Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

[benjulmag]

PSA to me bears a lot of similarities to Coaches Corner. The latter as one will recall defended its authentication of bogus autographs by saying all they were doing were rendering good faith opinions.

IMO, PSA's opinions as manifested by the high grades (e.g., 8s and higher) it has given certain vintage issues (e.g., T206s) is no different than the opinions Coaches Corner has given to the items it authenticates. In regard to the latter, my understanding is that the overwhelming consensus of experienced hobbyists is that the people who run Coaches Corner cannot in reality be so stupid, and that to the contrary they are engaging in out and out fraud.

How does this relate to PSA? IMO the overwhelming consensus of those of us who (i) have been around before cards had real value, (ii) attended the card shows of that era, (iii) know how cards were distributed and collected, and (iv) have seen/heard of the condition of the cards in raw finds that have surfaced over the years believe that no competent grading company can be so stupid as to believe many of the cards it assigns high grades to can possibly be unaltered when submitted for grading.

So, what is it? Are the people at PSA overseeing those graders who are churning out those high grades for those cards, and in the process perpetuating the economic viability of the card registry, really that stupid, or is it something else?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

PSA to me bears a lot of similarities to Coaches Corner. The latter as one will recall defended its authentication of bogus autographs by saying all they were doing were rendering good faith opinions.

IMO, PSA's opinions as manifested by the high grades (e.g., 8s and higher) it has given certain vintage issues (e.g., T206s) is no different than the opinions Coaches Corner has given to the items it authenticates. In regard to the latter, my understanding is that the overwhelming consensus of experienced hobbyists is that the people who run Coaches Corner cannot in reality be so stupid, and that to the contrary they are engaging in out and out fraud.

How does this relate to PSA? IMO the overwhelming consensus of those of us who (i) have been around before cards had real value, (ii) attended the card shows of that era, (iii) know how cards were distributed and collected, and (iv) have seen/heard of the condition of the cards in raw finds that have surfaced over the years believe that no competent grading company can be so stupid as to believe many of the cards it assigns high grades to can possibly be unaltered when submitted for grading.

So, what is it? Are the people at PSA overseeing those graders who are churning out those high grades for those cards, and in the process perpetuating the economic viability of the card registry, really that stupid, or is it something else?

You aren't giving stupidity it's fair credence.

[perezfan]

“So, what is it? Are the people at PSA overseeing those graders who are churning out those high grades for those cards, and in the process perpetuating the economic viability of the card registry, really that stupid, or is it something else?”

Obviously it’s more “something else” than stupid. A good beginning would be to stop taking in cards from known trimmers and doctors.

Yet PSA’s list of “Recommended Dealers” still endorses Dennis Pevarnick and other known card doctors. If PSA really wanted to engage in cleaning things up, they would take a few obvious proactive steps.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=3

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by perezfan

“So, what is it? Are the people at PSA overseeing those graders who are churning out those high grades for those cards, and in the process perpetuating the economic viability of the card registry, really that stupid, or is it something else?”

Obviously it’s more “something else” than stupid. A good beginning would be to stop taking in cards from known trimmers and doctors.

Yet PSA’s list of “Recommended Dealers” still endorses Dennis Pevarnick and other known card doctors. If PSA really wanted to engage in cleaning things up, they would take a few obvious proactive steps.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=3

Pevarnick is still trimming, still grading through PSA, and still selling cards for thousands through major auction houses.
And now PSA is decertifying the cert numbers from the slabs the cards were originally in. Pretty galling for the "Never get cheated!" market leader.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=4

Not a whole lot different with the new private ownership group, or Mr. Genamint. They have been assimilated by the Borg. (Not really a Trekkie; did I get that joke right?)

[SAllen2556]

The sports collectibles industry is one that requires no education or licensure to participate, has no regulation, has no governing body to oversee even its largest sellers and dealers, has no real penalties for getting caught committing fraud, garners little to no interest from federal authorities or any other policing agency, and has customers who tend to look the other way even when outlandish criminal acts are committed.

Either accept it or take up another hobby because this one has always been full of shady people and probably always will. I hear woodworking is very rewarding.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

The sports collectibles industry is one that requires no education or licensure to participate, has no regulation, has no governing body to oversee even its largest sellers and dealers, has no real penalties for getting caught committing fraud, garners little to no interest from federal authorities or any other policing agency, and has customers who tend to look the other way even when outlandish criminal acts are committed.

Either accept it or take up another hobby because this one has always been full of shady people and probably always will. I hear woodworking is very rewarding.

Perfectly Said....that’s just it. No sugar coating needed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Perfectly Said....that’s just it. No sugar coating needed.

I disagree somewhat, there certainly was (if indeed it's over and it may not be) a significant FBI investigation into the trimming scandal. It's not fair to say the government has "little to no interest." There was also a significant investigation of "Copperfield," the guy from Mexico allegedly selling cards in resealed or fake slabs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Pevarnick is still trimming, still grading through PSA, and still selling cards for thousands through major auction houses.
And now PSA is decertifying the cert numbers from the slabs the cards were originally in. Pretty galling for the "Never get cheated!" market leader.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=4

Not a whole lot different with the new private ownership group, or Mr. Genamint. They have been assimilated by the Borg. (Not really a Trekkie; did I get that joke right?)

Pete Townsend.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Pete Townsend.

"Say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss. We won't get fooled again."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Yoda

"Say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss. We won't get fooled again."

Close enough.
Who but Roger Daltrey could sing that? Not sure anyone else even tried to cover that song.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by swarmee

And now PSA is decertifying the cert numbers from the slabs the cards were originally in.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=4

An prefect example of why it is so dangerous to believe everything one reads...especially on a hobby chat board. That statement is absolutely not accurate if you read this post https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=244.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

An prefect example of why it is so dangerous to believe everything one reads...especially on a hobby chat board. That statement is absolutely not accurate if you read this post https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=244.

OK. Seems more likely that the benevolent trimmer may have sent back in the flips to have them removed from the pop report. Good thing that's been solved.
Crux of the matter: Cards broken from slabs. Cards altered. Cards given number grades by PSA. Cards sold for thousands by Heritage. PSA knows the score. Both they and Heritage were informed of the cards while up for auction. Did any get pulled?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by swarmee

OK. Seems more likely that the benevolent trimmer may have sent back in the flips to have them removed from the pop report. Good thing that's been solved.
Crux of the matter: Cards broken from slabs. Cards altered. Cards given number grades by PSA. Cards sold for thousands by Heritage. PSA knows the score. Both they and Heritage were informed of the cards while up for auction. Did any get pulled?

Don't disagree but it is a better look when one is accurate. The statement I highlighted was not factual. I did not dispute the rest of your post.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

PSA to me bears a lot of similarities to Coaches Corner. The latter as one will recall defended its authentication of bogus autographs by saying all they were doing were rendering good faith opinions.

Good analogy.

It's amazing that over a year has passed since the Blowout threads exposed widespread card doctoring and yet PSA appears to be stronger than ever. The CU stock is now over $43 - which is about double of the stock price when the scandal broke.

Sadly, it now appears very little will come of this. We recently learned that PSA will not buy back the doctored cards, but rather tell the consumers to the settle up with the seller. PSA continues to ban and silence collectors on their message boards who publicly acknowledge the problem. The outed card doctors, if banned, will likely use "fronts" to submit doctored cards to PSA and collectors and investors will continue to spend millions of dollars on doctored cards with not a clue they've been duped. In short it's utterly sickening how a select group of people have enriched themselves using this deplorable business model.