New challenge....try collecting the various T-brand sub-sets of the T206 Super-Prints

[tedzan]

In recent years, I have acquired many of the front-back combos of the six T206 subjects that Scot Reader has identified (in
his book.."Inside T206") as the Super-Prints (SP). These SP are usually referred to as 350/460 subjects. However, these six
subjects are actually quite unique, in that they are in a class of their own by being both 350-only subjects & 460-only sub-
jects (as Scot Reader has so aptly described them).
Each of these SP are found with as many as 24 different T206 backs. Initially, American Lithographic (ALC) printed these six
subjects when they started producing their 350-only series; and, are found with most of the 350 series backs. Subsequently,
ALC extended these SP cards into the 460-only series when they first printed the SOVEREIGN 460 series backs. The SP cards
are found with most of the 460 series backs. EXCEPT....the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and the UZIT backs are NO-PRINTS.

Circa Summer of 1910 these SP cards were printed with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (with frame) back........







I will list the backs that these cards can be found with in a subsequent post here.

Next post here will show these SP cards with the extremely rare 1910 COUPON back.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Very, very tough....printed circa Summer of 1910.....it's my opinion that this issue of the COUPON brand was never meant to be inserted in cigarette
packs. Instead, they were promotional premiums for this new American Tobacco Co. brand which were included in a box containing these cigarettes.
I base this on two factors.........

(1)....Besides being premiums, T-cards served the purpose of being cigarette pack stiffiners. However, these "cards" were printed on thin cardboard.

(2)....It's my understanding that no (1910) "COUPON" labelled cigarette packs have been found. But, boxes that contained "COUPON" cigarettes have
been reported.






.....

..





More of my Super-Prints will soon be posted.........why not show us your cards. These identical six subjects were also printed
in subsequent issues after the T206 issue, feel free to post those, too.


I would like to thank three Net54 members who provided me some nice deals in acquiring these 1910 COUPON cards.

TED Z

[Cardboard Junkie]

Aloha! Wow Ted those are some nice cards. You must have one heck of a set going! I collect T-206's and I have always felt fortunate to have 1 coupon back (I don't collect diff backs). My one coupon back is a Chance. Thanks for the post those cards are breathtaking. You seem to really know these cards and I would like your opinion.....Do you consider the cobbs with cobb back a part of t-206 or do you consider it a separate issue? Mahalo once again for your post. dave

[npa589]

Ted:

I can't thank you enough for the information you have provided me, without knowing it, over the last 6 months or so. I only started my involvement in this hobby in January, and have learned a lot about the idiosyncracies within the creation of the T206 set, and all of it's quirks.

Is there a place where I can go to get more specific information as to when they were produced, and what players/variations belong to specific time-frames of each card's production?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Aloha! Wow Ted those are some nice cards. You must have one heck of a set going! I collect T-206's and I have always felt fortunate to have 1 coupon back (I don't collect diff backs). My one coupon back is a Chance. Thanks for the post those cards are breathtaking. You seem to really know these cards and I would like your opinion.....Do you consider the cobbs with cobb back a part of t-206 or do you consider it a separate issue? Mahalo once again for your post. dave

I DO & DO NOT consider the red Cobb with the Ty Cobb back as a T206 issue.

1st.....Yes, it was printed and issued in the Spring of 1910 as a promotional premium for the new Ty Cobb Granulated Cut Plug Tobacco brand. It has all the characteristics
of a T206....the front is American Litho's "signature picture" of Cobb, it's a white bordered, brown captioned card, printed and issued circa March 1910, and has a T206-like back.

2nd.....The back is unique in that it advertises Factory #33 (no T206 has this Factory #). If I recall correctly, this Factory was located in Reidsville, NC and produced the
F. R. Penn Smoking & Plug Tobacco. So, in this respect, I do have some reservations calling this card a T206. Having said that, I lean towards classifying it as a T206.

In any event, it's my understanding that only 15 Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb cards are known. Eventually, I expect that more of them may surface from the Georgia area (where Ty
Cobb was a popular dude).


Regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

I refer you to Scot Reader's well-researched and well written book...."Inside T206".

It is available on-line.


Regards,

TED Z

[DixieBaseball]

1910 COUPON (T213-1) super-prints
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very, very tough....printed circa Summer of 1910.....it's my opinion that this issue of the COUPON brand was never meant to be inserted in cigarette
packs. Instead, they were promotional premiums for this new American Tobacco Co. brand which were included in a box containing these cigarettes.
I base this on two factors.........

(1)....Besides being premiums, T-cards served the purpose of being cigarette pack stiffiners. However, these "cards" were printed on thin cardboard.

(2)....It is my understanding that no (1910) "COUPON" labelled cigarette pack has been found. However, boxes with "COUPON" cigarettes are known
to exist.

Ted - Love those SP's & great Picks of your Type 1 Coupons ! I was doing some research of the Population Reports for SGC & PSA and noticed that the Type 1 average per player is around 3 cards per player in the set of 68. (The range can be from 1-6 on average depending on player, but my guess is some are re-graded duplicates where the cert was never taken out of circulation, so the average may be a little lower than 3 cards per player) With this being said, I can buy into your argument that these cards were never meant for cigarette packs as that seems plausible due to how thin and few there are... I can't imagine them surviving very well just being put into or pulled from a pack as it makes no sense to me that they should have ever gone into a pack. Were the Pirate Cigarettes ever put into a pack or promotional ? Also, what about Red Cross Type 1 & 2's ? For scale sake, there are about 100 Pirate baseball cards graded and 200 Type 1 Coupon's graded. If Pirate cards are 1 of 1 and most are possibly unique, it puts an idea of just how rare the Coupon's are in comparison.

P.S. Great chatting with you at the National ! Here is a scan you may appreciate...

[tedzan]

This is not certain; but, I would hypothesize that these super-prints (SP) with the SOVEREIGN 460 backs are American Lithographic Co.'s (ALC) initial intent to
extend specific T206 subjects in the 350 series into ALC's 460 series. ALC selected 66 subjects from the 350 series (as is evident by the SOVEREIGN 350 backs
that were printed with the apple green ink) to be continued into the 460 series. Of the intended 66 subjects, 63 of them were printed with a variety of the 460
series T206 backs.









NOTE .... the SOVEREIGN 350 Hal Chase backs printed with the "apple green" ink. All SOVEREIGN 350 versions of the six SP cards were printed with this color.


P.S. .... For those who have asked me, the SP cards with SOVEREIGN 460 backs are considerably tougher than the regular 46 subjects in this set's 460-only
series.

SGC pop reports of the SP with SOVEREIGN 460 backs support this contention with respect to these three comparisons......

Typical population #'s of the SP SOVEREIGN 350 cards are 5 - 8

while, the typical SP SOVEREIGN 460 population #'s are 0 - 2

Furthermore, typical population #'s of the regular 46 subjects in this set's 460-only series range from 4 - 40

When you compare the SP SOVEREIGN 460 pop #'s with other 460 series backs, the SP SOVEREIGN 460 pop #'s are comparable to that of T206's with the
LENOX back.


If anyone can post the PSA pop reports on these T206's, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

TED Z

[aquarius31]

Hi Ted,
This is a great thread. It's interesting that you note that the 6 SP's with Sovereign 460 are comparable to Lenox backs. Here's the Chase dark cap with Lenox back.

George

[tedzan]

Hey George

Really great Hal Chase Lenox.

I'll match you with my Chase / LENOX

You win....your's is nicer






Thanks,

TED Z

[atx840]

Nothing special

Chase & Cobb

[tedzan]

Jeremy

Gee, we certainly covered a lot of "bases" and a lot of people in our conversations at the National.

Regarding your ? about the T215 PIRATE cards, they were in packs.






TED Z

[Mikehealer]

Here is a modest start on Evers, a long way to go.

[tedzan]

Really great start on Evers, other than the red HINDU card of him, you have it made.

Great chatting with you at the National. Incidentally, Bobby O' made me do it


TED Z

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Ted,
The Drum might be a bit tough too.....
Be well Brian


PS Nice cards Mike....

[tedzan]

Brian

Quite true....but then, you never know when Ron Oser may have a 3rd find of DRUM's

Hey guy, I was expecting to see you at the National....were you there ?

Regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

You're teasing me guy....my three "Breit" Ted's are looking for their long lost COUPON "cousin"....let's make a deal






TED Z

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Ted,
I missed the National due to family obligations.... Should be in Baltimore.
Be well Brian


PS Thanks to good friends... I picked up 5-6 cards.

[tedzan]

Great....hope to see you in Baltimore next year. We really had a great time there last year.

Caught an exciting ballgame at Camden Yards, checked out the Babe Ruth museum, and sold (and traded) a lot of cards at the show.

Best regards,

TED Z

[Mikehealer]

Ted enjoyed visiting with you in Chicago as well. Bobby's a real joker.
I was thinking the BL 460 was going to be the toughest.

[caramelcard]

sc00295dcd.jpgsc002968aa.jpg

[tedzan]

BROAD LEAF 460 or red HINDU are quite comparable in scarcity for Evers.

SGC pop reports indicates that they have graded one of each.

I don't know what PSA pop reports show on these two backs for Evers.

And, as Brian pointed out, DRUM can be as tough.


TED Z

[Mikehealer]

Ted all three are probably out of my reach no matter which one is toughest, I would be happy with just one.

By the way nice Chance, Robert.

[tedzan]

Rob A. ..... Neat blank back, thanks for displaying it.

Currently, here are all my Chance (yellow portrait) cards. Also, I had a SWEET CAPORAL 460, factory #30 (which I sold in Cooperstown).





..PIEDMONT 460, f42..







Hey guys, let's see some more of any of your T206 super-prints....especially the tough f/b combos ?



TED Z

[t206hof]

Ted, very intresting and Thanks for all the valuable information on the elusive Super Prints with scarcer backs. If you don't mind would it be possible for you to put up a list of top 10 in order of toughness? Thanks in advance. Dennis.

[tedzan]

Dennis

I hope the following lists are what you are looking for regarding the tougher backs of the six super-prints.
The order that I have listed them is not precise in terms of their scarcity; however, it is quite close.

Chance (yellow portrait)
------------------------

BROAD LEAF 460
Red HINDU
DRUM
COUPON (T213-1)
LENOX
SOVEREIGN 460
BROAD LEAF 350
PIEDMONT 460 factory 42
CAROLINA BRIGHTS
CYCLE 460
EPDG
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)


Chase (blue portrait)
---------------------

Red HINDU
DRUM
COUPON (T213-1)
LENOX
BROAD LEAF 350
SOVEREIGN 460
PIEDMONT 460 factory 42
CAROLINA BRIGHTS
CYCLE 460
EPDG
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)


Chase (dark cap)
-----------------

Red HINDU
DRUM
COUPON (T213-1)
LENOX
PIEDMONT 460 factory 42
SOVEREIGN 460
CAROLINA BRIGHTS
EPDG
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)


Cobb (red portrait)
-------------------

BROAD LEAF 460
DRUM
COUPON (T213-1)
LENOX
SOVEREIGN 460
EPDG
CYCLE 460
CAROLINA BRIGHTS
PIEDMONT 460 factory 42
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)


Evers (Chicago on shirt)
------------------------

BROAD LEAF 460
Red HINDU
DRUM
COUPON (T213-1)
SOVEREIGN 460
BROAD LEAF 350
PIEDMONT 460 factory 42
CAROLINA BRIGHTS
CYCLE 460
EPDG
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)


Mathewson (dark cap)
----------------------

BROAD LEAF 460
Red HINDU
DRUM
COUPON (T213-1)
SOVEREIGN 460
PIEDMONT 460 factory 42
CAROLINA BRIGHTS
CYCLE 460
EPDG
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)


Others may have different opinions on this, and that's fine.


TED Z

[aquarius31]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey George

Really great Hal Chase Lenox.

I'll match you with my Chase / LENOX

You win....your's is nicer


Thanks,

TED Z

Hi Ted,
Sadly the Chase dark cap Lenox is trimmed but still a great card. Love seeing all your SP's with the tough backs! Take care.

George

[shaunsteig]

Jaw-dropping collections shown here, thanks to all for sharing.
Well at least I've got one that made Ted's list...



(the dark cap Tolstoi didn't make the list of rarer backs but I figured might as well show it as part of the backs set for that card's front)

[t206hof]

Thanks, Ted, that's exactly what I wanted to see. My only Super Super. Thanks again. Dennis.

[tedzan]

................ PIEDMONT 460, factory #42 ................


Looking for a red HINDU....also, hoping to find a BROAD LEAF 460 (if it was printed).


TED Z

[atx840]

Ted that is an impressive Chase run.



High Res

[tedzan]

Looking good, looking good....very impressive array of my Chase guys.

Thanks for re-arranging them "alpha-back-tically" across the screen.


Best regards,

TED Z

[sando69]

actually started this project in the late '70's, then resurrected it a couple of years ago.
a special thanks goes out to chris browne for this compilation!

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by sando69

actually started this project in the late '70's, then resurrected it a couple of years ago.
a special thanks goes out to chris browne for this compilation!

Mark - I am seeing Red ! HOLY Cow, that is impressive.

Chris - Ditto...

[tedzan]

Fantastic array of red Cobb's.

I'm curious, which of these backs were the toughest for you ?

Thanks for sharing these with us.

And, thanks also to Chris.


TED Z

[peterose4hof]

I would like to nominate this for "Most Informative Thread of the Year"!!!

Thank you Ted for ignoring your detractors and continuing to share your vast knowledge of "The Monster" with us all!

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by peterose4hof

I would like to nominate this for "Most Informative Thread of the Year"!!!

Thank you Ted for ignoring your detractors and continuing to share your vast knowledge of "The Monster" with us all!

Yes agree, Ted thanks I really enjoy your T206 stories….

[E93]

WOW!!!
Phenomenal group of Cobbs!!!!
Thanks for sharing!
JimB

[ullmandds]

WOW, Mark...that's awesome!!!!! Between ebay and the next Goodwin auction...you could be a few closer to completion!

[peterose4hof]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Yes agree, Ted thanks I really enjoy your T206 stories….

Much like this thread from Ted Z, John (wonkaticket) has had some "legendary" threads in recent history. For those who are new to the board and may have missed them I have provided links below to a couple that should not be missed. John has amassed the type of collection that makes almost all of us, me included, drool excessively. He is one of the most knowledgeable members we have here at net54 and I look forward to each and every time he shares with the group. Bearing in mind that spirited debate and varying opinions are what fuels this board, I wish the quest for truth would outdistance the desire to prove another member wrong or make them feel foolish and therefore less willing to share.

All the best!


“Baby Got Backs”
http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=137059

“For The Fellow Obak Fans”
http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=136762

[Mikehealer]

Wow Mark that is impressive. Thanks for sharing.

[sando69]

for all the nice comments!
ted- of course the carolina brights & lenox are probably the most difficult, but i was able to acquire these almost 30 years ago...
our very own rob d. (thanks rob!) has very graciously provided a scan of "the trader speaks" auction page from which my lenox example was won...
humorous to note that the purported condition of yester-year, "vg+/mint," translates today as "trimmed."

[cfc1909]

Sando the Cobbs are very nice thanks for sharing.


Ted it appears in post #30 that the Carolina Brights, Old Mill and Piedmont 350 all have the same front also it appears the El Principe De Gales and Tolstoi have the same front.

[wonkaticket]

Thanks for the kind words Chris. I need to update images in those posts they sort of lost thunder with no pics. I updated my imageevent sometime ago so sorry for the little red "x".

I will try to update later with better pics.

Cheers,

John

[Abravefan11]

Here's a pair of well loved blue Chase Sovereign's.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by peterose4hof

Much like this thread from Ted Z, John (wonkaticket) has had some "legendary" threads in recent history. For those who are new to the board and may have missed them I have provided links below to a couple that should not be missed. John has amassed the type of collection that makes almost all of us, me included, drool excessively. He is one of the most knowledgeable members we have here at net54 and I look forward to each and every time he shares with the group. Bearing in mind that spirited debate and varying opinions are what fuels this board, I wish the quest for truth would outdistance the desire to prove another member wrong or make them feel foolish and therefore less willing to share.

All the best!


“Baby Got Backs”
http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=137059

“For The Fellow Obak Fans”
http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=136762

+1
The cuts in my eyes are still healing from all the sharp corners that he's shown from his collection!

[tedzan]

Here are the 30 different brands (1909-1919) that this card of Frank Chance has been confirmed with.






AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)
BROAD LEAF 350
BROAD LEAF 460
CAROLINA BRIGHTS
"COUPON" (T213-1) .... 1910
COUPON (T213-2) ...... 1914
COUPON (T213-3) ...... 1919
CYCLE 350
CYCLE 460
DRUM 350
EL PRINCIPE de GALES
red HINDU
LENOX
OLD MILL
PIEDMONT 350 factory 25
PIEDMONT 460 factory 25
PIEDMONT 460 factory 42
"PIRATE" (T215) ...... 1912
POLAR BEAR
RED CROSS (T215-1) ...... 1910-12
RED CROSS (T215-2) ...... 1912-13
SOVEREIGN 350
SOVEREIGN 460
SWEET CAPORAL 350, factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 350, factory 30
SWEET CAPORAL 460, factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 460, factory 30
SWEET CAPORAL 460, factory 42 (overprinted) .... scroll over Factory 30
SWEET CAPORAL 460, factory 42
TOLSTOI


T-Rex TED

[tedzan]

I like to refer to the red Cobb as American Lithographic's "signature picture". Here are the 27 different
brands (1909-1919) that this card of Ty Cobb has been confirmed with.







AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)
BROAD LEAF 460
CAROLINA BRIGHTS
"COUPON" (T213-1) .... 1910
COUPON (T213-2) ...... 1914
COUPON (T213-3) ...... 1919
CYCLE 350
CYCLE 460
DRUM 350
EL PRINCIPE de GALES
LENOX
OLD MILL
PIEDMONT 350 factory 25
PIEDMONT 460 factory 25
PIEDMONT 460 factory 42
POLAR BEAR
SOVEREIGN 350
SOVEREIGN 460
SWEET CAPORAL 350, factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 350, factory 30
SWEET CAPORAL 460, factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 460, factory 30
SWEET CAPORAL 460, factory 42 (overprinted) .... scroll over Factory 30
SWEET CAPORAL 460, factory 42
TOLSTOI
VICTORY (T214) ...... 1914-15
"TY COBB" (Cut Plug Smoking Tobacco) .... 1910


T-Rex TED

[Big Six]

I just noticed that one of the Coupon Chase cards has him listed on the front as N.Y. National...he was a Giant in 1919...how could that Coupon be considered a t206??? Feel free to expose me for the fool I am...and thanks.

[tedzan]

These latest lists include all the tobacco backs that these six subjects are found with across the various tobacco issues from 1909 thru 1919.

Regards,

TED Z