POLAR BEAR subset....need your Inputs ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

For any of you guys contemplating a run to assemble an all-Polar Bear "subset".....here is a list of 70 cards
from the 350 and 460 Series that were not printed with this brand.

Subject to any revisions in this list....a complete PB set consists of 249 cards......which include Cobb (red),
Cobb (bat off), Demmitt (St L), Johnson (pitch), Lajoie (bat), Mathewson (dk cap), O'Hara (St L), Speaker,
CYoung (glove).

"I think this may be the start of a beautiful friendship".....my 5th set of T206's.....Claude Raines to Bogie in
Casablanca's final scene




NO-PRINTS

Abstein
Becker
Bender (trees)
Geo. Brown (Wash)
Burns
Butler
Byrne
Campbell
Cassidy
Camnitz (hds over)
Charles
Collins (A's)
Cree
Cross
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Demmitt (NY)
Dineen
Donovan (throw)
Doolan (fldg)
Downs
Dubuc
Dunn (Balt)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Elberfeld (port-Wash)
Fiene (throw)
Fletcher
Hall
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hoffman (St Louis)
Huggins (port)
Huggins (hds/mouth)
Hunter
Killian (port)
Knabe
Knight (bat)
Lennox
Lundgren (KC)
Malarkey
Marquard (port)
Marshall
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
McElveen
McGinley
McIntyre (Det)
Mitchell (Cinc)
Mitchell (Tor)
Moran (Prov)
Mowery
Myers (bat)
Oberlin
O'Hara
Overall (hds/face)
Paskert
Phelan
Poland
Rhoades (hds/chest)
Rossman
Schmidt (port)
Starr
Stephens
Street (port)
Summers
Sweeney (Bost)
Thomas
Wilson
Zimmerman

I'm 95-99 % confident that this list is accurate, based on my research. However, if anyone can confirm
any of these cards with Polar Bear backs....please post them on this Thread, or email me at....

tedzan11@comcast.net

So, you T206 dudes, check-out your cards....and see if you can knock off some of these guys on my list ?

Thanks,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe D.

In the 80s... I was the "Polar Bear" kid when I went to card shows. I only collected T206s with Polar Bear Backs (why couldn't I have picked Drum instead?)

I believe I had 200+ before selling them all last year (to buy other cool stuff).

I hope I still have the scans on my home computer - and I will check them to see if I have any discrepencies with your list.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Fascinating, unbelievable research.

I can't imagine anyone could ever know for sure, but I would imagine that if there are only 249 cards available, then something must have been double-printed. I can't see why they would line up an odd number of cards on a sheet. They'd have added in one more to get an even 250, I would think. Is there any card with a PB back that seems to be more common than the others?

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You have a good point....however, that is how the math came out. Consider this, though,
the 1933 Goudey set consists of 239 cards.....another odd number. But, we know that they
were printed on 24-card sheets and that Babe Ruth (#144) was doubled-printed.

The big mystery we have with the T206's, is that we have no idea of how they were printed.

TED Z

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Posted By: Judson Hamlin

Y'know Ted, whenever it is I can't find a T206 that I still need, I'll think of you-- when are you going to do the all Old Mill or EPdG set?? As far as the no print list, I have Adkins and Ganzel, but none of the others. I also have not seen any of the other cards on your list. Nice work, as usual.

Judson

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Didn't you once, also, say you liked Sovereign's ?

Or am I thinking of another Joe ?

Anyhow, I sure do wish you still had all those 200+ Polar Bear's. See, if you can find your
info on them; and, please get back to me if you do.

And, if my research is correct, you had over 80 % of the set.

Confusius' admonition....never-ever sell vintage BB cards you purchased in the 1980's....for
you'll never acquire them again for those very reasonable prices you paid for them back then.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Judson Hamlin

does not apply to card actually printed in the 80's. 1988 Topps anyone?

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe D.

I think the Sovereigns are awesome... and I voted for that back when you were considering which one would be your next subset. So, it might be me you are talking about.


I didn't collect Sovereigns though. I collected only Polar Bears... until I got a copy of The Monster and saw that Polar Bear didn't make some of the cards. So, I looked for a back that would fill in the blanks and went with Old Mill.

I was a dumb kid. I avoided Piedmonts because they were plentiful.

Never knew that Polar Bear were the dirtiest for a reason.

I probably would have had more than one full set right now (minus the biggies)... because my parents were very willing to buy me the cards at the shows (wonderful parents). But, I was stubborn - and they had to be Polar Bear.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Rivera

TED,

i have Adkins with a PB back-email me and we can talk-

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks guy, we can scratch Adkins from the list. The first one to go and I hope we get
some more inputs....I do not mind being corrected. I said my analysis is approx. 95 %
accurate.

I'll email you later tonite.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Ted,

With every one of these "brand" subsets you get closer and closer to the superset. Can't wait 'til you go after Sweet Cap, Old Mill and EPDG!

Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

With Jim's input, that increases the Polar Bear count to 250 cards.

How's that for a nice even number ?

OK GUYS.....
There must be a few more that I missed....look at your collections and give us your inputs ?

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Judson Hamlin

...and Ganzel is 251

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'm getting to old to do all those subsets that you are suggesting. These tasks have to be farmed out.
Either that, or I'll have to wait till my Grandson, Ron finishes College (he's studying at the U of Maine).
And, then he will continue where I left off.

You have to start these T206 challenges in your 20's and perhaps when you reach my age you will be
approaching a complete "super-set".

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks.....Ganzel should not have been in the list to begin with (my hasty transcribing error).
I checked my "scratch notes".....it was Hartsel that I intended (I guess I can't read my own
writing)....anyhow, he's in the list now.

So, we are still at a "cool" 250 cards.

And, thanks again for bringing this to my attention.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: john/z28jd

Ted,I'll check the list on sunday to see what i have but try to remind me by email to check. I have about 60 polar bear cards as i once won a lot of 40 of them off ebay at least 7 years ago

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

While you are checking out your set for the Polar Bear's, don't forget to also provide me your
list of Sovereign's.

Thanks,
TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe D.

I found about 180 scans...
and going through them.. I see two that are on your 'non-print' list:

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Updated List....68....No-Print cards

New total of possible Polar Bear cards = 251

Thanks for inputs from Jim, Joe, and Judson
Also, I added Myers (fldg)....he was left out of initial list

NO-PRINTS

Abstein
Becker
Bender (trees)
Geo. Brown (Wash)
Burns
Butler
Byrne
Campbell
Cassidy
Camnitz (hds over)
Charles
Collins (A's)
Cree
Cross
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Demmitt (NY)
Dineen
Donovan (throw)
Doolan (fldg)
Downs
Dubuc
Dunn (Balt)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Elberfeld (port-Wash)
Fiene (throw)
Fletcher
Hall
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hoffman (St Louis)
Huggins (port)
Huggins (hds/mouth)
Hunter
Killian (port)
Knabe
Lennox
Lundgren (KC)
Malarkey
Marquard (port)
Marshall
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
McElveen
McGinley
McIntyre (Det)
Mitchell (Cinc)
Mitchell (Tor)
Moran (Prov)
Mowery
Myers (bat)
Myers (fldg)
Oberlin
O'Hara (NY)
Paskert
Phelan
Poland
Rhoades (hds/chest)
Rossman
Schmidt (port)
Starr
Stephens
Street (port)
Summers
Sweeney (Bost)
Thomas
Wilson
Zimmerman

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

Your "no print" list looks pretty good to me--but I'll be on the lookout to see if I can knock off one or two more!

Scot

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Posted By: barry arnold

Great work as always, Ted.
I checked the cards from your list and found no polar bears in my collection. I actually had everyone on the list except for the
Elberfeld Washington portrait!
By the way, thanks for the tip re: the one on ebay which i lost in the last
few seconds--price went over my limit a bit.

a great polar bear ride.

all the best,
barry

[Archive]

Posted By: john/z28jd

Ted,I have 66 Polar Bear cards total and the only one i have from your list is the Camnitz,in fact i have Polar Bear backs on all 3 Camnitz cards which is just a coincidence,didnt collect them that way


For Sovereign cards i have in no particular order:
Parent,Theilman(2),Kling,Shaw(prov.)Atz,Batch,Barr y(milw) Bell(above head) Bridwell(port),Ciccotte,Conroy(bat) Crandall(w/cap) F.Jones(port)JJ Clarke(2),Tannehill(L on front)Dineen, M Brown(port) Donovan(pitch) Ferris,Abbott,Bransfield, Burns,Smith(buff)

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for the input.... Camnitz

I need 6 of your Sovereign cards....we'll talk about this when I email you later tonite.

TED Z

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

So wait. Now we're up to 251 cards? There should be 252, then, again unless something was double-printed.

-Al

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Posted By: Mike Ernst

Checked my set (less the big 4) and duplicates--no new Polar Bears to add in that group of 550+.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

MIKE

Thanks for taking the time to look thru your large T206 collection.

And, congratulations for achieving a 520-card set.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ron

Hi Ted,
Was going over my set. I have the Camnitz hands above head polar bear. Actually it is in my duplicate pile.Will send you a scan
tonight.
Regards,
Ron

[Archive]

Posted By: Elliot

Ted, looked through my t206's, nothing to add to your list. Interestingly my Smith (Chicago and Boston) is also a PB. It would be interesting to see the back distribution on this card amongst people on the forum.

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

i think it was i who pointed out that Smith, Chi & Bos, is seen more times than not, with PB backs...i own a PSA 5 (PB) and used to own a PSA 3 (PB)...

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

In a prior Thread about a year ago, I had noted that Smith (Chi & Bos) was virtually the last Piedmont back
I acquired for my set.
On the average, I would find 4 Polar Bear backs for every other T-brand. Here's my sub-set of Frank Smith's......

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Updated List....67....No-Print cards

New total of possible Polar Bear cards = 252

NO-PRINTS

Abstein
Becker
Bender (trees)
Geo. Brown (Wash)
Burns
Butler
Byrne
Campbell
Cassidy
Charles
Collins (A's)
Cree
Cross
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Demmitt (NY)
Dineen
Donovan (throw)
Doolan (fldg)
Downs
Dubuc
Dunn (Balt)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Elberfeld (port-Wash)
Fiene (throw)
Fletcher
Hall
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hoffman (St Louis)
Huggins (port)
Huggins (hds/mouth)
Hunter
Killian (port)
Knabe
Lennox
Lundgren (KC)
Malarkey
Marquard (port)
Marshall
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
McElveen
McGinley
McIntyre (Det)
Mitchell (Cinc)
Mitchell (Tor)
Moran (Prov)
Mowery
Myers (bat)
Myers (fldg)
Oberlin
O'Hara (NY)
Paskert
Phelan
Poland
Rhoades (hds/chest)
Rossman
Schmidt (port)
Starr
Stephens
Street (port)
Summers
Sweeney (Bost)
Thomas
Wilson
Zimmerman

All you T206 guys....there must be some more cards on this list that I have overlooked.
So, check-out your sets and see if you have any of these with Polar Bear backs ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Judson Hamlin

Assuming that the T206's were printed in sheets, as the persuasive evidence indicates, and if the Polar Bear list is complete at 252, does it stand to reason that the sheets were 12 cards wide at Amer. Litho., even if all possible 21 sheets were not printed in equal quantities?

Are there any off-center/mis-cut cards with PB backs that might advance this hypo?
Can we ID any trends on the frequency of surviving cards with PB backs?

One can of worms, with opener, please.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I would not rush to conclude that the final count is 252 cards in this sub-set.

I expect some more Polar Bear's will be scratched off my No-Print list. We haven't had enough
inputs to determine how valid this list is yet.

How about it guys and gals, you avid T206 collectors, take some time to scan your cards and
see if you have any of these Subjects with Polar Bear backs ?

Thanks,

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Marc S.

Based on your research, I just determined that I have finished off my T-206 Philadelphia Nationals subset of Polar Bear Backs (I had Doolan Fielding and Knabe as my two open possibilities)

Cheers!

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Glad I have prevented you from going on a "wild goose" chase. And, Congrats on completing your T206 Phillies
team set.

It's stories like yours, that emphasize the importance of generating these T-brand "No-Print" lists....because
many T206 collectors have assumed that all the Subjects were equally printed with respect to the 15 basic
Tobacco brands.

And, this is assumption can be very misleading.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
The cards on your Polar Bear "no print" seem to fit a certain pattern which includes the following backs:

American Beauty
Broad Leaf
Carolina Brights
Drum
Tolstoi

I still think the popularity and Distribution of the brands is the key to cracking the monster. Keep looking. Be well Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave Hornish

Is it correct to state that if there is a Polar Bear back for a card there should be a Tolstoi back? Sorry, I don't have my reference materials handy but I think the Superset spreadsheet was showing the same number of possible cards for both backs.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

When analyzing "The Monster", never assume certain correlations......you have to do the homework.

So, to answer your "Q"......although a large number of Subjects with Polar Bear backs are also found
with Tolstoi backs......there are about 20 % that are NOT coincidental.

Last time to ask you T206 guys to check your cards to see if you can match any with my No-Print list ?

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

NO-PRINTS

Abstein
Becker
Bender (trees)
Geo. Brown (Wash)
Burns
Butler
Byrne
Campbell
Cassidy
Charles
Collins (A's)
Cree
Cross
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Demmitt (NY)
Dineen
Donovan (throw)
Doolan (fldg)
Downs
Dubuc
Dunn (Balt)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Elberfeld (port-Wash)
Fiene (throw)
Fletcher
Hall
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hoffman (St Louis)
Huggins (port)
Huggins (hds/mouth)
Hunter
Killian (port)
Knabe
Lennox
Lundgren (KC)
Malarkey
Marquard (port)
Marshall
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
McElveen
McGinley
McIntyre (Det)
Mitchell (Cinc)
Mitchell (Tor)
Moran (Prov)
Mowery
Myers (bat)
Myers (fldg)
Oberlin
O'Hara (NY)
Paskert
Phelan
Poland
Rhoades (hds/chest)
Rossman
Schmidt (port)
Starr
Stephens
Street (port)
Summers
Sweeney (Bost)
Thomas
Wilson
Zimmerman

TOTAL = 67 NO PRINTS

Last chance to check out your T206 - POLAR BEAR's and see if any match this list ?

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Going Once.....Going Twice.....

Last chance for you serious T206 collector's to participant in a part of T206 history......by contributing
your POLAR BEAR inputs to this Thread.

Come on guys, this NO-PRINT list of mine cannot be that perfect.....check-out your cards to see if any
of yours match ?

Thanks,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
It's probably not perfect, but close. I have 95% of the cards on your list with one of the following tougher backs:
American Beauty
Broadleaf
Carolina Brights
and Tolstoi to a lesser extent.

Be well Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I know you like the American Beauty cards. I'm not going after them (yet)....besides I already have a Green
colored field of backs with my Sovereign set.

And, I have an all BLUE field of backs with my 518 card PIEDMONT set......so, I am debating an all RED set.
But, I haven't quite decided yet....I'm considering the really tough challenge of an El PRINCIPE de GALES set.
This set would keep me busy for a long time.

Best regards,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

You're clear with me... my Polar Bears match up with what you say exists...

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Posted By: Dave F

Ted, you could always take the ultimate challenge and go after the set with those nice purple letters...

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

My priorities regarding T206 sets, are assembling the larger ones 1st....so, I can better understand "The
Monster".
And, that was certainly true when I did my all-Piedmont set, it was a tremendous education in progress.

Likewise....currently with my near complete all-Sovereign set.

Next, I might try an EPDG set, or a POLAR BEAR set.

The DRUM sub-set, that you are alluding to, I will leave for my Grandson to do.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave Hornish

Ted, how close are you to the Sovereign set?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I have 359 of the 404 cards that were printed with SOVEREIGN backs in the T206 set. Or, perhaps,
more appropriately called a "sub-set".
The tricky part in assembling this set was to figure out which cards were not printed with this back.
Otherwise, you could go "nuts" chasing cards that don't exist.

And, this problem exists with 14 of the basic T-brands....PIEDMONT is the exception, as all 522 cards
were printed with this brand.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

Ted, in all seriousness...I'd love to see you pursue the Polar Bear's next. For one I think it would be slightly easier than EPDG's.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

As is evident in this Thread, I did my homework on the POLAR BEAR's.

Now, I'm analyzing the EPDG cards to see how difficult of a challenge they might present. I don't
necessarily go after the easier set. There is something about the EPDG cards that appeals to me.

Anyhow, the factor that may decide which way I go, is if I can acquire a large lot (50 - 200) cards
with the same backs. Presently, I have more EPDG cards than POLAR BEAR's.

In any event, I will give your suggestion some serious thought......I have a good start on the POLAR
BEAR set with the two Cobb's (red & bat off) and the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis versions).

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

Ted...

Just out of curiousity, would Tolstoi's also fit into your mix at this time? Or do you not have the number of them as you do EPDG's or even Polar Bears?