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#1
12-18-2002, 03:13 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: warshawlaw
There has been a lot of discussion about whether a seller can reasonably sell things "as is, no returns." Many people have come down hard on those who follow these processes. Before we crack back on Joe Blow selling a few cards on ebay, let's take into account that many of the auction houses flatly refuse returns on items (I reviewed my catalogue collection and found the following: Leland's: "ALL SALES ARE FINAL. NO RETURNS", Grey Flannel: "ALL SALES ARE FINAL, NO RETURNS", About Time Auctions: "Professionally graded cards can NOT be returned."). I'm not favorably disposed towards these no return auctions, but I don't begrudge someone the right to state such terms clearly and I think it is unfair to treat people who do so as though they are committing some kind of crime or immoral act. 
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#4
12-18-2002, 03:46 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: Hankron
Adam, the issue about 'as is' was when forgeries were being sold. Irrelevant to Leland's or MastroNet's return policy, they have to give a refund if they sell a forgery. In fact, I'm nearly certain that if MastroNet sold you a counterfeit T206 Honus Wagner that they would offer a complete refund and an apology even if it was a year later.
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#5
12-18-2002, 06:10 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: MW
Scott, David, Robert -- all correct.
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#6
12-18-2002, 07:09 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: Bob
is the language "all sales final, absolutely no returns" because sometimes some of the auction houses like Lelands offer very small and out of focus scans and it is hard to detect alteration, i.e. trimming. Before you rush to say "well you knew it in the first place, it's your own fault," yes, you are right. But it seems to me that when a card is described as EX or EXMT there is an implied warranty that the card has not been altered and regardless of any disclaimer, there should be a return allowed if the alteration is verified by an impartial professional grader.
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#7
12-18-2002, 07:20 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: leon
I think reputable auction houses would take a return under that circumstance. I also feel that that is a serious mistake (missing a major problem). Even Verkman gave me an immediate refund on an obvious, undisputed trim (no comments on the word "trim"
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#8
12-18-2002, 07:21 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: runscott
You have to use your common sense and deal with the auction houses you trust. We know, for instance, that Leland's does not have the expertise to judge if cards are trimmed - well, if you buy from them I wouldn't want to hear any crying afterward. And if you buy an "ex" lot from a major auction house and it ends up getting an average grade of "vg", well, we all know that grading is somewhat objective, so tuff luck. If you buy from Festberg I feel that you deserve whatever you get. If you buy from Verkman, you already know there is a good chance that "EX" really means that the bottom 1/8" of the card will be missing.
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#10
12-18-2002, 08:39 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: Tom
and I can speak from experience with Mastronet. Actually Mastro and Steinbach.......I bought a lot of all 4 T206 Cobbs when I was activly pursuing my set of T206's. They were described as Greenback (G/VG with big stain on back) and the rest as VGEX to EX and relatively clean. As not one of the 'premier' lots, they didn't have super huge photos but they all looked clean and neat. After receiving the lot, it was clear that the bat off shoulder pose was CLEARLY trimmed and should have been noted as such. The others were EXACTLY as described and actually a hair better conditioned. I called them and talked to Brian Marren I believe (maybe not, don't know now) but I told them that I didn't want to return the whole lot (and that wasn't really offered) but that I wouldn't have paid $2K for the lot if I'd known the bat off was trimmed. After discussing it, they eventually gave me like $250-$300 or so of a refund and we went on from there. I was impressed and have basically won something in every auction since (minus one or two). The Green pose graded a 3 and the other two graded 5's so I didn't do too bad anyway.........but they had a customer for life.
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#12
12-18-2002, 08:55 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: Bob
<<We know, for instance, that Leland's does not have the expertise to judge if cards are trimmed - well, if you buy from them I wouldn't want to hear any crying afterward.>>
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#13
12-18-2002, 09:06 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: runscott
And I don't have a problem with an occasional altered card slipping through, especially when I know the auction house will take care of it. But some of the auction houses either lack the expertise to prevent problems from slipping through, or they knowingly auction altered cards. Fortunately we know what to expect from all the auction houses, so it's not much of a problem - just pick and choose accordingly.
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#14
12-19-2002, 12:53 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: warshawlaw
When I returned a lot to Lipset due to what I felt was overgrading he issued a full refund promptly, but with a note asking me not to bid again. No working with me, no discussion, nothing, just my money and a bar from future auctions with no explanation offered (in response to a post I made here about it, he later emailed to tell me that he told me not to bid again because we did not see eye to eye on grading--but it was one lot of three that I've bought from him in the past, and I was happy with the other lots, so I don't know, I suppose I'm the sort who people think is baring his teeth when he smiles . . . Maybe I should go to charm school.
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#15
12-19-2002, 01:48 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: runscott
Grading is "subjective", so if a card is off by one grade I wouldn't expect a refund; two grades and I would complain. In my case there was an alteration to the card (small pin-hole), which is a completely different issue. There is nothing subjective about alteration, and any auction house worth their salt will issue a refund, which Lew Lipset did for me. If I bought a card from him as "ex" and it turned out to be, in my opinion, "vg-ex", I wouldn't say a word.
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#16
12-20-2002, 12:46 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: warshawlaw
multiple creases on vg-ex cards, etc. I agree that grading is subjective enough that I can expect a one-grade variance (hell, I always bid assuming the cards are a grade below the listings, with any auction), and I did follow that parameter on the other lots. For example the Colgan's Cobb I won was listed as a grade higher than it really was, as SGC agreed. I did not gripe about that; it was within "tolerance" (as we construction lawyers like to say).
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#17
12-21-2002, 12:41 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: B C Daniels
Could be "Tutor" as in Sunny aka Albert,the little sneaky blond kind who keeps buying quality cards and posting info on hewre sometimes."tor" has a few black & whilte E-97's I want to complete my set.
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#18
12-21-2002, 04:45 PM
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let's not get too self-righteous here
Posted By: Julie Vognar
I've returned a card to Lipset a month after the auction. A T207 with a dead white border, and no shellack.
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)regards
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