T206 Detective Work

[The Nasty Nati]

I was eyeing this on ebay and forgot and failed to bid on it, but somebody picked up a pretty nice front miscut with a sliver of a different player on the front.

Can anybody identify the other player?

Better scan in the ebay link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Joe-Doy...vip=true&rt=nc

[sreader3]

My gut reaction was Willetts but I think I'm going to go with Reulbach (No Glove).

[The Nasty Nati]

I think you're right about the Reulbach. I see what may be a hint of his sleeve.

Does this possible discovery bring any new light on the T206 sheet layouts?

[atx840]

I had Reulbach as well, which interesting enough is next to Konetchy. These three are part of a small subset of 34 cards that we see grouped across many 460 series backs and compose the yellow brown scraps & the BL460s brand.

[mrvster]

rare as chris will elaborate...............GREAT PICK UP!

[mrvster]

btw....WOW

HOLY CRAP!

the broadleaf 460 and sc 460 no overprint yellow brown scraps correlation.....OMG!

I looked at your collage and it made perfect sense


DUDE! you figured something out huge

let's see who else realizes it

[The Nasty Nati]

...Well now I feel even worse for missing out on this card.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by atx840

I had Reulbach as well, which interesting enough is next to Konetchy. These three are part of a small subset of 34 cards that we see grouped across many 460 series backs and compose the yellow brown scraps & the BL460s brand.

Chris, Neat card and info. That "34" number shows up a lot (e.g., 34 SLers with Brown Hindu; 34 major leaguers with SC 150/649, etc.). Thanks for sharing. Scot

[sreader3]

Hi Chris,

Below is the confirmed list of 37 for AB350 No Frame. Besides Nichols (Batting), can you advise which two aren't part of the grouping of 34 that includes Doyle-Reulbach-Konetchy?

Thanks!

Scot

Baker, Frank
Bender, Chief (No Trees)
Burch, Al (Fielding)
Conroy, Wid (With Bat)
Crawford, Sam (With Bat)
Doolan, Mickey (Batting)
Downey, Tom (Batting)
Doyle, Larry (With Bat)
Elberfeld, Kid (Fielding)
Griffith, Clark (Batting)
Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing)
Johnson, Walter (Glove At Chest)
Jordan, Tim (Batting)
Konetchy, Ed (Glove Near Ground)
Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball)
Leifield, Lefty (Batting)
Magee, Sherry (With Bat)
Manning, Rube (Pitching)
McQuillan, George (With Bat)
Mullin, George (With Bat)
Murphy, Danny (Batting)
Nichols, Simon (Batting)
Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level)
Pelty, Barney (Vertical)
Pfeister, Jake (Throwing)
Reulbach, Ed (No Glove Showing)
Rucker, Nap (Throwing)
Seymour, Cy (Throwing)
Stahl, Jake (Glove Shows)
Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat)
Street, Gabby (Catching)
Sweeney, Jeff
Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder)
Wilhelm, Kaiser (With Bat)
Willetts, Ed
Willis, Vic (Batting)
Wiltse, Hooks (Pitching)

[jp1216]

Great info Scott & Chris. Thanks for sharing guys!

[atx840]

Hey Scott, here are the 17 shared between the two backs.

No note, the y/b scraps have the Ames where the BL460s have Dougherty (which I believe was swapped out at some point during the 460 print run)

Baker, Frank
Bender, Chief (No Trees)
Doolan, Mickey (Batting)
Downey, Tom (Batting)
Doyle, Larry (With Bat)
Elberfeld, Kid (Fielding)
Griffith, Clark (Batting)
Johnson, Walter (Glove At Chest)
Konetchy, Ed (Glove Near Ground)
Magee, Sherry (With Bat)
Murphy, Danny (Batting)
Reulbach, Ed (No Glove Showing)
Rucker, Nap (Throwing)
Seymour, Cy (Throwing)
Stahl, Jake (Glove Shows)*
Street, Gabby (Catching)
Sweeney, Jeff

These 17 are not found in the AB no frame.

Brown, Mordecai (Chicago On Shirt)
Davis, Harry (Davis On Front)
Donlin, Mike (With Bat)
Dougherty, Patsy (Arm In Air)
Joss, Addie (Hands At Chest)
Kleinow, Red (New York - Catching)
McIntyre, Harry (Brooklyn & Chicago)
O'Leary, Charley (Hands On Knees)
Snodgrass, Fred (Catching)
Willis, Vic (Throwing)
Young, Cy (With Glove)
Chance, Frank (Portrait - Yellow)
Chase, Hal (Portrait - Blue)
Chase, Hal (Black Cap)
Cobb, Ty (Portrait - Red)
Evers, Johnny (Chicago On Shirt-Yellow Sky)
Mathewson, Christy (Dark Cap)

[sreader3]

Thanks Chris. More complicated than I thought! I assumed AB350 NF and the scraps would have 34 of 37 in common. Scot

[sreader3]

Chris,

Is the SC Y/B 460 scrap Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) or (Boston)?

Thanks.

Scot

[atx840]

Boston, only known example and its a pretty low quality scan. I do not have a scan of the Chase dark cap.

Here is a higher quality version of the below layout.

[mrvster]

the sweet cap 460 yellow browns are exactly the same # and same subjects as broadleaf 460

OH BOY!

ames swaped for Dougherty.........they must have been printed concurrently......

DUDE!

this is huge! they are almost the same total population known/ same subjects...

TWINS TO BROADLEAF 460

[sreader3]

Chris -- Your theory that Dougherty (Arm in Air) was swapped out for Ames (Hands Above) is interesting. That could explain why it took so long to confirm Ames with SC 460/42 No Overstrike and why he has not been confirmed with Red Hindu when there is otherwise perfect (as far as we know) correspondence between SC 460/42 No Overstrike and Red Hindu. I suppose the theory would be that the swap occurred after Red Hindu production ended but while SC 460/42 No Overstrike production was still ongoing. Hence no Ames Red Hindu and a shortprinted Ames SC 460/42 No Overstrike. You seem to be way ahead of me on this so perhaps I am just telling you what you already know.

Johnny -- Your BL460 comments are also very interesting. Will have to absorb them.

Scot

[t206hound]

I'm pretty sure that Chris has done this analysis, but I took a stab at it as well. Note that several cards in the 460 series that are expected, but not confirmed. There could be some that are not expected, that do exist (the Ames SC460-42 is one that appeared recently).

When looking at the 460 Series of 109 subjects (American Beauty, Broad Leaf, Cycle, Piedmont 25/42, Sovereign, Sweet Cap 25/30/42/42OP, Yellow Brown) you can break them down into smaller groups:

Superprints (6), which appear in all the 460 series (including YB) except AB460:

• Chance, Frank (Portrait - Yellow)
• Chase, Hal (Portrait - Blue)
• Chase, Hal (Black Cap)
• Cobb, Ty (Portrait - Red)
• Evers, Johnny (Chicago On Shirt-Yellow Sky)
• Mathewson, Christy (Dark Cap)

Remaining non-AB460 (27), don't appear in AB460, S460 or SC460-30. I'm not grouping in Dougherty (no Yellow Brown):

• Baker, Frank
• Bender, Chief (No Trees)
• Brown, Mordecai (Chicago On Shirt)
• Davis, Harry (Davis On Front)
• Donlin, Mike (With Bat)
• Doolan, Mickey (Batting)
• Downey, Tom (Batting)
• Doyle, Larry (With Bat)
• Elberfeld, Kid (Fielding)
• Griffith, Clark (Batting)
• Johnson, Walter (Glove At Chest)
• Joss, Addie (Hands At Chest)
• Kleinow, Red (Boston - Catching)
• Konetchy, Ed (Glove Near Ground)
• Magee, Sherry (With Bat)
• McIntyre, Harry (Brooklyn & Chicago)
• Murphy, Danny (Batting)
• O'Leary, Charley (Hands On Knees)
• Reulbach, Ed (No Glove Showing)
• Rucker, Nap (Throwing)
• Seymour, Cy (Throwing)
• Snodgrass, Fred (Catching)
• Stahl, Jake (Glove Shows)
• Street, Gabby (Catching)
• Sweeney, Jeff
• Willis, Vic (Throwing)
• Young, Cy (With Glove)

Then we get to the groups that are in AB460...

Exclusive Twelve (12), which do appear in AB460, but not in BL460, P460-25, SC460-25 or YB:

• Crandall, Doc (Portrait With Cap)
• DeVore, Josh
• Duffy, Hugh
• Ford, Russ
• Gandil, Chick
• Geyer, Rube
• Hummel, John
• McGraw, John (Glove At Hip)
• Pfeffer, Francis
• Sheckard, Jimmy (Glove Showing)
• Tannehill, Lee (Tannehill On Front)
• Wheat, Zack

Then we have the Sovereign group (34):
Group A (21) - not in P42

• Abbaticchio, Ed (Blue Sleeves)
• Ball, Neal (Cleveland)
• Bell, George (Follow Thru)
• Bescher, Bob (Hands In Air)
• Bridwell, Al (Portrait - With Cap)
• Camnitz, Howie (Arm At Side)
• Camnitz, Howie (Hands Above Head)
• Doyle, Larry (Portrait)
• Frill, John
• Herzog, Buck (Boston)
• Howell, Harry (Hand At Waist)
• Lake, Joe (St. Louis - Ball In Hand)
• McGraw, John (Portrait - With Cap)
• Meyers, Chief
• Needham, Tom
• Oldring, Rube (Batting)
• Payne, Fred
• Schulte, Wildfire (Back View)
• Smith, Happy
• Stovall, George (Batting)
• Tinker, Joe (Bat On Shoulder)

Group B (13) - In P42

• Bergen, Bill (Catching)
• Chance, Frank (Batting)
• Chase, Hal (Holding Trophy)
• Latham, Arlie
• Marquard, Rube (Pitching)
• Merkle, Fred (Throwing)
• Murray, Red (Portrait)
• Overall, Orval (Hands Waist Level)
• Schaefer, Germany (Washington)
• Schlei, Admiral (Batting)
• Schlei, Admiral (Portrait)
• Seymour, Cy (Portrait)
• Wiltse, Hooks (Portrait - With Cap)

Then the Piedmont 42, non-Sovereign group (28):

• Berger, Heinie
• Bradley, Bill (With Bat)
• Burch, Al (Fielding)
• Cobb, Ty (Bat Off Shoulder)
• Conroy, Wid (With Bat)
• Crawford, Sam (With Bat)
• Jennings, Hughie (One Hand Showing)
• Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing)
• Jordan, Tim (Batting)
• Lajoie, Nap (With Bat)
• Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball)
• Leach, Tommy (Bending Over)
• Leifield, Lefty (Batting)
• Manning, Rube (Pitching)
• McQuillan, George (With Bat)
• Mullin, George (With Bat)
• Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level)
• Pelty, Barney (Vertical)*
• Pfeister, Jake (Throwing)
• Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston)
• Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat)
• Tinker, Joe (Bat Off Shoulder)
• Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder)
• White, Doc (Pitching)
• Wilhelm, Kaiser (With Bat)
• Willetts, Ed
• Willis, Vic (Batting)
• Wiltse, Hooks (Pitching)

And then there is Ames and Dougherty. They both appear in: Cycle 460, EPDG, Lennox Black, Old Mill, P350, P460-25, P460-42, PB, S350AG, SC350-25, SC350-30, SC460-25, SC460-42, and SC460-42OP

Ames also has: AB460, Uzit, Yellow Brown
Dougherty also has: BL460, Red Hindu

The original thought I had as I have been putting together the SC460-42 subset was that Ames and Dougherty were short printed, but within the same press runs (and sheets) and perhaps there are some undiscovered cards. But I would guess that Chris' notion that they were swapped out for each other at some point during press runs is a more probable explanation.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Ames also has: AB460, Uzit, Yellow Brown
Dougherty also has: BL460, Red Hindu

The original thought I had as I have been putting together the SC460-42 subset was that Ames and Dougherty were short printed, but within the same press runs (and sheets) and perhaps there are some undiscovered cards. But I would guess that Chris' notion that they were swapped out for each other at some point during press runs is a more probable explanation.

Erick, Thanks for this information. I agree with you that the swap theory seems more consistent with the apparent mutual exclusivity (as opposed to just higher/lower percentages) of Ames and Dougherty with those five backs. I guess time will tell whether mutual exclusivity holds up. Scot

[mrvster]

this is amazing!! we are re verse engineering the sheets!

looks like the sweet cap 350-460 no overstrike yellow/brown printer's scrap are the sister cards to broadleaf 460! exact subject matter/except for the dougherty / ames swap.....

Scot....please help confirm

this is amazing!

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by mrvster

this is amazing!! we are re verse engineering the sheets!

looks like the sweet cap 350-460 no overstrike yellow/brown printer's scrap are the sister cards to broadleaf 460! exact subject matter/except for the dougherty / ames swap.....

Scot....please help confirm

this is amazing!

Johnny,

I think that's where we are headed, although a few of the BL460s are not yet confirmed. I want to emphasize that Chris' posts on this thread are the first I have heard about it. It is the fruit of his research--not mine.

Scot

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Ames also has: AB460, Uzit, Yellow Brown
Dougherty also has: BL460, Red Hindu

The original thought I had as I have been putting together the SC460-42 subset was that Ames and Dougherty were short printed, but within the same press runs (and sheets) and perhaps there are some undiscovered cards. But I would guess that Chris' notion that they were swapped out for each other at some point during press runs is a more probable explanation.

Another point in favor of the Ames for Dougherty swap theory is the ledger page indicating that packing of T206 cards with the Uzit brand began on March 18, 1911--very late in the process. In view of that timeline, it makes sense that Dougherty would not have been printed with that back.

[tedzan]

Hey guys, this switching of Ames and Dougherty is an interesting theory; but, I think it needs more research.

I'd like to question certain comments that have been made here regarding the 350/460 series Ames card with AB 460 & UZIT backs. I posted this thread
a month ago regarding this Ames card presenting arguments why this Ames card was not printed with AB 460, nor UZIT backs
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=203849

Neither of these backs have been confirmed with this Ames card. AB 460's are very tough, but not that impossible that we would not have seen the Ames
card by now with an AB 460 back. Yet......

(1) I have not seen this Ames in the 8 years that I have been chasing my AB 460 sub-set.

(2) David Hall, in his quest for a Master set of T206's, has not seen an Ames/AB 460.

(3) And Scot (correct me if I am wrong here) has not seen an Ames/AB 460 card in his 100K+ T206 survey.

The recent discovery of this AMES with a SWEET CAPORAL 460/42 back suggests that this Ames was also printed with a red HINDU back. Therefore, due
to the mutually exclusive law regarding 350/460 series subjects, this Ames card will never be found with an AB 460 back......nor a UZIT.

I predict that eventually this Ames card will be discovered with a red HINDU back. Furthermore, I also think it may also be found with a BL 460 back.


TED Z
.

[atx840]

I do not think they were mutually exclusive, just that at some point during the print run the cards were swapped. It could have been half way through several brands being printed.

I also am not sure the confirmed listing on T206resource for Ames AB460 & UZIT are correct, originally I thought its possible Ames was subbed back in for Tinker but with the recent P42 Tinker find this no longer fits. Would really like to see scans of these two cards.

Recently Dougherty was found with RH, which could explain why no Ames has been found.

HA Auction

[mrvster]

an amazing thing to see the yellow/brown scrap collage chris assembled......then just look at the broadleaf 460 list....

it would be great to see a bl 460 collage!!! and put them side to side

hint....hint....hint

[sreader3]

1. Mutually exclusive. What I meant by this is that Dougherty (Arm in Air) and Ames (Arms Above) have not yet both been “seen” to date with such backs. Such mutual exclusivity is suggestive of “swapping” one for the other on a sheet, rather than, for example, printing 4 Doughertys and 1 Ames on a sheet, since in the 4/1 case one would expect that at least a few Ameses would have surfaced by now. However, mutual exclusivity to-date is not conclusive of a front-back combination’s existence or non-existence since, in the case of scarcer backs, it is possible that a copy might not have yet emerged in a 4/1 (or even a 2/1, for that matter) ratio printing.

2. Survey data. Ted is correct that Ames AB 460 was not among the 100K+ cards publicly sold during the 2008 – 2013 survey period (assuming my survey to be comprehensive). However, this is of limited probative value toward its nonexistence since several hundred scarcer front/back combinations whose existence is not disputed were not sold during that survey period. T206 Resource says this front/back combination exists and they have done a pretty good job as far as I know in requiring proof (e.g., scans) before adding front/back combinations to their checklists. Moreover, Ted’s working theory seems to rely on the existence of Ames with Red Hindu which has not been proven.

3. I agree with Ted that further study is required; however, I remain intrigued by the Ames for Dougherty swap theory since it seems to fit the presently available data.

Scot

Edited to change: "about 1,000" to "several hundred" in paragraph 2.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by atx840

Boston, only known example and its a pretty low quality scan. I do not have a scan of the Chase dark cap.

Here is a higher quality version of the below layout.

Pardon me if I have misconstrued something here.

OK, I count 33 images in this scan. And, Chase (dark cap) is missing, which would bring the total to 34 subjects. Therefore Chris, why are you assuming that Dougherty
is not the 35th missing subject ?

You are trying to make the number "34" fit into your theory. However, as I see it there could actually be 35 subjects in this group of scraps (which includes Dougherty).


Furthermore, I assume that all these scraps have SWEET CAP 460/30 backs. Is this a correct observation by me ?

If this is true, then there should be 28 more scraps from the 350/460 series that were printed with the SWEET CAP 460/30 backs. Thoughts as to why these additional
28 have not been found ?


TED Z
.

[atx840]

You are correct Chase is the 34th card. One 34 card sheet had Dougherty and switched to a 34 card sheet with Ames. This one y/b sheet had Ames and was scrapped before the 42 OP was added. There are multiple 34 card sheets to make the SC series. The other 28 were likely also printed with the 6 super prints making a second 34 sheet but unfortunately no scrapped sheet had been found.

We see 2 groups of 28 throughout the 460 series that combined with the 6 super prints and your 2x6 Exclusives that create 34 card sheets. There is also a 21 card group and a 13 card group that combine to 34. The only reason they are split oddly is the P42s do not contain the 21 card group.

If a y/b Dougherty showed up that would change things for sure, either a before Ames and after Ames sheets were scrapped or I'm way off.

[tedzan]

The bigger picture is....if you do an analysis of the POP report data (SGC + PSA) you'll find that the numbers for Ames and Dougherty are essentially
equal to each other as a function of CYCLE 460, EPDG, LENOX, OM, PB, SOVEREIGN, TOLSTOI backs.

And then, if you compare these numbers with the POP report data (SGC + PSA) of the other 28 subjects (minus the 6 super-prints) in this lot of your
34 scraps, you'll see that there isn't much difference.

The point I'm making here is that I don't see in these numbers any hint of "subject swapping" between Ames and Dougherty. In my book, there were
35 subjects (including Dougherty). This fact is indeed confirmed by the 350/460 series of 35 subjects which were printed with SWEET CAPORAL 460-
Factory 42 backs.

Furthermore, I'd be somewhat more receptive to your "subject swapping" idea, if these 2 guys had been traded or retired during the printing timeline
of these cards. But, Red Ames pitched for the NY Giants from 1903-1913. Patsy Dougherty played with the Chicago White Sox from 1906 till the end
of 1911.

Hey ole buddy......my theory is these 35 subjects with SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 backs were printed simultaneously with the red HINDU backs.
Therefore, I will bet you that a red HINDU Ames will eventually be discovered.

Would like you like to get into this game ?


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Well, two things for sure gentlemen:

We'll all be on the lookout for Ames AB 460 and Red Hindu.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by atx840

Boston, only known example and its a pretty low quality scan. I do not have a scan of the Chase dark cap.

Here is a higher quality version of the below layout.

This card just arrived, so I thought I'd post it with Chris' grid. Doesn't help us locate that Ames, however. I'll keep looking....

[mrvster]

congrats! great pick up I'm jealous

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mrvster

congrats! great pick up I'm jealous

Thanks, buddy. I hope it wasn't you that I outbid.

[mrvster]

Sean! didn't even see it!


AWESOME y/b

[Sean]

It was in the SGC auction that ended the same day as REA, which is probably why you missed it. They only featured a couple T206.

Getting this one made me feel better about getting shutout in REA.

[atx840]

Hey Ted, here is my breakdown of the entire 460 series.

The first group of 27 + 1 (either Dougherty or Ames) + the 6 superprints would make a sheet of 34.

The group 3 of 28 + 6 (either super prints, or your Exclusive 12) makes 34

The groups 4 & 5 of 21 + 13 makes another sheet of 34 (the one oddball is P42s are missing the 21, which is weird)

There is 34 SC 150 F649s, 34 Hindu SLs, 67+1 (Either Magie or Magee) in P150, SC150F25, SC150F30, SOV150 & Hindu. Its also very frequent in the 350 series but thats still a work in progress.

Why are the P42s missing the group of 21, how do we get a significant more Exclusive 12s in AB460, SOV460s & RH, did a group of 28+Exclusives get mixed in when printing the UZITS. This is what keeps me up at night

[tedzan]

Looks good....but, I'm not certain I understand columns 4 & 5 ? ?

Please elucidate.


Also, this diagram appears to imply that the Exclusive 12 were intermixed with other 460 series subjects on the same sheet ?

Say this isn't so !


TED Z
.

[atx840]

Progress!

The 4&5 groups should be one large 34 group and on all but the P42s we find those 34 cards always together. Oddly the P42s don't have any from the 21 group so I've had to divide it up.

I think the 6 super prints and your 12 were combined with any 28 group to make 34. Also all 12 could have been subbed in for others in the 28 group. It's also possible entire columns were the Exclusive 12s combined.

The pop report would help determine which are less frequent.


Erick your breakdown is very similar to what I've been working on. Keep breaking down the subsets into the smallest common denominator of groups. I've limited it to series as its pretty messy for the entire set.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by atx840

Progress!
Why are the P42s missing the group of 21, how do we get a significant more Exclusive 12s in AB460, SOV460s & RH, did a group of 28+Exclusives get mixed in when printing the UZITS. This is what keeps me up at night .

Based solely on observation while attempting to put together the Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 42 subset (only need two), you can include SC460-42 in the group where there are signicantly more E12s.

[tedzan]

Hey good buddy, I'm still confused....are you saying that the Exclusive 12 were printed on the same sheet as the other 34 (or 35) subjects ?
If so, I have a serious difference with you.

The following is my theoretical timeline (based on American Litho. ledger notes) for the Exclusive 12 subjects printed on a sheet exclusively
of their own with......

Late 1910-Jan 1911

SC 460/42
Red HINDU

Jan-Feb 1911

AB 460
UZIT

Mar 1911

NOT PRINTED with LENOX, or PIEDMONT 460/42 (as other T206's were)



Exclusive 12 subjects with SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory 42 backs......






.



TED Z
.

[Drew]

Thanks
Great Info
drew