advice Michael Jordan

[theshleps]

I gave a signed ud Michael Jordan baseball card to JSA as I wanted to sell it. It was an IP autograph at Arizona fall league- 100% legit. They rejected it. I only sent it as I want to sell it. If you were me would you submit to PSA or just try to sign without a LOA?

[packs]

I don't think you'll find many serious buyers willing to buy a Jordan without a cert.

[sbfinley]

There are plenty of Jordan collectors well enough comfortable with his signature that if it is good you can move it. Obviously your market, and the likely your price, would be larger with a cert. I've been looking for a Jordan baseball card auto for awhile, would love to see a scan. Lately I've seen JSA and PSA reject many of the big modern stars (Jordan, Harper, Trout, and lately Kris Bryant) if they comfortable with it. I had a Harper fail PSA that I knew was unquestionable good, but the signature was rushed and I get why they wouldn't cert it.

[theshleps]

Send me your email and I will send a scan once I get it back. May be a couple of weeks. Gotten in person by a friend of mine whose collection I bought all of 10+ years ago- another in person grapher like myself
any other serious inquiries send me emails too.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by theshleps

Gotten in person by a friend of mine whose collection I bought all of 10+ years ago

Well, then you didn't get it yourself. I've had a number of experiences with friends getting autographs that weren't genuine. Not malicious, usually just secretarial.

[mcgwirecom]

Another case of JSA not knowing everything and people getting screwed because of it. I have a Muhammad Ali glove signed at a show that they shot down so i can't sell it in an auction now. But they can put there cert on a forgery and it goes to auction like this one...
http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=91087

both items fake.

[theshleps]

not sure how he would have gone to Fall league got 1,000 cards signed and any were secretarial. All in ll I bought 10,000 cards from him and new him personally and this is the only one that has been questioned. All the others Jeter, Piazza, etc passed. I have been told that JSA routinely rejects Ali, Jordan etc. They recently rejected one I sent in and then I resent and it was approved by same authenticator. Just frustrating that they can reject real stuff which then becomes much harder to sell and at the same time autheiticate other items obviously fake
I trust people like Jim Stinson, Rich Simon etc much more and I have been collecting since 1967 and know a few things too. But the way it is you sometimes want to play the game to get a higher price
Once I get it back will post

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by theshleps

They recently rejected one I sent in and then I resent and it was approved by same authenticator.

Is there some type of refund you can get for this? That's insane. if I went to Burger King and ordered a cheeseburger and got a ham sandwich, would I have to pay for the wrong sandwich AND the replacement? Just another reason that third-party authentication is one of the worst things about this hobby.

In regards to them turning down modern guys like Harper, Trout, etc. I have a ton of in-person signatures that were signed before my eyes that I know would not pass because they don't look like the typical exemplar. How can so-called "experts" really be experts if they aren't aware of the hundreds of variations that can exist within one person's signature?

[packs]

People on this board told me they wouldn't believe my Koufax was signed by Koufax if I hadn't already said I had the ball signed myself. The doubt permeates every aspect of the hobby, not just TPA.

[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by dgo71

How can so-called "experts" really be experts if they aren't aware of the hundreds of variations that can exist within one person's signature?

I agree with you totally on this subject. I and many serious autograph collectors and dealers have been saying this very thing for years.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by packs

People on this board told me they wouldn't believe my Koufax was signed by Koufax if I hadn't already said I had the ball signed myself. The doubt permeates every aspect of the hobby, not just TPA.

True, but you didn't pay for the opinions of people on this board. In the case of TPA's, who charge a fee to provide a service, there should be no doubt. Otherwise why charge a premium for signatures that are slabbed? If the whole point is to "guarantee" authenticity, why even slab them to begin with if there's still doubt?

[packs]

I agree as well with your point. I feel as though if an opinion isn't rendered (i.e. they can't tell) then a refund is in order. But I also feel as though it is a benefit to buyers that TPA's are as strict as they are with highly forged signatures. But the change should be made to reflect that an I don't know is different than a No and in that case a refund should be made.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by dgo71

True, but you didn't pay for the opinions of people on this board. In the case of TPA's, who charge a fee to provide a service, there should be no doubt. Otherwise why charge a premium for signatures that are slabbed? If the whole point is to "guarantee" authenticity, why even slab them to begin with if there's still doubt?

There can never be "no doubt" unless you witnessed the signing yourself. The "guarantee" is that should ever an authenticated signature be proven fraudulent they will reimburse the cost you can prove you have in the item. I respect plenty of opinions on the board, but I doubt many if any would make you whole if they made a mistake.

[dgo71]

I completely understand that witnessing an item being signed is the only 100% way of proving authenticity. So by that same token, how could an authenticated signature ever be "proven" to be fraudulent? Why would "proof" of a fraudulent item be more iron-clad than "proof" of its authenticity? That's kind of my point, these are nothing more than opinions, and I don't see what makes a TPA's opinion worth the fees associated with their service or the mark-up on the re-sale of their authenticated items. If the main pro of a TPA is to offer peace of mind, and that peace of mind is really just an illusion at the end of the day, aren't they selling snake oil?

I mean, I get it from a seller's perspective, I can sell this DVD for $10, or I can put it in a fancy "special edition" tin with a couple knicky-knack bonuses and sell it for $30. But from a buyer's perspective I see TPA's as useless middlemen that only cause me to have to pay more for an item with the exact same assurance of authenticity of a raw item.

Sorry to go off topic OP!

[packs]

People may not like TPA's in their current state, but I believe there is a necessity to have a standard of opinion. Individuals who have been dealing for a long time are trusted resources. But there needs to be some third party standard set for the sake of buyers. A single person can be influenced.

[chaddurbin]

i've heard psa rejecting trouts in the past and bryants recently...but since jordan is a big ticket item (high authentication fees) i don't think they'd just randomly reject good jordans. we do have a jordan expert here maybe post a scan and he'll chime in.

and the "got it ip" line is one of the most abused lines used in this hobby. you just admitted now that it wasn't ip and you bought it 10 years ago...who's to say if your friend didn't use the same line but he really didn't obtain it himself.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i've heard psa rejecting trouts in the past and bryants recently...but since jordan is a big ticket item (high authentication fees) i don't think they'd just randomly reject good jordans. we do have a jordan expert here maybe post a scan and he'll chime in.

and the "got it ip" line is one of the most abused lines used in this hobby. you just admitted now that it wasn't ip and you bought it 10 years ago...who's to say if your friend didn't use the same line but he really didn't obtain it himself.

Actually what he said was "It was an IP autograph at Arizona fall league- 100% legit." He did not say that he got it in person. A minor point, but I believe a salient one.

[Bpm0014]

Jordan is a very tough sell without the cert. I have about 20-30 Jordan autographs, all in person, and have tried to sell some here without much success. My uncle does bodyguard work for him once a year for the last 15-20 years at a local charity golf event run by Mario Lemieux. I get 2-3 autographs a year from Jordan. It seems like the demand is great for autograph, but not so much without the cert....

[chaddurbin]

would love to own a signed '91 ud of him in the white sox uniform. remember ripping so many packs looking for that card...

[theshleps]

Those of us who are IP collectors who spend 6 weeks a year between fall league and spring training know each other very well and we see each other daily and help each other on sets etc. I know you guys do not know me tho people like Jim Stinson, Ron Gordon, etc know me well. When you are an IP collector you know which of the collectors there to trust and when my friend left the hobby and I bought all he only got stuff in person, not through trades or TTM or purchases as he NEVER did those. The fact JSA rejected it is meaningless as they have rejected many items many of us have gotten in person. I had them reject 2 Ichiro spring training autographs, only to accept them the 2nd time (same authenticator too), same with a Jeter and a few others. Will post the Jordan once it is returned to me. I don't need the $, just not interested in autographs outside of HOF, Jewish, and Beatles, so want to unload it at a fair price.
I wouldn't mind if a company always erred on the side of being cautious and rejected good ones at times but these guys also slab some pretty laughable vintage signed cards and then folks buy them

[drcy]

I don't know. A question is when they reject real autographs do the PSAs say "We can't verify this because we don't know or aren't sure" or do they say "This is fake." There's a difference.

No one is omniscient nor should be expected to be, and, in art authentication, it's perfectly acceptable to say "I don't know." If fact, you're taught to say you don't know when you don't know-- and obviously you shouldn't be issuing an LOA when you don't know. However, proclaiming a real item a forgery or a fake is considered about par with calling a forgery real.