Do Roger Maris or Albert Belle belong in the HOF

[familytoad]

The writers and committees have had 50 years to elect Maris and never did.
That is very telling.
(We cannot elect him from Net54 either)

Players with great seasons or memorable achievements get their attention in the Hall already, they don’t necessarily deserve a career award like the HOF election.

Belle isn’t a HOFer either. He doesn’t have much of an argument for his career numbers or fame factor. There is at least a couple dozen guys who have some argument, but not him.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by familytoad

The writers and committees have had 50 years to elect Maris and never did.
That is very telling.
(We cannot elect him from Net54 either)

Players with great seasons or memorable achievements get their attention in the Hall already, they don’t necessarily deserve a career award like the HOF election.

Belle isn’t a HOFer either. He doesn’t have much of an argument for his career numbers or fame factor. There is at least a couple dozen guys who have some argument, but not him.

Belle's argument is that he was an elite hitter for a decade before his career was ended by a severe injury. He played 10 full seasons and averaged 40 homers every 162. There are plenty of other guys who had careers shortened by injury or death but are in the Hall. Addie Joss, Sandy Koufax, and Kirby Puckett to name three.

The idea that he didn't play long enough or doesn't have the career numbers holds no water. He meets the Hall criteria and his career was ended by injury. If Belle was just pretty good or whatever (Don Mattingly), then OK. But he wasn't. He was elite.

[pokerplyr80]

Yea I'd have to say yes to Belle and no to Maris. His last 9 seasons he had 100 or more RBIs. Has anyone ever done this and not made the HOF?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Yea I'd have to say yes to Belle and no to Maris. His last 9 seasons he had 100 or more RBIs. Has anyone ever done this and not made the HOF?

Joe Carter had 10 seasons of 100 RBIs and another with 98. Is he a Hofer too?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Joe Carter had 10 seasons of 100 RBIs and another with 98. Is he a Hofer too?

No comparison between Belle and Carter.

Carter
19.6 career WAR / 21.5 7yr-peak WAR / 20.5 JAWS
Belle
40.1 career WAR / 36.0 7yr-peak WAR / 38.0 JAWS

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No comparison between Belle and Carter.

Carter
19.6 career WAR / 21.5 7yr-peak WAR / 20.5 JAWS
Belle
40.1 career WAR / 36.0 7yr-peak WAR / 38.0 JAWS

I was replying to someone using RBIs, which is a flawed stat on its own, to make a HOF case for Belle. Bob Johnson had 8 100 RBI seasons + 92 & 93 RBI seasons. He was an 8 time all star. He had a similarly short career with equal peak to Belle (higher WAR and JAWS). Johnson also had a career OPS+ of 139 which is only slightly less than Belle's 144. Neither Johnson nor Carter are close to HOF. They also weren't known cheaters. When dealing with the Veteran's Committee, it is better to be a nice guy like Baines than a jerk like Belle. Corking Bats + being a jerk = no HOF when your career was marginal (low career WAR & low 7 year peak WAR).

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by rats60

I was replying to someone using RBIs, which is a flawed stat on its own, to make a HOF case for Belle. Bob Johnson had 8 100 RBI seasons + 92 & 93 RBI seasons. He was an 8 time all star. He had a similarly short career with equal peak to Belle (higher WAR and JAWS). Johnson also had a career OPS+ of 139 which is only slightly less than Belle's 144. Neither Johnson nor Carter are close to HOF. They also weren't known cheaters. When dealing with the Veteran's Committee, it is better to be a nice guy like Baines than a jerk like Belle. Corking Bats + being a jerk = no HOF when your career was marginal (low career WAR & low 7 year peak WAR).

The RBIs were what stood out when I googled his stats. Others were impressive as well. They may be a flawed stat according to some new modern metric, but I will take home runs, batting average, and RBIs over war, jaws, or whatever else some millenials will come up with next.

[BuckiGuy]

Originally Posted by rats60

Joe Carter had 10 seasons of 100 RBIs and another with 98. Is he a Hofer too?

If Joe Carter played in New York, Chicago, or some other major market for the moajority of his career instead of in front of 8,000 fans at old Cleveland Municiple Stadium he would absolutely be in. If he played in the ESPN and Fox Sports era of today, he’d be in.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Yea I'd have to say yes to Belle and no to Maris. His last 9 seasons he had 100 or more RBIs. Has anyone ever done this and not made the HOF?

Hodges had 7 in a row not in off the top of my head.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Belle's argument is that he was an elite hitter for a decade before his career was ended by a severe injury. He played 10 full seasons and averaged 40 homers every 162. There are plenty of other guys who had careers shortened by injury or death but are in the Hall. Addie Joss, Sandy Koufax, and Kirby Puckett to name three.

The idea that he didn't play long enough or doesn't have the career numbers holds no water. He meets the Hall criteria and his career was ended by injury. If Belle was just pretty good or whatever (Don Mattingly), then OK. But he wasn't. He was elite.

The argument for Belle is Ralph Kiner.

I would not put Belle in but I believe in the future, when people forget his rep, some kind of Veterans Committee will elect him.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Jim65

The argument for Belle is Ralph Kiner.

I would not put Belle in but I believe in the future, when people forget his rep, some kind of Veterans Committee will elect him.

Ralph Kiner led the NL in Hrs 7 times, Albert Belle led the AL once.

Kiner in 10 seasons WAR 49.4 WAR7 43.7 JAWS 46.5
Belle in 12 seasons WAR 40.1 WAR7 36.0 JAWS 38.1
Bob Johnson 13 seasons WAR 57.3 WAR7 36.0 JAWS 46.6

When you are talking about a player with a short career they need to have a high peak. Kiner was 8th among LF and those above him were elite players. Belle is tied for 30th with Bob Johnson. That is his comp not Ralph Kiner.

[calvindog]

Wow, I just took a look at Belle’s numbers. I had no idea he was that consistently productive.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

Ralph Kiner led the NL in Hrs 7 times, Albert Belle led the AL once.

Kiner in 10 seasons WAR 49.4 WAR7 43.7 JAWS 46.5
Belle in 12 seasons WAR 40.1 WAR7 36.0 JAWS 38.1
Bob Johnson 13 seasons WAR 57.3 WAR7 36.0 JAWS 46.6

When you are talking about a player with a short career they need to have a high peak. Kiner was 8th among LF and those above him were elite players. Belle is tied for 30th with Bob Johnson. That is his comp not Ralph Kiner.

Bob Johnson isn't a good comp because Johnson played well into old age. Belle, who put up bigger numbers, retired due to injury.

Johnson also gets a big bump to metrics because he was one of the few decent players to not lose any time to WW2. Of course he stood out in comparison to the likes of Pete Gray.

[Peter_Spaeth]

7/63/.265 in 1943 and he takes 5th in MVP voting. Ouch.

Interesting stats though. He started at age 27. One imagines he would be on more people's radar screens with a few more good early years.

[Huysmans]

I get the whole career thing...
but like Paul Henderson who scored the most famous goal in history (he is not in the Hockey Hall of Fame), Maris achieved something only a few players have been able to - ensuring his legacy, and he was extremely famous at some point....

Maybe these institutions should be called the Hall's of Career Stats and Longevity

[familytoad]

Albert’s HOF voting record is dismal.
Writers and committees have had 18 years to vote him in, but they don’t appear to believe he is a HOFer either.
If you peak @ 7.7% then drop off the ballot after two tries, you don’t have much support for the folks best able to put you in.

I’m not saying he wasn’t a good hitter. His numbers are good. But there are a lot of hitters with good numbers.

Originally Posted by Tabe

Belle's argument is that he was an elite hitter for a decade before his career was ended by a severe injury. He played 10 full seasons and averaged 40 homers every 162. There are plenty of other guys who had careers shortened by injury or death but are in the Hall. Addie Joss, Sandy Koufax, and Kirby Puckett to name three.

The idea that he didn't play long enough or doesn't have the career numbers holds no water. He meets the Hall criteria and his career was ended by injury. If Belle was just pretty good or whatever (Don Mattingly), then OK. But he wasn't. He was elite.

[Fred]

Albert "don't call me Joey" Belle was a force when he played. He was only 33 when he left baseball. Calling him the Barry Sanders of baseball may be a stretch, but he did some damage when he played.

What if Roger only had 59 HRs in 1961? Would there be a discussion about it? From what I've read Roger and Joey were probably opposites when it comes to "public relations" but when you look at just the stats and remove all other considerations, how do these two stack up?

[Yastrzemski Sports]

My opinion is that the writers have shown over the years that they don’t have much of a clue about what they are doing. Whitaker and Trammell had almost identical career numbers and both played at a position where their numbers rank him among other hof members. Whitaker was off the ballot in a year. Trammell stayed on the ballot and gained support over the years and was finally put in by the vets. Just because the voters didn’t vote for a player doesn’t mean that they don’t deserve it.

Originally Posted by familytoad

Albert’s HOF voting record is dismal.
Writers and committees have had 18 years to vote him in, but they don’t appear to believe he is a HOFer either.
If you peak @ 7.7% then drop off the ballot after two tries, you don’t have much support for the folks best able to put you in.

I’m not saying he wasn’t a good hitter. His numbers are good. But there are a lot of hitters with good numbers.

[glynparson]

I said both but I am for a large hall of fame.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

My opinion is that the writers have shown over the years that they don’t have much of a clue about what they are doing. Whitaker and Trammell had almost identical career numbers and both played at a position where their numbers rank him among other hof members. Whitaker was off the ballot in a year. Trammell stayed on the ballot and gained support over the years and was finally put in by the vets. Just because the voters didn’t vote for a player doesn’t mean that they don’t deserve it.

It is because of position. Trammell played one of the 2 most difficult positions in the game (SS & C) where defense is the primary concern and offense is rare, only Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan put up strong offensive numbers at the position over a full career. Trammell was slighly above the average for his position for a HOFer.

Whitaker on the other hand played a much easier position where HOFers have put up more offense (Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie, Morgan, Carew, Jackie) and his career numbers are slightly below average for his position for a HOFer.

In particular, he had a low 7 year peak (as did Maris & Belle) while Trammell had a much higher peak along with WS MVP and AL MVP 2nd place. Whitaker only received MVP votes once, finishing 8th. He should have received more support from HOF voters, but he really isn't a strong candidate. He is behind Bobby Grich and Chase Utley among weak 2b candidates, both of which never had strong individual seasons (higher than 7th or 8th in MVP voting).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ripken was a SS through age 35. Not exactly shabby offensive numbers.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

ripken was a ss through age 35. Not exactly shabby offensive numbers.

ops+ 112.