Killer find on Ebay

[Shoeless Moe]

I may have made the find of a lifetime on Ebay. At least my personal lifetime. To find hidden gems on Ebay requires hard work, luck, sellers non-knowledge of what they have, and an error on their part. In other words the Perfect Storm.

They listed this under Signed Photos. Big mistake. And the "signed" part may have knocked out any potential last minute snipers. More on that in a sec. So by listing this in the wrong category it eliminated pretty much any and all vintage baseball collectors. That helped me emensely.

I knew there would be last second bidding as always. The bidding was at $30 with under a minute to go. I normally wait until under 10 seconds to put my bid in, so as not to allow anyone to counter in time if I take the lead. But for some reason (I was anxious) I put my bid in at 12 seconds and good thing I did early cuz anyone familiar with buying signed items knows there is that screen that pops up let u knowing about the authenticity of signatures, blah blah blah.

So I had forgotten about that, but luckily clicked off it quickly and hit bid. If any of the competition were waiting til the last second that may have startled them and delayed getting their bid in on time. So more luck my way.

I enter a bid of $1200 and win the item for $76 dollars!!!

Game Used 1917 World Series Chicago White Sox vs New York Giants ball.

Now seeing this ball on Ebay you can never be sure if it's authentic and I knew that, but the seller did have a 7 day return policy, so I knew I was covered if it turned out to be fake.

Ball arrived today NDA and couldn't wait to open and determine if the ball was real or not. I've done research on Game Used World Series balls, some of which have appeared in Heritage and Lelands auctions. I have owned balls from the deadball era as well.

The seller also said there was writing on the other side of the ball. I couldn't make it out from the picture on Ebay, but was obviously hoping for a Shoeless Joe signature or something. Well I'm not that lucky. I wish. But the writing while faint in spots did seem to spell something. The last 3 letters were an obvious "rty". So I was hoping that was a last name of a Chicago player, but doubted it as I'm fairly familiar with their lineup, but went to Baseball reference .com NOTHING. So then I go chek out the Giants lineup. Bingo. 1 player. Lew McCarty.

I take a 2nd look at the ball and now I see Lew and the partial McCarty. So I'm stoked. Backup catcher for the Giants on the 1917 roster. It gets better.

I look at his bio, he died in Reading, PA. in 1930. A 1 hour drive from where the seller bought the ball in an estate sale. Yah yah I know the infamous estate sale ball. Well this seller I won't say his name but has a name like Orville and is very old and runs a floral shop with his wife, so I have no reason to think he would lie. So honest seller, who buys from estate auctions then sells on Ebay, they are out there.

So I find it so neat that the NL ball came from the East (makes sense), but to find that it came from an hour, possibly less, then where it the player lived and died to where the seller purchased reinforces any doubt.

So I then searched back up catcher Lew McCarty's WS stats, and he only saw action in 3 games in that series, and 2 were in Chicago, so that would have been an AL blue & red stitched ball, he played in only one game in New York (red & black stitched NL ball ), the 6th and final game!!!! I believe he took this ball from that deciding game 6 of the 1917 World Series! How friggin' neat is that, to be able to narrow it down to the exact game.

I am 100% certain this ball was used in the 1917 World Series featuring Shoeless Joe Jackson and Jim Thorpe.

I may send it to auction one day because I love the chase as much as I love owning stuff, but for now I just sit and stare at a ball most likely hit by and thrown around by Shoeless Joe Jackson. Today....Today....Today.....I consider myself the luckiest collector.....on the face of the earth.

[batsballsbases]

Paul,
thats a nice find if it turns out to be what you say it is. I to love to look in funny places for the items that I collect on ebay . many times I have also been rewarded! It takes patience and alot of fun work! Nice find and enjoy it!

[Shoeless Moe]

Yah I'll take it to Heritage or one of the other big guys next time they are in town to get their opinion, just for more piece of mind, but I really have zero doubts. And believe me years ago I paid a pretty penny for what turned out to be a fake Gehrig card. I knew it was fake when it arrived and trashed it, as I purchased off Ebay and had no recourse.

So yep if this looked fake at all it would eat at me, but I will sleep well tonight too many indicators showing the possession arrow going my way.

Here are a few I found through researching auction houses:

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=704&lotNo=19652

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7041&lotNo=81298

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=710&lotNo=19865

[slidekellyslide]

Awesome! Congrats Paul.

[BrandonG]

Are there any visible Spalding logo's remaining on the ball? If there is even a hint of the bottom panel Spalding circle I could determine if it is the correct ball for the date range for you.

[Shoeless Moe]

and thanks Brandon - please take a look

[BrandonG]

Looks good Paul, the 1917 bottom logo should have the larger stitching (11) total seams. That logo while pretty faded, looks like it has the larger stitch design which came before the thin stitch on the Heydler baseballs.

[mjkm90]

That is a terrific story and amazing find. What a thrill it must have been I would NOT have been sleeping well due to the anticipation.

[thekingofclout]

Yep. I concur with everyone else Paul. Congratulations on a terrific pick-up!

[RichardSimon]

Paul - Great pickup but a question, maybe I am missing something but you said the item had 10 watchers.
I thought that info was only available to the actual seller of the item.

[Scott Garner]

Nice job, Paul. What a great story to finish up the year!!

[Shoeless Moe]

Thanks again Brandon (and thanks all) for your opinion and knowledge, I really respect(went on to your Site, now I need to buy one of your books, do you show balls from that ERA in therr and can I paypal u the money for one if so, or how do I get one?).

Ok, so I barely got any sleep being so excited so I go onto Baseball Reference again and I had no idea you can click thru and see the actual boxscores of game on there, whatta Site.

So look at that attached of what it showed about my new favorite prewar player, who I never heard of prior to yesterday Lew McCarty. His only at bat in the Polo Grounds in the Series was pinch hitting in the bottom of the 9th.

So I am just stunned seeing this. I am just picturing this in my head. The White Sox were up 3 games to 2, they lead going to the bottom of the 9th 4-2. HOFer Urban Red Faber is on the hill, he hits the 1st batter in the bottom of the 9th, if he doesn't hit him, in retrospect, McCarty doesn't get a chance to pinch hit. Just amazing. Tying run now at the plate. I can feel the tension and excitement of the Polo Grounds fans.

So man on 1st, Faber gets the next 2 batters. Next up is the pitchers spot, but McGraw inserts Lew McCarty in his last hope to save the Series for New York. McCarty grounds to HOFer Eddie Collins to Gandil. Series over. Does Gandil then flip this ball to McCarty?????

I know I obviously can never prove, but believe me 2012 will be dedicated to buying old newspapers & magazines from that Series. I just wonder if that was baseball ettiquite back in the day, when the game was over to flip the ball to the home team. Or was, as he was known a tough mean SOB, Gandil being a jag bag and flipping the ball to him as a show of victory over the defeated Giants.

And what if McCarty came thru and the Giants rallied(top of the lineup would have been up next) and won, forced a game 7, and won. Then do Shoeless Joe and the boys throw 1919 since they then wouldn't have had a Series under their belts.....ok I'm dreaming and rambling.

I took the ball to work with me today, I'm fixated, we're gonna have lunch together : )

[Shoeless Moe]

Deleted

[thekingofclout]

.

[RichardSimon]

Paul,
Thanks for the information. I am surprised that info can be found by anyone, as I thought that was private information available only to the seller. But I guess with the technology out there, anyone can find anything.

[yanks12025]

Is there a way to check other items not shown or just the ones they have listed.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

is there a way to check other items not shown or just the ones they have listed.

removed

[thekingofclout]

.

[yanks12025]

Yeah, cause I tried searching acouple auctions I'm watching and they dont show up. Maybe that means not many people are watching them. Thanks for the tip

[GrayGhost]

I don't get the big deal bout how many are watching, as a buyer. You had a price to bid in mind, and that was your bid. If there was one or twenty, it'd take your top bid, at least the amt needed, snipe or live bid.

That said, if I had the means, a piece like that ball would thrill me. I see people spend crazy money on photos, and cards and more generic things, tho they are of course, desirable. Something like this, w the history and what it represents, is so much more "alive" IMO, and would inspire daydreaming in my mind. The ball survived all those years in the Catcher's family and somehow made it to flea bay.

IMO, simply one of my favorite items I've seen on there this year. Im Jealous, but congrats to Mr Shoeless Moe on such an AWESOME FIND SIR.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

I don't get the big deal bout how many are watching, as a buyer. You had a price to bid in mind, and that was your bid. If there was one or twenty, it'd take your top bid, at least the amt needed, snipe or live bid.

That said, if I had the means, a piece like that ball would thrill me. I see people spend crazy money on photos, and cards and more generic things, tho they are of course, desirable. Something like this, w the history and what it represents, is so much more "alive" IMO, and would inspire daydreaming in my mind. The ball survived all those years in the Catcher's family and somehow made it to flea bay.

IMO, simply one of my favorite items I've seen on there this year. Im Jealous, but congrats to Mr Shoeless Moe on such an AWESOME FIND SIR.

Thanks Scott, appreciate. And the losing pitcher was Rube Benton and my only daughter (age 1) name is Ruby. How's that for some sappy irony? Better yet the ball after nearly 100 years has made it's way home to Chicago, to a Sox fan, and to a regular Joe (but with Shoes).

[D. Bergin]

Cloak and Dagger going on here. I'm a bit curious about the Watchers issue myself.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Cloak and Dagger going on here. I'm a bit curious about the Watchers issue myself.

I gave out a Site that in retrospect I maybe should not have. So it was deleted from some of the previous posts. If people want to find it they can, they just need to dig and good things come to those who put the time in.

[bobbyw8469]

Paul,
Thanks for the information. I am surprised that info can be found by anyone, as I thought that was private information available only to the seller. But I guess with the technology out there, anyone can find anything.

There is a site called EBAY WATCH COUNT or something to that effect. If you google it, it will come up. That is how you can see how many watchers there are.

[jbsports33]

Always helps to be educated about what you collect, and I have always found items in unusual places.

Great story!

Jimmy

[mcgwirecom]

I think there is a way to find out who was the high bidder also. I'm not sure how but another member once explained it to me but I've forgotten. I thought that was interesting.

[Shoeless Moe]

By high bidder, I assume u then also mean the winner. The only way I know of seeing who the winner/high biider was is to wait a few days and then look under the Sellers Feedback Left for Others tab. The sellers usually leave feedback to their sold items, then u can click on the winner id to see them.

Just a side note. I am really thinking that this ball may very well be the ball from the last out of the 1917 World Series. I am thinking of looking into getting access to a library and their archives - old newspapers from those towns for both Reading, PA where Lew McCarty died and maybe Milton, PA where he was born. Then of course NY and Chicago newspapers from the Series, hoping for any mention that Gandil flipped/gave the ball from the final out to McCarty who grounded out to end the Series.

Also - I have sent an email to the White Sox and owner Jerry Reinsdorf to see if he has any interest. I believe they display at their stadium, the Cell, the ball from the 2005 WS victory, their first since 1917, so it would be amazing to display them side by side if I can dig up something.

PS - Anybody from Reading or Milton and want to make a few bucks researching old newspapers at their local libraries?

[yanks12025]

Wouldn't they keep the final out ball. Why give it to lew.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Wouldn't they keep the final out ball. Why give it to lew.

Ask Doug Mientkiewicz

But seriously who knows...that what I will attempt to find out. Today obviously it's a big deal, but then was it? That's the mission, I know back then they had to give foul balls back. But as far as player ettiquette went when the game ended do you know? We assume it would be kept by the team who won but that's just by going by what we see today, back then was a different time.

I found this tidbit as well:

"Before 1920, the baseballs were considered property of the team and fans were expected to throw them back if they were hit into the stands. Sweeping changes were made to the game in 1920 to make the game more fan friendly and to add offense to the game. One of those changes was allowing balls hit into the stands to be kept by the fans.
--------------
Actually the policy changed with the Giants in 1921, and was gradually adopted by other teams over the next few years. Before then, fans had to throw any foul ball back to the field (a practice that was still common in Japan until the late 1990's).

On May 16, 1921, Reuben Berman refused to throw a ball back at a New York Giants game at the Polo Grounds. He was escorted out of the stadium, and later sued the Giants for mental and physical distress and won the court case plus $100. The Giants changed their policy. (Source: The Dickson Baseball Dictionary, 3rd Edition, 2009, p. 703 "Reuben's Rule.")

In Pittsburgh a few months later, 3 fans were arrested for keeping foul balls. The city basically instructed their policemen to stop arresting people for this, and the Pirates changed their policy.

Prior to this, the Cubs allowed fans to keep foul balls as early as 1916. (Once the Phillies played in Chicago and requested compensation for 8 lost balls during batting practice.) An 11-year old boy in 1922 was arrested for this crime in 1922, spent a night in jail, and was exonerated by the judge who dismissed the charges. The judge commented "Such an act on the part of a boy is merely proof that he is following his most natural impulses. It is a thing I would do myself."

SO IF IN FACT THEN THE BALL WAS CONSIDERED PROPERTY OF THE TEAM, AND THE BALL FROM THIS GAME 6 WAS BEING PLAYED IN NEY YORK AND A NATIONAL LEAGUE BALL, DOES THE A.L. PLAYER(GANDIL) GIVE IT TO THE N.L. TEAM, AND THE PLAYER HE WOULD HAVE BEEN CLOSEST TO IS A SLOW FOOTED RIGHT HANDED BATTING CATCHER WHO GROUNDS OUT 2ND TO 1ST TO END THE GAME, LEW MCCARTY. IT IS POSSIBLE. WE'LL SEE WHAT I FIND. MISSION IMPOSSIBLE, BUT YA NEVER KNOW.

[mcgwirecom]

Yeah, I like the fact he made the last out. You could imagine the 1st baseman flipping him the ball or throwing it up in the air or something. But it puts him right at the scene so he would be someone who may have ended up with it. But even if its just a game ball he kept its still a great thing. In the long run if someone wanted to sell a piece like that it all comes down to provenance. Top dollar would only be paid to someone if they obtained it first hand and maybe even had a signed letter or some sort of documentation. The price would start dropping after that. The best you can do, having gotten it second, third or way down the line, is to do the research like you are doing. But it still comes down to does the bidder think this is the last out ball or not. No way to really prove it now.

I bought a ball on Ebay that ahd a note written on it that it was fouled by Al Brancato on 7/10/41. The ball is a correct Harridge AL ball. Bob Feller pitched against the A's that day and went the distance winning his 99th career victory. So the ball had to be thrown by him if the writing on it is to be believed. But since all the facts checked out and the ball is correct I tend to believe thats what it is.

[prewarsports]

I almost wrote this message a few days ago but did not want to come across as a party pooper or anything so I didn't, but I would hate to see you spend tons of time and money in research and not at least hear the other side of the story when it comes to valuing these types of things. Just letting you know from my experience with having sold two game used balls from World Series' in the 1910's. First one, very little provenance and everything just fit (sort of like yours) where I was sure it was the real deal and so did the seller etc. 1918 Game Used Ball with notations and stuff on the ball about George Tyler, sold for about $500-$750 in a bigger auction (about 8-10 years ago).

Now for the biggie, Last April I sold a 1915 Boston Red Sox game used World Series ball from Dick Hoblitzells estate. I had a signed letter from his daughter stating the ball was real and from her father and that he himself had explained it was from game 5 of the series, it was autographed by Hoblitzell etc. It had THE most air tight provenance to any ball from a series I have ever seen or heard of. It had it ALL when it came to reserach and prevenance, so I had high hopes for it and it was in a major auction (REA) where it was paired up with Hoblitzells cleats from the series, a photo of Dick scoring the winning run from the very game the ball was from etc. Long story short, Ball got about $1000 despite having everything you could ever hope for ($1900 total but it included the other items).

So, while your item is very cool and I am sure it is what you have determined it to be, buyers are VERY skeptical of this type of stuff and even when you have all the info you are looking for and then some (like mine did) they do not sell well because at the end of the day you are buying an old baseball and a story and with all the fraud going around (Halper etc) people just do not like shelling out big bucks for this type of stuff.

As a result, I would keep up with the research as long as it is fun and enjoyable for you and cherish the super cool item you have (you seem to very passionate about it and I like that), but dont plan your retirement yet.

Please do not think I am saying anything negative at all, I personally believe your item is probably as you state it is (probably not the last out ball because I have never seen or heard of an opposing player flipping a ball to a guy who made the last out ever in my life as a player/coach/fan spectator/historian, it just doesn't work like that in baseball) BUT, I think you have a really nice historical artifact that definately has ties to the 1917 World Series and you cant beat the price. I just wanted to relay my experiences with you so you can take it for what it is and think about it as you do your research and try to place a realistic value on the item.

Great find and I wish you nothing but the best in your research and eventual sale if that is your plan!

[Shoeless Moe]

...yah I'm more pumped about it, but realize it's not the holy grail.

Like u and others have said when/if I put it up for sale it's all up to the buyers, could be anywhere from $1000 to $2500 is my guess.

The Shoeless Joe tie obviously adds a lil more then any other World Series ball from that era (aside from that other one he was in), so that is nice.

But yep, any and all research will be fun and not too costly.


That's odd your ball went on the lower side at REA, I always think REA always getting the top prices, maybe not always the case. I believe a card talked about on the other side of the board went for way more on Ebay then what it sold for at REA, so u never know.

Heritage seems to be the place for game used balls, as they just sold a 1909 WS Ball for $2150, 1913 (signed by Tommy Connolly) for $4182, and then not to long ago 2 1919 WS balls sold in 2006 & 2010 for $2900 & 3600. So they seem to have the Game Used Ball market over REA.

But for the time being mine is priceless, but that'll change with time I'm sure : )


PS - For the record I too do not think either that it is the last out ball, I think it COULD be, but more then likely it's not and it is just a ball from that Series. I'm not naive, I know it's a long shot and most likely could never be proven. I will however be watching Ken Burns first couple innings of his series to see if he has any footage of last outs for the 1st 20 or so years of the World Series. Otherwise yep it'd come down to reading newspapers from each year and seeing if there is any mention, again a long long long shot. But I'll do it over time, for fun.

[David Atkatz]

You have to be very careful with Burns' footage. Quite often what is shown on the screen and what is discussed voice-over while the footage is shown are years apart.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

You have to be very careful with Burn's footage. Quite often what is shown on the screen and what is discussed voice-over while the footage is shown are years apart.

Very true. I caught that as well watching over the weekend.