'Altered' vs 'Authentic' - confused

[scomeau]

This stems from a PSA submission of a '54 Kaline that came back as simply 'Altered'. I can't see anything! I got no insight from PSA as to why. It has a flip stuck to a 'CardSaver' and has a Cert#, but it is "not in their database". It's not an update lag as it was months ago.

Anyway, I googled to learn the technical difference between 'Altered' and 'Authentic' only to find little good info. I have 'Authentic' grades that I assume are either trimmed, torn, skinned, or otherwise mistreated. But I can't find real detail on the difference between altered, authentic and 'altered authentic'.

It seems that 'Altered' leans more toward restoration attempts, but then why doesn't 'trimmed' also get that grade? I got the sense that there is no question regarding authenticity as it wasn't described as counterfeit. So, why won't they encapsulate?

I guess I'd also like to know how it would affect valuation! Since it can't be encapsulated, does it become worthless?

I will call PSA to see what they say, but I thought you might help clear the fog and provide some advice.

Thanks.

[bobbyw8469]

Since it can't be encapsulated, does it become worthless?

Far from it. Some people go out of their way to collect "A" cards because it allows them to get a nicer looking card for a fraction of the price. Try submitting to SGC, and check the box allowing them to put "A" cards in holders.

[scomeau]

Thanks. Does 'A' include altered? Do they differentiate between Altered and Authentic?

[GaryPassamonte]

This was encapsulated about 10 years ago. An erasure at the bottom caused the "altered authentic" determination.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

This was encapsulated about 10 years ago. An erasure at the bottom caused the "altered authentic" determination.

Great example Gary. I do not believe SGC labels like that though. Its just an A.

[Pat R]

From PSA's website.
img858.jpg
Manning A.jpg

[scomeau]

Thanks again, Andrew and Gary

[T205 GB]

A is used as an umbrella grade. It can be on a card that was altered, is in poor condition, is just Authentic(as some card issues were), or some collectors just want a card slabbed and an A used instead of numerical.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

A is used as an umbrella grade. It can be on a card that was altered, is in poor condition, is just Authentic(as some card issues were), or some collectors just want a card slabbed and an A used instead of numerical.

+1

Away from grading, authentic for anything means the item is genuine. For card grades, it means the card is genuine but there is something wrong with it-- alteration, restoration, major damage, ultra poor condition, or if the submitter specifically asked for the grade (perhaps the owner preferred an Auth to a Poor).

Also, there may some really rare and esoteric items that will only get the authentic grade.

In my world of artifact authentication, authenticity and condition grade are two different things.

[scomeau]

Agreed. Authenticity and condition are 2 separate items, but questionable authenticity really undermines its value. Although assigning a numerical grade to an 'altered' card is a contradiction, it's too bad there is not some way to clarify what the issues might be.

I think SGC tries to do that as I have some Old Judge cards graded as 'A' but with 'skinned' or 'trimmed' indicated on the flip. That helps. Even if it were only recorded in the SGC certification library. At least that way, a buyer could get a better picture based on a cert lookup.

[T205 GB]

Authentic should be applied to any cards that have been treated roughly, hand cut, ect, ect, but not manipulated deliberately in anyway as to enhance the cards appeal or value.

Altered cards are cards that were deliberately altered to enhance the appeal and or value.

JMO

[scomeau]

Thanks Andrew.

A couple questions.
Does anyone offer 'Authentic Altered' encapsulation?
Does anyone actually describe the issue or just reject?

I have seen older cards that are 'Authentic' but have black pen used on the front or back to cover chips or tears. Especially like N300 Mayo Cut Plug. I'm talking SGC or PSA graded 'A'. Isn't that deliberate? Trimmed too...

Again, thanks.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Authentic should be applied to any cards that have been treated roughly, hand cut, ect, ect, but not manipulated deliberately in anyway as to enhance the cards appeal or value.

Altered cards are cards that were deliberately altered to enhance the appeal and or value.

JMO

Did you make this definition up? Lots of old timers cut/trimmed their cards to fit in a sheet...in my opinion this is an altered card...and obviously not altered to enhance the appearance/aesthetic?

[steve B]

I haven't sent anything in for a long time, but this is how SGC did it if you didn't go with the simple "A" slab.


This card is factory, but the top and bottom cuts are really rough.