"1888" GOODWIN CHAMPIONS (N162) cards are actually an 1889 set

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

Hello Ted,
Always enjoy a 19th century thread. Seems dating sets has become a little more popular, a subject I enjoy.

Regarding Dunlap, "Captain" and "Manager" are two different titles and were almost always two different people. The captain was typically a player, manager not.

Hi Joe

Pardon me for differing with you here......but, it appears to me that the titles "Captain" & "Manager" in that era were interchangeable. For example, SABR's bio on "King" Kelly states:
"Kelly was named captain and manager of the Boston Reds". We know Kelly was a playing-manager in 1890 in Boston. And, if I recall correctly, Kelly's N173 cabinet identifies him as:
Kelly, Capt.
Boston

And, of course this N173 is dated as an 1889 card. Or perhaps, is it possibly an 1890 issue ?

I bring up this possibility because of the intriguing story about the George Toffling proof card (page 69 in your OLD JUDGE book). Which raises the question>were some N173's issued
in 1890 ?

I still think the term "Capt." on the N162 card of Dunlap represents "Manager". As, I have not seen anything indicating he was the Pittsburgh team Captain in 1888.

N172, N173, etc., etc. cards of Anson identify him as "Capt."...... although he was a playing-manager from 1879 - 1898.


Take care my friend,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Joe_G.]

A little more background . . . captain does not = manager although a playing manager can be both.

It was an honor to be named team captain, typically a player with good skills, deep knowledge of the game, and well liked by players. If the manager happens to also be a player than you could have someone like Anson who was both captain and manager (manager has say in naming the captain).

In 1887, Detroit had Watkins as manager and Hanlon as captain (& center fielder), Dunlap was merely 2nd baseman. Dunlap was heavily recruited by Pittsburgh as the 1887 season came to a close. Dunlap would be signed by Pittsburgh one week after this late 1887 entry from the Pittsburgh Post with indications that they wanted him as captain.

Here is another entry before start of 1888 season in which he is referred to as captain. He would be known as Captain Dunlap his whole time with Pittsburgh. He would manage 17 games near the end of his stay but that had nothing to do with his title as Captain.

Dunlap would have 9 different N172 poses issued by Goodwin & Co. in 1888, all with "Capt. Dunlap" at nameplate.

[1880nonsports]

especially after they realized how much they were spending on promotional items -and redemptions as time went on - way more than the cost of the smokes and often exceeding 40% of operating budget. Think presidential heads base ball card series and many other advertising pieces of the 1880's and 1890's. Same thing with the T206 promotional ERA - generally extended deadlines and enhanced offerings were employed until they utilized and distributed what they had. Too bad there was no Job Lots or...…

Albums were expensive to produce. I can really only think of one time replacements were made - the Ginter Indian Chief album - although more likely it was something they fixed by a subsequent printing. Of course there could be others. Quite a few coupons were needed to secure

"Yet that didn't stop Goodwin from offering albums that were then inaccurate; perhaps they continued to offer the album until printed supply ran out sometime in 1889. I note that Goodwin dropped the coupon count from 75 to 50 in 1889 to perhaps encourage the supply to be exhausted) "

no guarantees whether written or implied

[tedzan]

Hi Joe

Thanks for that info regarding Fred Dunlap....very interesting.

So, I will delve back into my research and see what other bits of info I have that may prove my contention that the N162 cards and Album
may have been printed and issued in 1889.

Thanks again,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Joe_G.]

Ted, I appreciate the discussion. It may be surprising to some that the A36 album (based on N162s) was available in 1889 and on this point we agree . . . the album could be redeemed in 1889. I am however quite certain that the N162 cards and A36 album debuted in 1888. The only unknown to me is whether the N162 cards, like the album, were also issued in 1889. We may never know for sure but I keep looking for clues.

[SetBuilder]

While we're on the subject of OJ's (sorry if I'm hijacking your thread)...

Old Judge cards aren't albumen prints either.

They're much more primitive salt prints.

The price of eggs in 1887 was something like 20 or 30 cents per dozen, while the price of salt had fallen precipitously by 1887-88 to less than $1.00 a barrel.

It would've made no sense from an economic perspective to print cheapo giveaway cards using expensive albumen, which was used by high end photographers to make glossy high-resolution CDVs (think Matthew Brady...) instead of the much cheaper mixture of salt and water. Separating the egg whites from the yolk would have also added an extra step in the manufacturing process (unnecessary labor costs).

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

While we're on the subject of OJ's (sorry if I'm hijacking your thread)...

Old Judge cards aren't albumen prints either.

They're much more primitive salt prints.

The price of eggs in 1887 was something like 20 or 30 cents per dozen, while the price of salt had fallen precipitously by 1887-88 to less than $1.00 a barrel.

It would've made no sense from an economic perspective to print cheapo giveaway cards using expensive albumen, which was used by high end photographers to make glossy high-resolution CDVs (think Matthew Brady...) instead of the much cheaper mixture of salt and water. Separating the egg whites from the yolk would have also added an extra step in the manufacturing process (unnecessary labor costs).

Not sure where you are getting your information, but Old Judges are albumen prints.

[oldjudge]

[QUOTE=tedzan;1789223]

I bring up this possibility because of the intriguing story about the George Toffling proof card (page 69 in your OLD JUDGE book). Which raises the question>were some N173's issued
in 1890 ?


Ted-I saw your question about Toffling and I had to jump in. A Toffling N173 could have theoretically only been issued in 1889 (none was) because that was the only year he was slated to play in the Western Association. Goodwin issued cards for players who played in the Western Association, even if they had no prior Old Judge card. However, in 1890 Toffling played in the Central Interstate League. First, in 1890 Goodwin issued only NL and PL cards. Second, even if Goodwin employed the card issuance protocol that it did in 1889, Toffling could not have had a card since players in lower minor leagues only had team change cards issued, ie cards previously issued modified to reflect the new team. Toffling had no prior card.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I bring up this possibility because of the intriguing story about the George Toffling proof card (page 69 in your OLD JUDGE book). Which raises the question>were some N173's issued
in 1890 ?

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Ted-I saw your question about Toffling and I had to jump in. A Toffling N173 could have theoretically only been issued in 1889 (none was) because that was the only year he was slated to play in the Western Association. Goodwin issued cards for players who played in the Western Association, even if they had no prior Old Judge card. However, in 1890 Toffling played in the Central Interstate League. First, in 1890 Goodwin issued only NL and PL cards. Second, even if Goodwin employed the card issuance protocol that it did in 1889, Toffling could not have had a card since players in lower minor leagues only had team change cards issued, ie cards previously issued modified to reflect the new team. Toffling had no prior card.

Jay

I was fascinated by the George Toffling / N173 proof story.

Thanks for further elaborating on it.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jay

I was fascinated by the George Toffling / N173 proof story.

Thanks for further elaborating on it.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

It’s a fascinating card. I’m glad someone actually read what we wrote.