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Old 05-23-2010, 10:03 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
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Default Wagner proof strip part II

In the other thread I posted about why the strip would be the way it is IF it's a pasteup from paper proofs. I also said I had some doubts about that.

So here's part II, some thoughts about if the strip is indeed a one piece printed strip. It'll go pretty far afield from just the strip, so I went with a new thread

Firstly, I don't think it really matters. The strip is unique, and if I had that sort of money to spend, I'd love to buy it. And have it in hand to study in detail.
Secondly, a lot of this is conjecture, and a bit of a stretch at that. I know it, flame away if needed, the asbestos suit awaits.

One of the things that makes me doubt the strip being a pasteup is the dividing lines between the cards. If you look closely, they're a bit wider at the bottom. That's more a trait of a printed line.
That it's 5 cards and 6 would seem to be an important T206 number I think isn't important. If it's one piece, it could easily have been cut down somewhere along the line.

And yet, those lines don;t appear on production t206s, and would seem to serve little or no purpose here.

I think I have an explanation
At a printers, a common cutter is a guillotine cutter. A stack of paper gets pushed against a fence and sideways against the side of the machine, a presser plate compresses it and holds it in place, and a blade slices off whatever sticks out. One of the traits of this sort of cutter is that it nearly always cuts nice square pieces.

But t206s often have a slight diamond cut. On a guillotine cutter that would require very sloppy work, or cards not printed straight on the paper.

There's a different type of cutter, one that's more suited to high production work like cards. In that cutter the sheet is fed between rollers that either draw the paper past the cutting blade, or that act as the cutting blade. Topps cards were cut this way for years, and commonly have diamond cuts.
Topps used blades, Opc sharp wires. Another method uses the wheels themselves to cut out a strip as wide as the wheel is thick.

I don't know for sure that American litho had that sort of cutter, but I feel pretty sure they did. The technology was old by that time, as it's related to stamp perforating machines. There's other traits, but it starts getting a bit more technical.

So the printed dividing lines could have served as lineup marks for the cutting process, and would have been cut out of the sheet as it was cut.

To make it more interesting, wider cutting wheels would cut a wider path and leave a narrower card. Like the American Beauty cards.

Anyone know offhand if AB did nonsports? And are they narrow too? Or are there nonsports printed by american litho that are narrow, and would fit in the time between the 350 and 460 series? Or just maybe the ABs were done consecutively using a nonstandard set of cutting wheels?

Fun stuff, to think the Wagner strip could show us something about how the production cards got done.

I've also considered that the dividing lines might be there to help someone see what an individual card looks like.

Steve B
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Old 05-23-2010, 10:19 PM
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Ted Zanidakis
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Default Steve

We have documented evidence that the first American Beauty 350 (frame) cards were marketed in the Summer of 1910.
From that Summer thru to the Fall....Cycle 350, Broad Leaf 350 and Drum cards were printed and issued. The American
Beauty 460 were issued at the end of the T206 run in the Spring of 1911.

We have no knowledge why the AB cards are narrower than all other T206's.


TED Z
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  #3  
Old 05-23-2010, 10:21 PM
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Clayton
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I like your theories Steve.It sounds like you really know about printing, from a professional point of view.I do not know about the AB cards,but I just wanted to thank you for the "food for thought". Sometimes it's easy to get lost in some of the speculation, and I no doubt, can come up with some of my own "interesting theories",,but it really helps when people who know the printing processes the way you do present theories( I'm assuming you do or have done this work professionally?). Anyhow- thanks.

Sincerely,Clayton
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Old 05-23-2010, 11:11 PM
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i have heard before that some cards are "wire cut" rather then guillotine cut. o-pee-chee cards are notorious for rough cuts when the wire used to get dull.

I did work briefly at a printing place where a guillotine cutter was used and it was rather thick (1/8 inch). It wouldn't seem like the cards on the proof would be cut with one of those, they look too close together.

a guillotine cutter would generally have edging that would hold whatever was being cut in place which makes me think a guilltine might not have been used at this time period. Im not sure things were completely automated back then.


Does anyone know for a fact what the cutting procedure was in 1910?? we can speculate based on what happens now, but how about 100 years ago?
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Old 05-23-2010, 11:16 PM
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5t3v3...D4.w50n
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Good theories Steve. But I would have to disagree with you on the lines, if what you're saying is that the T206 uncut sheets had the lines between the cards.

You mention the diamond cuts, which as everyone knows, is a big "problem" with the cards. Along with the diamond cuts, another common factor is that many T206s are oversized. If the uncut sheets had the lines between the cards, as guides for the cutting, then these oversized (horizontally) cards should still have a line on at least one side. This would be just like 1968 and 1970 Topps baseball cards. It is not uncommon to see narrow white lines on the edges of cards that weren't cut correctly in these two Topps sets.

The fact that we've never encountered an oversized T206 with a line on the side, would seem to indicate that there were no lines to begin with.

Steve
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Old 05-23-2010, 11:47 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Yes that's one of the problems with the theory. No cards with guidelines.
It may be just possible that cards could have been cut so that the guidelines always got removed.

One of the things I want to do is to make some measurements of the scan to see if this just might be possible.

Ted has already put a fine cap on any thought of the AB cards being made consecutively. They definetly weren't, so the idea of them being made on a particular set of cutters that was only used for a certain time is out. And a different machine that was only used for AB cards makes so little sense it's probably out as well.(And still leaves a nearly unanswerable "why")

I don't recall seeing any cards cut offcenter side to side enough to show the next card, although I've got this nagging feeling I'm wrong on that.


I know enough printing to get myself into this sort of trouble.
A couple years in a shop that cross trained everyone. So I've actually run many of the small production machines. Plus I studied CAD/CAM, and did 11 years of industrial machinery repair.

Everything is the way it is because of how it's made. Make it differently, and the end result will be different in some way.

Steve B
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:25 AM
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Frank Kealoha Ward
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Someone need to go look at the damn thing in person and see if the lines are drawn in, printed in, or a seam where they spliced proofs together.

My guess... they are hand drawn lines to show how large a cut card will look when finished.

Last edited by fkw; 05-24-2010 at 01:26 AM.
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  #8  
Old 05-24-2010, 03:22 AM
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Kevin S.
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Let's make this a bit more complicated...like it really needs to be.

If you englarge the scan you will see that there are an additional set of vertical lines in on each side of the strong center lines that run along with the printers marks. There are also hortizonal lines on the top and bottom of each card, again running along the printers marks. They are faint but there nonetheless.

If cut on these lines, it would make some very thin bordered cards. Your guess is as good (probably better) than mine.

Also, along with missing blue, it seems all cards are missing some or
most the red. This is most evident on the faces...lips, cheeks, shading etc.

They all look uniquely similar.
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