work and this is exactly why the message boards are valuable to us.

I'm admittedly humbled by my incorrectness on this topic. The aging on this piece is convincing. I and others have been fooled to say the least; not the first time.

The auction has been ended.

P.S. we rarely post on the boards in an effort to allow the communication to flow freely without pressure from larger companies. So no offense to those members who felt ignored. Not personal. Even now I would have not thought to re-post had a member not emailed me directly to make me aware of the Helmar production (thank you to that member for reaching out).
Excellent job Brent but you're only half way there. I'm not going to stop reminding you about the other sign you still have up that is FAKE that keeps getting ignored. It needs to be pulled as well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1941-Louisv...EAAOSw5Z5biZKh

As reference the last time a similar fake was sold was out of Indiana by acofind on ebay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-LOU...AAAOSwYutax64C
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Old 09-09-2018, 09:26 AM
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The best we're gonna get?
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Old 09-09-2018, 12:02 PM
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Wow... Surprised to see it's still listed as of 10 AM Pacific / 1 PM EDT on Sunday.

I would think that the nominal amount of money they'd make on this piece pales in comparison to the ramifications of selling a known fake. Hopefully they'll do the right thing here for everyone's benefit (especially their own).
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Old 09-09-2018, 12:25 PM
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Here's another "beauty" from Acofind….

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-19...wAAOSw7p5adNH9

Someone blew up the DiMaggio Wheaties Panel, to create a "Window Sign Poster". But it's just the same old washed out colors and phony aging that we've all seen before.

And gee.... look in the background in the upper-right. What a coincidence!
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Old 09-10-2018, 08:46 PM
ruth-gehrig ruth-gehrig is online now
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What a complete joke!!

PWCC knowingly sold this garbage

https://m.ebay.com/itm/1941-Louisvil...EAAOSw5Z5biZKh
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Old 11-28-2018, 10:25 AM
sirraffles sirraffles is offline
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Default NOT a Helmar Brewing item at all.

This isn't a Helmar item and we don't make reproductions as I am far too busy making original art cards for our collectors. I think I saw an ad in SCD years ago offering this sign; probably the last time that I actually looked through the magazine. Charles
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Old 11-28-2018, 10:33 AM
sirraffles sirraffles is offline
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Just pointing out that Helmar did NOT make this sign. Charles
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Old 11-28-2018, 02:44 PM
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My friend John has one of the large ones displayed in his antique shop in Monterey, CA. He's had it for many years, and simply assumed it is fake.

Mark, I've been watching the "window sign poster" of Dimaggio on eBay for awhile, and I never got a good feeling about it.

Last edited by Chris Counts; 11-28-2018 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 08-03-2019, 10:26 PM
ruth-gehrig ruth-gehrig is online now
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Since you consider yourself somewhat descent in peddling fake signs Brent, your latest shouldn't be surprising

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F143344767107

And since your criminal defense attorney is a fan of Ty Cobb ask if he wants to bid
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Old 08-03-2019, 10:38 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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It feels a bit weak to me that the seller does not disclose who the 4 collector/investors are who examined the piece. Assuming these are respected names it would only add credibility to the piece unless of course the seller has showed this piece to 15 collector/investors and only 4 thought it was good.

"...we have indeed shown this item to four different people unrelated to PWCC, all of whom educated collector/investors, and one of whom I do consider a memorabilia expert (as does PSA/DNA)."

Not sure how many other ad pieces the seller has listed but if these are the only two and they are both appearing to be reproductions it is probably best to stay away.
they dont name the names of the dentists when 4 out of 5 recommend whatever product like trident gum.....they dont even name the one dentist that opposed the product
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Old 08-05-2019, 12:02 AM
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Since you consider yourself somewhat descent in peddling fake signs Brent, your latest shouldn't be surprising

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F143344767107

And since your criminal defense attorney is a fan of Ty Cobb ask if he wants to bid
Oh for goodness' sake.... not again! This one has been around the block so many times. It just keeps re-appearing like a bad herpes rash.

I cannot believe (in the midst of all that's going on) that PWCC listed this blatantly phony Cobb Sign, and that they're still running with it. On second thought I guess I can actually believe it, given the source.

Jeff.... If you are seeing this, please have your client take it down ASAP, before another person is duped by these fakes. They need to terminate the auction, and hand this piece of crap over to law enforcement before it surfaces yet again.

Even if they wanted to sell it properly and clearly list it as a "repro", it will eventually re-appear somewhere as being authentic. It needs to be confiscated. How could they even think of listing this piece, after pretending to be humbled by the last set of fakes? It does not appear they're learning much from their past and plentiful "mistakes".
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Old 08-05-2019, 08:22 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Oh for goodness' sake.... not again! This one has been around the block so many times. It just keeps re-appearing like a bad herpes rash.

I cannot believe (in the midst of all that's going on) that PWCC listed this blatantly phony Cobb Sign, and that they're still running with it. On second thought I guess I can actually believe it, given the source.

Jeff.... If you are seeing this, please have your client take it down ASAP, before another person is duped by these fakes. They need to terminate the auction, and hand this piece of crap over to law enforcement before it surfaces yet again.

Even if they wanted to sell it properly and clearly list it as a "repro", it will eventually re-appear somewhere as being authentic. It needs to be confiscated. How could they even think of listing this piece, after pretending to be humbled by the last set of fakes? It does not appear they're learning much from their past and plentiful "mistakes".
Dont worry Jeff is doing everything he can to help the hobby
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Old 08-05-2019, 04:45 PM
bobfreedman bobfreedman is online now
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I emailed Brent and he removed it immediately, I am certain no one took the initiative to do this because it is much easier to get mad and gripe about it than emailing him and letting him know. I dont believe he did anything improper here.
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