What's hurting the vintage card hobby?

[Abravefan11]

I'm curious what the veteran collectors and new to vintage collectors think are the things keeping the hobby from growing more than it has. What if anything do we need to change to bring new collectors into the hobby?

[JP]

I think there are too many older collectors who hoard the rarest cards out there, and have no intention of sharing those cards with new collectors. And then when they are sold in major auctions upon their untimely deaths, only the "big buck" boys have a crack at them.

[smtjoy]

I believe that issues like auction house shilling, card restoration and fakes will be future issues that can really hurt the hobby but I think the biggest issue we face is how to attract new collectors into this great hobby.

[glchen]

First, scams. It's hard to buy a raw card these days without wondering if it's been altered, trimmed, or is a reprint. Second, kids these days have a lot of other entertainment options from video games to pokemon. So baseball card collecting has dropped steadily in popularity. Also, baseball as a sport is less popular than in the past. Steroids and the opinion that the teams w/ money can win have hurt baseball. And I think the most important reason is the disaster of the 80s, which has extended until now, which is oversupply of cards. There are simply too many modern sets and cards. People tend to first get hooked on the hobby as a kid by collecting the modern cards and the current stars. Then they start getting more and more interested in the history of the sport, and move into vintage. Now, they don't even get started in the hobby anymore, which hurts vintage. I think each year only needs 3 major sets, an affordable collectors edition, a premium set, and an authentics set. The first two can have an Updated/Traded/Rookies subset, but that's it. With only 3 sets, it can make getting into the hobby a lot simpler and affordable.

[Browncow75]

I think the difficulty of accurately pricing the myriad of the less popular card series without the use of the internet turns some collectors off, where, with modern cards, all you have to do is look at a Beckett. That, along with the huge difference in pricing of the grade levels of vintage slabbed cards (a PSA 1 common vs. a PSA 3 T206 common for example) makes some lean towards newer cards that have a more "standard" price in the market.

[jb217676]

I think the vintage hobby will be just fine. I converted to vintage a couple of years ago. My buddy Rob Miller (Robextend) is another young gun with a passion for vintage, and I'm sure most of the newer members to this forum are younger as well. Watching ebay trends lately, PSA 2 common T206 cards seem to be going for PSA 3 $ lately, compared to what I was noticing a year ago. I'm guessing newer vintage collectors are getting their feet wet in the vintage hobby with the 'monster'.

[mintacular]

I really don't think the vintage years are hurting too much, it's the newer stuff that will never IMO match the vintage yrs. Today's youth will NEVER become infatuated with 2.5 x 3.5" basic picture of a BASEBALL player on front, stats on back (for obvious internet reasons), the way earlier generations did.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by JP

I think there are too many older collectors who hoard the rarest cards out there, and have no intention of sharing those cards with new collectors. And then when they are sold in major auctions upon their untimely deaths, only the "big buck" boys have a crack at them.

JP what does that even mean? Collectors didn't want to sell when they were alive and if and when they die their collections may go up for sale to the highest bidder.

A good example would be the late Joe P or Larry Fritsch they had some great cards. Perhaps Joe or Larry’s cards will be made for public sale one day. Then I have the chance to purchase them as they were not for sale during their lifetime and I respect that.

That seems to be the normal course for this hobby or any great collections art etc.

So what would be the alternative and old time collector to sell me the card at half price to help me out or share the wealth?

Please don’t tell me we need to redistribute card wealth too (kidding light hearted political joke).

Not busting your chops just don’t follow your logic.

Cheers,

John

[JP]

John,

It was 100% a joke.

Any luck on the pic?

JP

[wonkaticket]

Ahhh got ya, I was really lost there got to roll me a smiley next time...LOL

JP haven't even started since I looked last night..I'll see what I can do.

[wonkaticket]

A big step in fixing this hobby is holding folks accountable and having the restraint to say no to the folks who are caught or implicated in bad stuff. Not just outing card doctor techniques and or posting conspiracy theories or complaints on a chat board.

We as collectors don't do enough holding folks responsible and continue to give the “bad guys” business and support. Guys faking cards, listing cards wrong and selling questionable items is just a portion of the bigger problem IMO. We as collectors need to say no more business for these guys if we feel that strong about them. Not just piss and moan then rush to bid in folks questionable auctions or use folks questionable information websites.

A big part of what is wrong with the hobby and or holding the hobby back is the collectors themselves all of us. We all buy into a system that ultimately in many ways allows us to be prayed upon if you will…IMO.

Cheers,

John

[teetwoohsix]

Good question Tim.And everyone made some great points.JP,I agree,and that's sad but true.

One thing I think may hurt the vintage card hobby is the lack of pre-war cards in a lot of local card shops.They carry 50's and 60's cards,and to them,that's vintage.And true,that is vintage,but if you have a couple of showcases in your shop with a nice variety of pre-war cards I think it would catch peoples attention,and ignite their curiosity.

A couple of people who run card shops here in Las Vegas said there's no market here for pre-war,so they do not bother.My first thought was-you have to create the market-make it available!!

If people come in looking to buy a Rose rookie ,,and see a wonderful display of Old Judges,T206's,T205's,Zeenuts,Caramels,etc.,I think it would catch their attention,and get them interested.

Just my two pennies.

Regards,Clayton

[mintacular]

It might catch their attention but passerby customers aren't going to pay big bucks for players they've never heard of, despite the the age/rarity/eye appeal of said cards...

[nolemmings]

I don't believe the hobby is growing too slowly, and I don't want it to grow any faster. The economy in general has forced some people to forego or cut back on hobby expenditures across the board, I would guess--still alot of folks out of work and fighting to save their houses. Still, when I look at my saved ebay "you won" emails from over the past many years, I see prices have climbed steadily on most all prewar stuff, so demand is surely there. Auctions have increased in terms of both the number of auction houses and in frequency, and while there is some turnover of high ticket items, there's no shortage of continued "new" material, so supply hasn't disapeared either.

In short, the hobby is fine, IMO.

[teetwoohsix]

You have a good point Pat,but how else would a new collector of modern cards ever get exposed to pre-war,or become inclined to learn the history and who some of these players were unless it is made available to them?

They may not spend big bucks on them the first time they see them,but they may begin an interest in the cards that gets them to buy their first one,,and then,it's all over !!!

Clayton

[benjulmag]

When I was a kid in the 60's, the current cards as a practical matter had no value. We flipped them, handled them, put them in our bicycle wheels spokes. In other words, we enjoyed them for what they were, not for what they were worth. That to me is how someone develops a passion for collecting. In contrast, when my son collected cards, he and his friends seemed to put too much focus on what the cards were worth and whether they were in immaculate condition.

So with all the focus today about investment value and slabbing comes the cost of making it much harder for kids, tomorrow's serious collectors, to develop their passion for collecting.

[FUBAR]

i think the forgeries and scammers are what is hurting us the most... plus, its pretty hard to find a clothespin to put a card in your spokes anymore!

[JP]

I wish eBay sellers like rawoysterman would go away...

[chris6net]

I think the local shows in the big cities like where I live NYC cater more to autographs and 50,s and 60,s cards more than ever before. I can remember the Hofstra and White Plains shows having a ton of vintage 10 years ago not to mention the Philly Shows. CN

[FUBAR]

i do feel like a lot more of the true pre-war vintage cards are being kept in collections rather then traded. Ebay has allowed pre-war collectors more access to these cards and many sellers have taken advantage of that and put them into auctions rather then shows. You get a guaranteed sale in an auction.

[jbsports33]

I think sites like this really help, I try to help through my site and shows. The main issues I see when a new collector comes into the hobby and wants to collect prewar items is inconsistency with grading, autos, identifying older items – not to mention shill bidding and fraud as well. Those are the main reason collectors stay away from the older items, great topic.

Jimmy

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by jb217676

I think the vintage hobby will be just fine. I converted to vintage a couple of years ago. My buddy Rob Miller (Robextend) is another young gun with a passion for vintage, and I'm sure most of the newer members to this forum are younger as well. Watching ebay trends lately, PSA 2 common T206 cards seem to be going for PSA 3 $ lately, compared to what I was noticing a year ago. I'm guessing newer vintage collectors are getting their feet wet in the vintage hobby with the 'monster'.

I agree, I am sure there will be enough guys like us to try and keep the love for vintage alive. I think a major key these days is being able to display your collection on the internet for others to see. I know I get inspired when I look at the collections of my hobby counterparts.

[drdduet]

To the original question,

a few bad eggs.

[jb217676]

Originally Posted by Robextend

I agree, I am sure there will be enough guys like us to try and keep the love for vintage alive. I think a major key these days is being able to display your collection on the internet for others to see. I know I get inspired when I look at the collections of my hobby counterparts.

Totally OT
Rob, I noticed from your imageevent pics your a pitcher on a slo-pitch team. I play first base for the Baseball Furies in a Toronto beer-ball league. If you're ever in Toronto on a Wednesday night we could always use the pitching help!

[Robextend]

It's modified fast pitch...get that straight!!!! We won 4 Sunday PM championships in a row, dominating Marine Park, Brooklyn!

I wouldn't mind helping you guys out, just get me a passport and that Michael Jordan RC you obviously don't need....

[jb217676]

That Jordan RC was my signing bonus!

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

I'm curious what the veteran collectors and new to vintage collectors think are the things keeping the hobby from growing more than it has.

I think, mostly, it's Rob D.

[dstraate]

Originally Posted by mintacular

It might catch their attention but passerby customers aren't going to pay big bucks for players they've never heard of, despite the the age/rarity/eye appeal of said cards...

I really think that's the essence of the problem. Most names that pull up nostalgia for the good ol' days are guys like Ruth, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, DiMaggio, Etc.

Many people who have 5K of expendable income want to connect with those days, those names.

The much older cards require an appreciation of the history, how the hobby has evolved. (An esoteric niche not geared for mainstream appeal). Maybe it's for the best. If everybody wanted Old Judges, you can rest assured they'd be even harder to come by.

[JasonL]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

I think, mostly, it's Rob D.

This was really really good.

[JasonL]

"It's the economy, stupid!"

Upward spiraling asset values cover all the blemishes, get people excited, maintain interest, etc...

[Tony Gordon]

In my observation, based alone on the large number of venues where cards may be purchased today, the vintage card hobby is extremely healthy. When I first began collecting in 1975, my only options for obtaining cards were the corner drug store, trades with friends or the flea market. Today I regularly purchase cards from five or six private auction houses, eBay, and card shows -- with each possessing tremendous amounts of inventory.

In addition, I have been selling cards since 1979 when the old man loaded up my shoe boxes and set me up at the local flea market. Today, I sell cards on eBay and at local card shows every weekend. In this lousy economy, I'm selling more cards than ever before. Turn out at three of the four local card shows has been terrific. The fourth show, not so good, but I go because the few guys that show up and the other dealers are great people and I enjoy their company.

There are always kids buying vintage cards at each of these shows. Each kid I talk to has a surprising amount of baseball history knowledge. Today, baseball history is a mouse click away.

Sure there is fraud and a criminal element out there, but it has always been there and will be around wherever and whenever money is exchanged. Through websites like Net54, conversations with other collectors and dealers, it's easy to learn how to spot the frauds, fakes and criminals.

I think the hobby is in great shape. My only issue these days is convincing my wife that I should buy more cards instead of redoing the bathroom.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by JasonL

"It's the economy, stupid!"

Upward spiraling asset values cover all the blemishes, get people excited, maintain interest, etc...

+1 on that.

I'd also add that the much-maligned label "advanced collector" has a place in this discussion. It is necessary to differentiate between different collector styles and degrees of sophistication when analyzing the "vintage card hobby"; you can't just toss it all into one basket. When I first started out collecting, the natural place to start was with the leading lights in the modern (at the time) game--Hank Aaron, Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Pete Rose--plus some well known old timers--Ruth, Johnson, Cobb, Matty, Gehrig--in mainstream vintage sets. As I developed an appreciation for the cards themselves, reads more about their history, learned about variations, etc., I naturally moved on towards older, more obscure and rarer issues. I'd say that advanced collectors lead the way into the more remote corners of the vintage universe and collect very differently from people who are relatively recent to the field. Modern card collectors may never cross over to vintage card collection and when they do they might not ever move away from T206, Goudey, Play Ball, etc., and into Zeenuts, E cards or whatever else there is out there. What's most important, IMO, is making room in the hobby for everyone's particular niche(s) so that no one interested in collecting is turned off from the hobby. That's the best way to grow the collector base.

Oh, and free food and drinks at the National.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by Tony Gordon

In my observation, based alone on the large number of venues where cards may be purchased today, the vintage card hobby is extremely healthy. When I first began collecting in 1975, my only options for obtaining cards were the corner drug store, trades with friends or the flea market. Today I regularly purchase cards from five or six private auction houses, eBay, and card shows -- with each possessing tremendous amounts of inventory.

In addition, I have been selling cards since 1979 when the old man loaded up my shoe boxes and set me up at the local flea market. Today, I sell cards on eBay and at local card shows every weekend. In this lousy economy, I'm selling more cards than ever before. Turn out at three of the four local card shows has been terrific. The fourth show, not so good, but I go because the few guys that show up and the other dealers are great people and I enjoy their company.

There are always kids buying vintage cards at each of these shows. Each kid I talk to has a surprising amount of baseball history knowledge. Today, baseball history is a mouse click away.

Sure there is fraud and a criminal element out there, but it has always been there and will be around wherever and whenever money is exchanged. Through websites like Net54, conversations with other collectors and dealers, it's easy to learn how to spot the frauds, fakes and criminals.

I think the hobby is in great shape. My only issue these days is convincing my wife that I should buy more cards instead of redoing the bathroom.

Hello Tony,

Very positive feedback there - nice to hear! Mind sharing what part of the world you are in? (Just curious to know if experiences differ depending on where you live.)

[EDIT: I see from another of your posts that you are in the Chicago area. Good to hear the hobby is strong there!]

Cheers,
Blair

[calvindog]

Fraud mainly. Greed doesn't help, especially annoying when it causes people to commit minor frauds just cause they think they can get away with it. Hypocrisy is also bad, especially when it occurs in an effort to hide fraud (mainly because of greed). And once some of the degenerates are forced out of the auction business the hobby will also improve.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Fraud mainly. Greed doesn't help, especially annoying when it causes people to commit minor frauds just cause they think they can get away with it. Hypocrisy is also bad, especially when it occurs in an effort to hide fraud (mainly because of greed). And once some of the degenerates are forced out of the auction business the hobby will also improve.

With the possible exception of one grand jury target, and the disposition of that remains to be seen, do you really see anyone being forced out?

[ChrisStufflestreet]

Fun.

I began collecting when I was 6 years old, a time where my attention span ran pretty quick from Star Wars to baseball to Superman to Emergency! to what was on the radio to playing with my friends to whatever else just happened to catch it. Some of my first cards followed those interests -- Star Wars, Superman and baseball were among the first subjects I collected in '78/'79, with Wacky Packages following soon after -- but I'd have never kept at it if it wasn't fun.

My friends and I traded them, played games with them, competed over who could get the most. As time went on and my friends began finding other interests, I still enjoyed them. Without my chums, I still did stuff with the cards like sorting through them, organizing them in different manners and working towards getting a set every year. I was a terrible math student until it hit me that the statistics on the back of my cards were math-related. So the 6th grade C student in basic math was an A student in precalculus as a high school senior.

Even today, they're fun. I write about them, and enjoy showing off the ugly ones in my collection. It's not about the money, in fact I don't even have a price guide that's less than 5 years old and don't subscribe to VCP. My daughter has a collection too, based on what she likes...not by what return it might bring her in the future.

When I was a kid, we played with cards. Not a whole lot of them survived our abuse. Then, people began comparing price trends and encouraging collectors to put large numbers away without using them for what the Cardboard Gods intended. When I was a weekend seller between 1989-'92, there were 11 year-old kids who had memorized the values of all the hot cards in the latest Beckett. Hell, when I was 11, there was still a kid in the neighborhood who used a card and a clothespin to make his bicycle sound like it had a motor.

Anything that makes this hobby fun will help keep collectors interested.

[cfc1909]

I don't think the problem is sellers like rawoysterman who has listings that you can clearly see they have low priced fakes-apposed to a t206 Museum that has alot of good information but is buying $75 dollar cards and faking them and promoting them as rare as the Ty Cobb brand and scamming new and veteran collectors or any one they can.

I have made alot a good hobby friends over the years but it is hard for new collectors to figure out who the good guys are. the more open honest talk we have here the better it will be for all of us....

[Jewish-collector]

We are going through a generational shift in our hobby. The baby boomers, one of the most influential groups in American history, really got this entire hobby going in the 1980's. I think today's generation collects a little differently than the baby boomers did. There is a major difference between today's collector and the old-time collector.

Many years ago, most transactions in the hobby were done by trading and exchanging want lists through the mail. Even at the few early card shows in the country, there were some cash transactions, but more trades. With the internet, almost everything is less personal and done through eBay, auction houses, and/or web sites. However, todays collectors create and enjoy in different ways to make their own collecting a very rewarding experience.

Alan

[BCauley]

I personally got wrapped up in vintage about 10 years ago. I was and only picked up modern stuff at the time once in awhile glancing at "old stuff" at shows but nothing more.

For some reason or another, I got started on the '55 Topps set as someone on the ebay boards at the time was working on a '55 PSA 8 set and he had a bunch of mid grade stuff he wanted to get rid of. I looked into it and thought the set just looked great and was affordable to put together for me at the time as I was at the end of college. THEN, some seller on ebay accidentally shipped an order to me meant for someone else that had a '41 Play Ball in it and I fell in love with that set. (Yes, I found out who it belonged to and shipped it to them ASAP.)

As time went on and modern stuff got more and more ridiculous, I was looking at post war vintage a lot more, mostly 50s and 60s. THEN, at a time I don't remember, I stumbled upon this site. Just looking at all of the cards and learning a boat load from you guys, I fell in love with pre-war. I've always had a great passion for the old timers. The players, not you guys!

Anyway, I was still buying modern up until about a few months ago mixed in with the vintage I was after and finally said to heck with it. I bagged the modern stuff and am strictly vintage. Well, 99%. There will still be some modern I'll want every now and then. I am on another board that is mostly modern and some guys do have an appreciation for the vintage but I think they like the "chase" a lot more in opening boxes/cases. The gamble is more fun for them rather than picking up a card here and there knowing what they are getting.

Enough of my rant. I really don't know what's hurting. From what I've seen on other boards, people really like the chase of a big "hit" in modern stuff. That and there really isn't that much exposure to pre-war unless you actually go looking for it or stumble upon it and have a sudden love for it.

[ethicsprof]

Avarice.

it seduces, captures, and often kills.


best,
barry

[J.McMurry]

The much older cards require an appreciation of the history........

I think that is what drives most vintage collectors. (NOT investors)

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

I'm curious what the veteran collectors and new to vintage collectors think are the things keeping the hobby from growing more than it has. What if anything do we need to change to bring new collectors into the hobby?

I started collecting vintage cards a couple years ago at age 26, and greed is what hurts it for me. I'm idealistic and collect the cards for their historical significance; they're like little pieces of art. Occasionally I'll come across an old-timer who realizes this and will sell me a card or two at a gentleman's price, but too often I'm bidding against "some lawyer in New York" that is offering crazy money for the whole lot. Who knows what he'll do with it; for some reason I expect the worst. I really wish I lived 40 years ago when fun cards could be found in shoeboxes at garage sales or antique shops instead of vaulted away in auction houses or flaunted at ridiculous BIN prices on eBay.

Anyhow, just some perspective from a newbie.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Tex

... but too often I'm bidding against "some lawyer in New York" that is offering crazy money for the whole lot.

LOL! You cast a wide net with aspersions like that!

[barrysloate]

I saw it too Jim, but chose not to respond. Couldn't he have picked Chicago, or Walla Walla?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Tex

...too often I'm bidding against "some lawyer in New York" that is offering crazy money for the whole lot. .

It's quite possible that Jeff, oops, I mean the lawyer in NY, has as much of an appreciation of the history behind the cards as you do, he just has a little more disposable income.

[ktwilli71]

One thing that hurts is.....

Technology ! First off young people cant grasp the concept of paying $250 or $500 bucks for a piece of cardboard . Those who may collect dont think its worth it because its not numbered .They would rather pay money for the lastest video game , computer , cell phone or ipod .

Just a thought .

[sportscardtheory]

It's like gold. The smart ones are buying gold now, not selling. Like gold, vintage cardboard is being hoarded right now, and that's not a bad thing... except for those who want to buy-in at fair prices. lol

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

LOL! You cast a wide net with aspersions like that!

Haha, I'm not referring to anyone here! I have no idea about the background of posters. But the situation I describe has happened to me a few times in my short collecting career, and I'm only a casual collector. Next time, I'll just be sure to ask for the lawyers name.

[T206DK]

I asked the guy at the car dealership if he would accept a partial T205 set as payment for a car...he laughed his ass off. when I asked him if they would accept a load of Krugerrands he stopped laughing. When I can buy a loaf of bread with this tobacco card card I'm holding then I'll admit that investors and speculators haven't ruined the hobby

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by T206DK

I asked the guy at the car dealership if he would accept a partial T205 set as payment for a car...he laughed his ass off. when I asked him if they would accept a load of Krugerrands he stopped laughing. When I can buy a loaf of bread with this tobacco card card I'm holding then I'll admit that investors and speculators haven't ruined the hobby

That's like offering gold as a payment to a def/blind person. What do you expect them do do, say yes without really knowing what it is besides what you tell them it is? It could be a rock for all they know. Most people couldn't tell the difference between a T206 Honus Wagner and a 1989 Topps Mookie Wilson. What do you expect. Sell the cards, then buy the car with the money.