Lilliputian Scanners

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Posted By: Hankron 

As many know, the seller and his wares have a variety of issues that don't need rehashing, but this was a detail I found amusing. Compare the the lower cut/corners of the back and front pictures of the T206 Cobb. They appear to be two different cards. In particular, one front lower corner is rounded, while on the back it is sharp ...One will find that many of his card backs are simularly cropped by the scan, while the fronts are not.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2750861441&category=31719

Naturaly, my posts have to have a moral. First, it is notable that the above inconsistancy could be detected by an observant person who knows little to nothing about T206s or even baseball cards. I submit that my mom could look at those two scans and form a reasonable opinion (Though first one would have to convince her why she should be wasting her time staring at pictures of baseball cards on a computer screen) ... Second, the funky but unmentioned cut of a card is often a quick way to identify many fakes. No matter how beautiful the ungraded 33 Goudey Ruth, if has the funky cut of a scissors, and the sellers says something on the order of 'has only normal edge wear' or doesn't mention the cut at all, stay away ... Third, doesn't it make the current bidders wonder why the seller can't fit an entire T206 in the scan, especially when it's a featured auction? Wouldn't someone about to bid on a high end Ty Cobb card email the seller and say, "Would it be possble to see the entire card?" .... Fourth, notice that all of the previous three had anything to do with being a baseball card expert or expert on early lithography or card stock historian, but had everything to do with being a keen eyed, logical and careful person.

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Posted By: George

I appreciate you taking the time to point these things out. I have learned a lot on this board and thank everyone for sharing. Also according to a previous lesson on this board I saw the words: All sales final! Keep up the good work, everyone. George

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Posted By: Scott Polin

Everything Prizesports is selling is fake? All agree??

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Posted By: runscott

But the CJ's are definitely fake. Also, to add to David's list of "bewares", any time a seller says that he is liquidating an estate and the cards (usually all rare) were found in a very old cigar box...stay away.

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Posted By: BcD

"wedding "card??? funny how the alleged owner of it is not registered to defer responsibility!

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Thanks David for the heads up on this. Like the rest of us on the board, I sincerely appreciate the hard work you put in trying to keep the hobby free from evil. I wonder if prizesports from Ohio?

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Posted By: runscott

They are so simple to spot just from the scans. If people like "Harleyman" and "Prizesports" didn't take their money, someone else would.

Also, it's the dumb selling to the stupid in many cases. A little research goes a long way - check a seller's feedback and in some instances you will find praise from the ebayer who sold him the reprint sets to begin with!

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Posted By: Hankron

I learned, and probably many others, learned how to spot the fake Cracker Jacks from Frank Ward.

For those who don't know of Cracker Jack theory: There is no white ink in the Cracker Jacks. Instead, the white of a player's jersey or the borders (for examples) is simply the white color of the card stock. Meaning, to 'create' white on a card they didn't apply any ink. This means that the white of the border and the whitest areas in the image should be the same. And if, for example, the bottom of the image area is white it should blend seemlessly into the white border. On many reprints, the border is a distinctly different color than the white in the image. This is most noticable when the white of the image (the bottom of a player's jersey, for example) is in direct contact with the border. On some cards, this difference can be more difficult to detect.

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Posted By: Mike

I looked at the T-206 Cobb and thought the same thing as runscott. What am I missing here?

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Posted By: runscott

If 9 out of 10 cards someone is selling can be positively id'd as fakes, then you can bet that #10 is a fake also, even if it looks real.

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Posted By: Hankron

The T206 Cobb is not an obvious case (though I submit that it is likely a fake or scam). However, along the lines of Scott's argument-- if hefty percentage of the seller's cards appear fake (as is the case here), you shouldn't spend your time pondering that some of the other cards look legitimate. You should spend your time looking for a better seller.

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Posted By: runscott

David - this made me think. I rarely buy on ebay any more, simply because it isn't worth dealing with all the fakes, or spending a ridiculous amount of time to locate the occasional jewel. Instead, I pick up a few nice cards here and there through legitimate auctions - maybe others are going the same route and that is why Mastro is bringing such high prices?

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Posted By: runscott

...or rather, scans of Lilliputians: Norris - does your scanner have a cropping feature? If not, get a new scanner! (your cards are too nice to end up like this!)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=2751108638

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Posted By: Hankron

Naturally, I could write a hundred posts on the subect, but I will distinguish between buying an expensive and inexpensive item. I will and do buy inexpensive items from people I don't know (though check their feedback, determine from their other auctions if they are experienced in the area and know what they are talking about, and am overall conservative in who I buy from), but I would only buy online an ungraded 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb autograph from a select few sellers. If I don't know the seller or his reptution, I won't buy such an item from him or her. Simple as that. Do I miss out on some authentic and wonderful items? Sure. I am a very conservative and methodical buyer, but I also never buy fakes or am dissapointed with what I buy.

In all areas of buying, whether in autographs, fine art or baseball memorabilia, I am a firm beleiver that begginers should do their first research on who are reputable dealers. Once a collector has a stable of reputable dealers (which expeands as time goes by, sometimes including that once uknown person who you bought some $7 dollar cards or photos from and were happy with the product), life is easy when you buy an expensive or esoteric item.

I can also promise you that if you are buying from reputable sellers, you will find it easy when it's time to resell the items. When the provenance is included (receipt or printout of the eBay auction), the collector ain't going to have trouble reselling at a premium the rare bat he bought from Dave Knoll, the autographs he bought from Mike Gutierrez or the T206 Cobb he bought from Lew Lipset.

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Posted By: Hankron

Some may have noticed that I made a composite name ('Dave Knoll'), but, whether I meant to save Dave Bushing or Dan Knoll, both fit the bill as good sellers.

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Posted By: TBob

I can appreciate the sentiment about not buying cards on ebay but only through Mastro, etc. The problem is that there are trimmed cards in the Mastro and other auctions also (I am not including the cards clearly marked trimmed). While there will always be fakes and scammers on ebay, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face by not bidding on cards on ebay. Besides if you think people are not bidding on ebay and the prices have been going down, please check the recent buy prices for caramel cards. They have skyrocketed whether they be lesser or higher grades.

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Posted By: Hankron

Bob, while authenticity and lack thereof is a subject that obviously gets me excited, I agree that eBay is agreat place to buy. There are lots of great sellers, both full time dealers and normal collectors. I also think that the vast majority of eBay sellers are honest and try to do a decent job. I recently bought a Greta Garbo photograph from someone in Romania, and was satisfied with the transaction.

I submit that 99 percent of eBay forgeries and intentional fakes CAN be avoided before bidding. Hell, if you skipped Private Auctions and "All Sales are Final" you would autmatically skip 95 percent of them right there. If you then skipped featured auctions of high end Pre-War cards where the seller can't fit the entire card in the scan and cards that don't actually resemble the real cards and cards that look exactly like they've been cut out of the Funk & Wagnal Dictionary* and are so ugly that they would scare the family dog, you're almost home free.

* Yes, there indeed once was a AAA Graded Funk & Wagnal Babe Ruth

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Posted By: runscott

I can't find anywhere in this thread where anyone implied that ebay prices are going down - the opposite is true in many cases. Also, I completely disagree with you that those of us who now spend less time scouring ebay and more time scouring legitimate auctions, are cutting off our noses to spite our faces. It is simply a "time vs return" decision. But where you look for cards and how much time you spend doing it is certainly your business, and I respect that.

I too would prefer that Mastro not sell lots of trimmed and hole-punched cards - it detracts, in my opinion, from their respectability. But that's a business decision they have made, and I can understand it. I still feel confident that if I bought an altered card from Mastro, and it wasn't advertised as such, that they would take back the lot - perhaps I'm being naive, but I believe that.

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Posted By: runscott

I still look for photos and publications on ebay, but not as much. I look at ebay for cards mostly just to keep an eye on market prices - I only remember winning one card auction since March and it was for a lot of Helmar stamps containing the elusive Reulbach.

Are there others like me who spend less time on ebay? (I used to be a fanatic as Lee and Elliot can attest to - no bargain BIN escaped me ). I'm just curious - maybe it's just me and it was natural to get bored after a few years of ebay. I still really enjoy the vintage baseball discussions, and the late-night chats, but ebay seems to be much less a part of the legitimate end of this hobby than it was a year ago. Am I wrong?