Hey, pennant guys

[ooo-ribay]

76.7% = a lot of damn football pennants!

[bocca001]

[QUOTE=Fballguy;2174477]Looks great Marc. Interesting too that the Niners version is the only one that I can recall seeing in which the player graphic overlays the font.

Rob- I think that it is just variation in quality control. I've seen one without the spine/graphic overlay. Overall, this one is in great shape given the age, from spine to tip

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

76.7% = a lot of damn football pennants!

There's 1,028 pennants on the site and I have about 250 more I need to put on there. Just need to make the time.

[Fballguy]

[QUOTE=bocca001;2174518]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Looks great Marc. Interesting too that the Niners version is the only one that I can recall seeing in which the player graphic overlays the font.

Rob- I think that it is just variation in quality control. I've seen one without the spine/graphic overlay. Overall, this one is in great shape given the age, from spine to tip

Actually...I was referring to the players hand overlaying the "S". This is the only version of the stiff arm pennant I've seen like that and all Niners versions look like this. Do you think that was intentional or a quality control issue? Maybe in the 40s, red felt only came in one size and it was a few inches too small so they scrunched everything up?

[bocca001]

Ah... I thought you mean the spine. Had not noticed the S.

I did spend some time on your website today looking at all of the other 1940s pro teams with these pennants, like the Brooklyn Dodgers and Boston Yankees and Chicago Rockets. Seems to date these clearly to the 1940s +/- few years.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Ah... I thought you mean the spine. Had not noticed the S.

I did spend some time on your website today looking at all of the other 1940s pro teams with these pennants, like the Brooklyn Dodgers and Boston Yankees and Chicago Rockets. Seems to date these clearly to the 1940s +/- few years.

Yeah...I typically attribute them from mid 40s to early 50s. A lot of AAFC teams represented (1946-49) and there's a Dallas Texans version, who only existed for one season in 1952.

[bocca001]

What are the teams represented on the baseball sliders? Do they help ID the years (e.g., Mil vs. Boston Braves; Browns vs. Orioles)? I know that the NY Giants have one, but not the SF Giants.

[ooo-ribay]

^^^^^ Is that pennant black? If so, I like it more than my blues….a lot more.

[bocca001]

It's dark blue

[ooo-ribay]

It would look good in black.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by bocca001

What are the teams represented on the baseball sliders? Do they help ID the years (e.g., Mil vs. Boston Braves; Browns vs. Orioles)? I know that the NY Giants have one, but not the SF Giants.

I've just had a quick look at my catalog. Here's examples that I see with this graphic or close variations.

• Yankees
• Boston Braves
• Phillies
• Senators
• Brookly Dodgers
• Orioles (The Yellow Orioles Pennant is from 1947)
• Red Sox
• NY Giants
• Cubs

I think it's fair to say that they dates from the 40s - the early 50s. The Braves moved from Boston in 1952. The Dodgers and the Giants moved from NY in 1957.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I've just had a quick look at my catalog. Here's examples that I see with this graphic or close variations.

• Yankees
• Boston Braves
• Phillies
• Senators
• Brookly Dodgers
• Orioles (The Yellow Orioles Pennant is from 1947)
• Red Sox
• NY Giants
• Cubs

I think it's fair to say that they dates from the 40s - the early 50s. The Braves moved from Boston in 1952. The Dodgers and the Giants moved from NY in 1957.

Hmmm … Senators is WGN. Braves and Red Sox are Ad Flag. The Giants at the bottom of column 2 is a seperate unknown company. The others all seem to be the same company. This includes all the late 40s team pennants with names like this one

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Hmmm … Senators is WGN. Braves and Red Sox are Ad Flag. The Giants at the bottom of column 2 is a seperate unknown company. The others all seem to be the same company. This includes all the late 40s team pennants with names like this one

I was gonna say the same….similar motifs but definitely different makers.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Hmmm … Senators is WGN. Braves and Red Sox are Ad Flag. The Giants at the bottom of column 2 is a seperate unknown company. The others all seem to be the same company. This includes all the late 40s team pennants with names like this one

What's nice about the this 1950 NL champs pennant is the amount of hand written script utilized on it. When I'm trying to ID a pennant, I look closely at the artwork because I know, more often than not, the same artist produced the art featured across the series; and artwork includes scripts utilized. In the 1940s, the artist couldn't just dial-in whatever font they desired like you can on a word processor today; they had to make the font. It's extremely personal to the artist.

For example, if you look at all the pennants from Trench's stadium pennant series in the 1950s, you'll see the same unique script utilized for the ballpark name, e.g., "Sportsman's Park"; "Milwaukee County Stadium," etc. That script is essentially Trench's signature.

Your 1950 NL champs pennant features an entirely different script. It's definitely not by Trench's artist. It does appear similar to WGN's, as WGN's ca. 1950s ASG pennants featured a similar cursive script. Greg, compare WGN's 1950 ASG pennant featuring Comiskey Park and the AL/NL "book" roster. Similar cursive scripts, right? But compare the names "Roberts" and "Hammer" ... although similar, they appear different to me. Different "R" and different "H" as best I can tell from pictures....

Maybe you can confirm by giving us a side-by-side comparison, since I don't own either pennant?

Anyway, my suggestion: follow this unique script to a known pennant by maker, and you'll have solved the greatest pennant mystery of the 20th century.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

What's nice about the this 1950 NL champs pennant is the amount of hand written script utilized on it. When I'm trying to ID a pennant, I look closely at the artwork because I know, more often than not, the same artist produced the art featured across the series; and artwork includes scripts utilized. In the 1940s, the artist couldn't just dial-in whatever font they desired like you can on a word processor today; they had to make the font. It's extremely personal to the artist.

For example, if you look at all the pennants from Trench's stadium pennant series in the 1950s, you'll see the same unique script utilized for the ballpark name, e.g., "Sportsman's Park"; "Milwaukee County Stadium," etc. That script is essentially Trench's signature.

Your 1950 NL champs pennant features an entirely different script. It's definitely not by Trench's artist. It does appear similar to WGN's, as WGN's ca. 1950s ASG pennants featured a similar cursive script. Greg, compare WGN's 1950 ASG pennant featuring Comiskey Park and the AL/NL "book" roster. Similar cursive scripts, right? But compare the names "Roberts" and "Hammer" ... although similar, they appear different to me. Different "R" and different "H" as best I can tell from pictures....

Maybe you can confirm by giving us a side-by-side comparison, since I don't own either pennant?

Anyway, my suggestion: follow this unique script to a known pennant by maker, and you'll have solved the greatest pennant mystery of the 20th century.

What rules out WGN is the way the spine is stitched. I don’t know how to describe it but it appears to be “double stitched” on the back, for reinforcement, which is why you rarely see loose threads on these. Keezer, Ad Flag and ASCO had similar stitching. Trench and WGN are different in that regard. I’ll have to take pics when I return home.

[thetahat]

Yikes. Definitely not vintage.

[thetahat]

Cool pic of Jackie right after his retirement. But completely wiped out by the fact that someone applied tape to that beauty of a pennant! Noooooooooooo!

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

What rules out WGN is the way the spine is stitched. I don’t know how to describe it but it appears to be “double stitched” on the back, for reinforcement, which is why you rarely see loose threads on these. Keezer, Ad Flag and ASCO had similar stitching. Trench and WGN are different in that regard. I’ll have to take pics when I return home.

Confirmed. Different artists. The upper case "J"s and "R"s do not match.

The mystery continues....

[thetahat]

It seems as if the sliding runner pennant company is in the “top 3” as far as quantity made (guess, of course). Trench and WGN being the other two. Next tier is Keezer, Ad Flag, ASCO.

Anyone get that beautiful orange Orioles scroll pennant that just sold on eBay?

[matty39]

St Paul Saints

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by matty39

St Paul Saints

Such a beautiful display! I was the last-second underbidder on that red St. Paul Saints pennant just over a year or so ago. I love the entire collection!

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Yikes. Definitely not vintage.

I must admit, I listed one of these exact pennants as ‘vintage’ a few months ago as I bought it with actual vintage pennants. After your input I changed the description and price. It’s great there is a community that self regulates and helps correct inaccurate postings!

[thetahat]

There were a batch of older repros of defunct teams made around the late 1970s … the construction of the pennant dates them. The Browns and Pilots are always auctioned as vintage and I’m pretty sure the book includes them. Senators, Boston Braves, Phila A’s … in fact I think the seller of the Colts is selling all of these as vintage. And I think Mark said it before, this could be a Xmas gift from wife to husband, neither of whom may ever know …

Of course it’s understandable how most people might not know … I have reached out to other sellers before, most appreciate it but some take offense and insist they are authentic.

[thetahat]

These pennants also fit the “sliding runner” style pennant, almost definitely the same company. This hopefully gives Mark the opportunity to repost his sweet Brooklyn Dodgers pennant …

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by matty39

St Paul Saints

That is a truly amazing selection of Pennants and a Great way of Displaying them

That Really Catches the eye

Wow and Congrats

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by matty39

St Paul Saints

Ditto, that’s a super cool display. Many of those must be lone survivors.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by matty39

St Paul Saints

Wow, what a great display. So many Ferguson Bakery pennants in one place!

With regards to the sliding runner, is the players number meaningful? I've noticed that on many of these the runner has the #4. On others like the NY Giants below and the St Paul Saints, it's the #7.

Knowing that different pennant manufacturers "borrowed" artwork from each other, could that imply a 2nd manufacturer?

[ooo-ribay]

Kind of a funny story of a screw up that turned out OK....a couple of weeks ago, I mentioned I was bidding on an Inside the Park pennant...I didn't win but Bocca alerted me that Keith Javic had the same pennant in his Etsy store. I immediately jumped on it. I didn't love the pennant but it was a new one for my Giants collection and pickings have been slim. A few days later, while the pennant was enroute, I was scrolling through my memorabilia pictures, looking for something else. I scrolled past a picture of the pennant I was waiting on. I thought, "Oh, wow, that's a decent picture of the pennant I'm waiting on...man, that looks like our table...that looks like my off brand tape measure beside it....SH*T! I already have that pennant!"

The funny thing is, I even posted pictures here on 8/15/19 (post #2433). I have three spreadsheets of acquisitions where this pennant should be entered. It appears in none of them. I have no idea who I got it from or what I paid. Keith was gracious enough to accept a return . Another, more attractive NY Giants pennant is on its way from him. Keith and Bocca both said they have mistakenly bought duplicates before, so I'm not the only dope.

This is one unattractive pennant, huh? I'm thinking the White Sox must be by the same maker. Is it my imagination or were the 1940's a time for particularly unattractive pennants?

[ooo-ribay]

And there's this...I know awhile back, we were posting "pennants in pictures." Here's an attractive young lady at the 1962 World Series.

[butchie_t]

Ok group,

After reviewing every post in this thread and consulting with two of the gentleman here (thank you both again for your collective inputs). I decided to conduct a highly scientific and very controlled (cough) experiment in my lab hidden deep within the bowels of my home (laundry room).

I went to my local antique store in search of an example pennant that closely matched the fabric of my 78 Washington Bullets Championship Pennant. After searching this huge place for over 2 hours I finally came across my test 'pennant'. Ernie from Sesame Street will have to do actually, I was freaking tired of searching for a danged hammered pennant.

Funny thing about this search, I have been in this antique store many of times and pennants abound of all different types. From baseball, football, and those danged vacation place pennants. This time not a one to be found. The two trashed pennants I did come across the owner wanted stupid prices for. I wanted to maybe spend around 5 bucks.

So I found Ernie and he was.....5 bucks and the fabric was close enough for me.

First two pictures are front and back of Ernie (please if this thing was rare or whatever, I don't want to know about it....ever. Because as you can see in the following photos Ernie now has a split personality.

After consulting with other highly regarded scientist in their respective fields (Dr. ooo-ribay and Dr. Duluth Eskimo). Thank you gentlemen for your cleaning acumen and direction.

My experiment consisted of Retro Clean and Oxi Clean. I found a bin top that fit right over my deep well and that became my vat for the experiment. I soaked both halves twice in each solution, following the instructions on the back of each of the packages.

You can see my highly controlled vat that Ernie half is immersed and the very technical weights I used to keep the man down! He was soaked twice over two days using this method.

Th next photos shows dirty Ernie next to Retro Clean Ernie (front and back).
A notable difference for sure but still would need some additional soaks to finish the job. But good enough for this controlled experiment.

I skip ahead to the end result photos of the Oxi Clean soaks of the dirty Ernie in the previous photo and the comparison of the Oxi Clean Ernie and Retro Clean Ernie.

A noticeable difference of clean between the two Ernies. Both front and back.

After careful consideration and munching on some of the ruffles chips in the bag on the dryer, I have come to the conclusion that Oxi Clean will be the method of cleaning I will use for the Bullets Championship pennant (shown below).

I do not have a large enough vat to soak the pennant in laying down and the bathtub is not an option so I will use a modified Dr. ooo-ribay method.

I will use a spray bottle full of Oxi Clean and hang the pennant much the same way in my shower and spray and rinse the pennant over a number of days as long as it takes to get the pennant whiter and brighter. I won't be covering the edge of the pennant as I won't be using any bleach for this cleaning.

One thing throughout this controlled process is that at no time did Ernies red color ever run or any of the colors ever run. So that is encouraging to me and I believe I should expect the same results on my Bullets pennant. But I will watch closely regardless to make sure I stop if I see any bleeding. And will report the results in this thread in separate postings.

I hope you all have enjoyed my technical paper and examples of my masterful work. I have fun presenting it. Regards, a nut-job from Colorado.

NOTE: At no time were any actual muppets killed, maimed, or injured in this experiment. We used only a representation of said muppet and at no time in the future of any Sesame Street watchers will you ever see a Ernie muppet stitched together. -The Management

Cheers!

B.T.

[ooo-ribay]

You are taking this very seriously, Professor Butch! I think Oxyclean is the way to go. Soak the crap out of it! My brown Giants pennant was immersed for hours! Looking forward to seeing the results!

[ooo-ribay]

Now...let's talk about the Post Office...

The pennant I sent back to Keith Javic went from Salt Lake City to Philadephia in 3 days. Meanwhile, the new one he's sending to me is still in Philly after seven days. WTF???

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Now...let's talk about the Post Office...

The pennant I sent back to Keith Javic went from Salt Lake City to Philadephia in 3 days. Meanwhile, the new one he's sending to me is still in Philly after seven days. WTF???

I swear it is well passed time to resurrect the Pony Express. At least they delivered.

[ooo-ribay]

Why is the bathtub not an option, Butch? Wife?

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Why is the bathtub not an option, Butch? Wife?

Elderly Mother in Law. Don't want to muck up her space.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Now...let's talk about the Post Office...

The pennant I sent back to Keith Javic went from Salt Lake City to Philadephia in 3 days. Meanwhile, the new one he's sending to me is still in Philly after seven days. WTF???

Unfortunately that's par for the course these days.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

There were a batch of older repros of defunct teams made around the late 1970s … the construction of the pennant dates them. The Browns and Pilots are always auctioned as vintage and I’m pretty sure the book includes them. Senators, Boston Braves, Phila A’s … in fact I think the seller of the Colts is selling all of these as vintage. And I think Mark said it before, this could be a Xmas gift from wife to husband, neither of whom may ever know …

Of course it’s understandable how most people might not know … I have reached out to other sellers before, most appreciate it but some take offense and insist they are authentic.

Once you've seen enough, these stand out like a sore thumb. I think half of the sellers know but still pedal them as vintage, while the other half simply don't sell enough to know the difference.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Once you've seen enough, these stand out like a sore thumb. I think half of the sellers know but still pedal them as vintage, while the other half simply don't sell enough to know the difference.

There is a 1958 Corpus Christi Hooks pennant on ebay, right now. The seller calls it both a SGA and vintage. I guess it’s a vintage, not old, SGA.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Butch,
Glad one of them worked. You’ll have to post the results.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

Elderly Mother in Law. Don't want to muck up her space.

The more I think about this, Butch....

How about soaking it in your shower pan (if you can plug the drain)? I really think it should soak in the Oxyclean. If not the shower pan, I would lay it on a non-porous surface....countertop, car hood, etc.

[ooo-ribay]

Picked up a NY Giants pennant. This one shares characteristics with a few others that have the same big "G" with either "NY" or "New York" within. Don't we know the maker of the generic stadium (in this case, the Polo Grounds) one (Trench?)?

edit: I guess the G’s are all slightly different.

[butchie_t]

The results of my Bullets Championship Pennant cleaning.

Ultimately I ended up soaking it but in a suboptimal (not laid out flat) way. That was the last soak I did and ended up doing that a couple of times yesterday.

While the blue border took the brunt of the cleaning, I am overall very pleased with the end result. I actually was not paying attention to the fading of the blue border and this is fixable if I choose to do so in the future.

The events follow:

You can see from the first picture how ugly this thing is.

I took a spray bottle and added Oxy Clean to hot water and commenced to drowning it rather liberally front and back. The first time I rinsed it after the cleaning it has a horrible stink to it. That went away after a few rinse-clean cycles.

It was getting clean but not clean enough for me as it seemed that all the gunk was draining down to the tip but never really getting fully clean.

I did the majority of the spraying and cleaning on Friday-Saturday. It got to a point where I had to do something different as it was just not getting completely cleaned.

I ended up using the vat that I used to clean Ernie in and folded (blasphemy I know) the tip over right between the e and the t in bullets. Then gave it two long soaks on Sunday. Around 5PM I inspected the results and was satisfied that I wasn't going to do any additional cleaning at that point. I rinsed it and set it on a couple of towels to dry out overnight.

The border certainly faded but again, I am good with that and can fix it in the future if need be.

Bottom line. I will definitely use my MIL tub next time as I really need that sort of space. I have a Redskins pennant, Super Bowl XVII, that can stand a cleaning and will use the tub for that one for sure.

Last picture shows it next to my regular Bullets pennant. As you can see, the championship one is even brighter than that one. But I won't be cleaning the regular one, it is nice enough as it is.

Now I have to come across a Senators 1924 pennant, I have found a reproduction one and that will more than likely have to do!

Thanks for all the assistance and here are the pictures of the process.

[ooo-ribay]

The pennant came out great with the exception of the border

At the risk of being expelled from this group, I have two spine suggestions:

Blue sharpie (I’ve done this) or blue RIT dye, dabbed from a Q-tip.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

The pennant came out great with the exception of the border

At the risk of being expelled from this group, I have two spine suggestions:

Blue sharpie (I’ve done this) or blue RIT dye, dabbed from a Q-tip.

HAhaahaha, great minds think alike. I was considering the RIT dye method. I figured the blue sharpie would bleed maybe too much. And maybe I could better control the dye.

Too funny! A most excellent answer Dr. ooo-ribay. After all, this one is not ever gonna get sold now that I have it in my clutches, ain't going anywhere!

Cheers,

B.T.

With apologies to the greater group.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

HAhaahaha, great minds think alike. I was considering the RIT dye method. I figured the blue sharpie would bleed maybe too much. And maybe I could better control the dye.

Too funny! A most excellent answer Dr. ooo-ribay. After all, this one is not ever gonna get sold now that I have it in my clutches, ain't going anywhere!

Cheers,

B.T.

With apologies to the greater group.

Speaking of a ‘24 Senators pennant …

[butchie_t]

Thanks, at least I know what one looks like. Owning one will be a different story though.

Awesome pennant for sure.

Cheers,

B. T.

[bocca001]

Just arrived. Hard to find in black. Oooribay calls these cartoon font pennants.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Just arrived. Hard to find in black. Oooribay calls these cartoon font pennants.

I like how you photograph your pennants. Do you use a black background or do you somehow photoshop it?

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Picked up a NY Giants pennant. This one shares characteristics with a few others that have the same big "G" with either "NY" or "New York" within. Don't we know the maker of the generic stadium (in this case, the Polo Grounds) one (Trench?)?

edit: I guess the G’s are all slightly different.

Rob, it's my belief that the maker of your bottom two pennants featuring the generic stadium scene (here, "Polo Grounds") is Trench. What's interesting about these two is they're monochrome; and every other I've seen featuring this artwork was multicolored.

Typically these stadium scene pennants were made on a 3/4 size format: 8" x 26".

The top two closely resemble the text of the Trench ones below. Good observation. They may have altered the text ever so slightly to print these on a bigger, full size pennant. Are they indeed bigger?

[bocca001]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I like how you photograph your pennants. Do you use a black background or do you somehow photoshop it?

I've been photographing them on my ping pong table. For some reason, the pictures come out better when the lights are off in the room (with no flash). My iphone takes decent pictures in darkish environments. I used to use a lighter background, but I've been liking the darker one lately. I think it makes the colors stand out more.