Do Roger Maris or Albert Belle belong in the HOF

[Peter_Spaeth]

Inspired by a recent thread.
1. Maris only.
2. Belle only.
3. Both.
4. Neither.

[ullmandds]

I said belle only...not sure if roger deserves entry basically for “61?” Albert was consistently one of the most feared hitters for a while and put up solid numbers...despite being a d-bag...but thats never mattered for entry to a hall.

[packs]

I would put Roger in for his contributions to baseball over his career. Hitting those 61 homers was an incredible achievement.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Most casual baseball fans are shocked when they find out that Maris is not in the HOF. Maris is iconic. Maris is a household name - most people who don’t know baseball know his name. He’s a legend. Legends should be immortalized.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Most casual baseball fans are shocked when they find out that Maris is not in the HOF. Maris is iconic. Maris is a household name - most people who don’t know baseball know his name. He’s a legend. Legends should be immortalized.

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

[36GoudeyMan]

Could the HOF maybe have a wing for "Hall of Fame Achievements"? Something to honor players who did something(s) great but did not have an otherwise HOF-worthy career?

Maris' 61 homers comes to mind. Vander Meer's back-to-back No Hitters might qualify.

Dunno, just a thought....

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by rats60

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

Are you nuts? Even in Wisconsin, back in 1961 we had newspapers, magazines, and radio's.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

Are you serious? I don't understand how anyone who was alive in 1998 can possibly say something like that. Maris was the most famous name in all of sports during the most famous chase in all of sports at a time when baseball was at it's inflated height. I think you would have been hard pressed to find a person in the country who didn't know his name.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by rats60

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

I daresay most people in New York don't know who he is. Clearly most people everywhere do not. The median age is like 27, and even in the U.S., which apart from Canada, is probably about the only country where more than 1% of people would know the name, < 20% of the people are old enough to remember the '61 season.

I have a feeling that most people know who Sam Harris is, given how frequently he's mentioned within my social group, but I also know that feeling is stupid and comes from a false consensus bias and that in reality there's no way even 10% of people know who he is. Baseball fans will feel the same about Roger Maris, Hank Greenberg, et al., but again, no way even 10% of people know who these guys are. In fact, no way even 10% of people know who Walter Johnson was, and he was the greatest pitcher in MLB history.

There are several times as many people who don't know who Donald Trump is (and he's likely the most famous person in the world at the moment) as who do know who Roger Maris was.

[timn1]

Maris as a hofer is nonsense.

Originally Posted by rats60

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by rats60

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

The argument is whether or not he WAS EVER famous.... not whether or not he is famous now. By that logic, how many people or even casual baseball fans today could tell you who Mathewson or Ward or Anson are? Probably close to zero... so does that mean they were never famous? Of course not.
And people in the West, South or Midwest certainly knew who Maris was in 1961... unless they lived under a rock.

You can also add that most players with little fame do not have movies made after them.

[BuckiGuy]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Most casual baseball fans are shocked when they find out that Maris is not in the HOF. Maris is iconic. Maris is a household name - most people who don’t know baseball know his name. He’s a legend. Legends should be immortalized.

This. As for Belle, I grew up watch8ng him play at The Jake, and he was as feared as they come for quite sometime. While I’m not sure he’s hall worthy, the standards to get in have slipped a bit lately. I mean, Mike Mussina will be in this year, and Fred McGriff probably next year.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by buckiguy

this. As for belle, i grew up watch8ng him play at the jake, and he was as feared as they come for quite sometime. While i’m not sure he’s hall worthy, the standards to get in have slipped a bit lately. I mean, mike mussina will be in this year, and fred mcgriff probably next year.

McGriff.jpg

McGriff - a stand out HOF package, if there ever was one.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by BuckiGuy

This. As for Belle, I grew up watch8ng him play at The Jake, and he was as feared as they come for quite sometime. While I’m not sure he’s hall worthy, the standards to get in have slipped a bit lately. I mean, Mike Mussina will be in this year, and Fred McGriff probably next year.

Here are all the pitchers better than Mussina who are not in the Hall of Fame.

1. Roger Clemens

[Jim65]

I voted neither because neither deserves to be in. Maris had 3 good years which makes him a no. Belle was the far superior hitter but his rep and short career keep him out.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I voted neither because neither deserves to be in. Maris had 3 good years which makes him a no. Belle was the far superior hitter but his rep and short career keep him out.

+1 - exactly as I see it.

[bbcard1]

Here's the rub, IMO. Someone like Baines gets in and everyone yells "Compiler!" Guys who have a few great seasons are the other side of that coin, but seldom get recognized...maybe a few deadball guys like Chesboro or Walsh, but no one recently. I don't think it matters all that much, but I could live with both or neither, however, I would argue that Maris (and Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose) is a de facto Hall of Fame because he is more well-known than the vast majority of outfielders in the hall.

[sycks22]

Maris has more of an argument than Belle. Belle was a juicer who hit 380 hrs, those were a dime a dozen in the 90's / 2000's. Carlos Delgado had 100 more hrs and hit .280 and didn't even get 5% of the vote to stay on the ballot a couple years back.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by sycks22

Maris has more of an argument than Belle. Belle was a juicer who hit 380 hrs, those were a dime a dozen in the 90's / 2000's. Carlos Delgado had 100 more hrs and hit .280 and didn't even get 5% of the vote to stay on the ballot a couple years back.

In 500 more games. Again, Belle retired because of injury not because of age or ineptitude. If Belle had been able to play a full career, he'd have hit 600+.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

No for both

[familytoad]

The writers and committees have had 50 years to elect Maris and never did.
That is very telling.
(We cannot elect him from Net54 either)

Players with great seasons or memorable achievements get their attention in the Hall already, they don’t necessarily deserve a career award like the HOF election.

Belle isn’t a HOFer either. He doesn’t have much of an argument for his career numbers or fame factor. There is at least a couple dozen guys who have some argument, but not him.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by familytoad

The writers and committees have had 50 years to elect Maris and never did.
That is very telling.
(We cannot elect him from Net54 either)

Players with great seasons or memorable achievements get their attention in the Hall already, they don’t necessarily deserve a career award like the HOF election.

Belle isn’t a HOFer either. He doesn’t have much of an argument for his career numbers or fame factor. There is at least a couple dozen guys who have some argument, but not him.

Belle's argument is that he was an elite hitter for a decade before his career was ended by a severe injury. He played 10 full seasons and averaged 40 homers every 162. There are plenty of other guys who had careers shortened by injury or death but are in the Hall. Addie Joss, Sandy Koufax, and Kirby Puckett to name three.

The idea that he didn't play long enough or doesn't have the career numbers holds no water. He meets the Hall criteria and his career was ended by injury. If Belle was just pretty good or whatever (Don Mattingly), then OK. But he wasn't. He was elite.

[pokerplyr80]

Yea I'd have to say yes to Belle and no to Maris. His last 9 seasons he had 100 or more RBIs. Has anyone ever done this and not made the HOF?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Yea I'd have to say yes to Belle and no to Maris. His last 9 seasons he had 100 or more RBIs. Has anyone ever done this and not made the HOF?

Joe Carter had 10 seasons of 100 RBIs and another with 98. Is he a Hofer too?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Joe Carter had 10 seasons of 100 RBIs and another with 98. Is he a Hofer too?

No comparison between Belle and Carter.

Carter
19.6 career WAR / 21.5 7yr-peak WAR / 20.5 JAWS
Belle
40.1 career WAR / 36.0 7yr-peak WAR / 38.0 JAWS

[BuckiGuy]

Originally Posted by rats60

Joe Carter had 10 seasons of 100 RBIs and another with 98. Is he a Hofer too?

If Joe Carter played in New York, Chicago, or some other major market for the moajority of his career instead of in front of 8,000 fans at old Cleveland Municiple Stadium he would absolutely be in. If he played in the ESPN and Fox Sports era of today, he’d be in.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Yea I'd have to say yes to Belle and no to Maris. His last 9 seasons he had 100 or more RBIs. Has anyone ever done this and not made the HOF?

Hodges had 7 in a row not in off the top of my head.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Belle's argument is that he was an elite hitter for a decade before his career was ended by a severe injury. He played 10 full seasons and averaged 40 homers every 162. There are plenty of other guys who had careers shortened by injury or death but are in the Hall. Addie Joss, Sandy Koufax, and Kirby Puckett to name three.

The idea that he didn't play long enough or doesn't have the career numbers holds no water. He meets the Hall criteria and his career was ended by injury. If Belle was just pretty good or whatever (Don Mattingly), then OK. But he wasn't. He was elite.

The argument for Belle is Ralph Kiner.

I would not put Belle in but I believe in the future, when people forget his rep, some kind of Veterans Committee will elect him.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Jim65

The argument for Belle is Ralph Kiner.

I would not put Belle in but I believe in the future, when people forget his rep, some kind of Veterans Committee will elect him.

Ralph Kiner led the NL in Hrs 7 times, Albert Belle led the AL once.

Kiner in 10 seasons WAR 49.4 WAR7 43.7 JAWS 46.5
Belle in 12 seasons WAR 40.1 WAR7 36.0 JAWS 38.1
Bob Johnson 13 seasons WAR 57.3 WAR7 36.0 JAWS 46.6

When you are talking about a player with a short career they need to have a high peak. Kiner was 8th among LF and those above him were elite players. Belle is tied for 30th with Bob Johnson. That is his comp not Ralph Kiner.

[calvindog]

Wow, I just took a look at Belle’s numbers. I had no idea he was that consistently productive.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

Ralph Kiner led the NL in Hrs 7 times, Albert Belle led the AL once.

Kiner in 10 seasons WAR 49.4 WAR7 43.7 JAWS 46.5
Belle in 12 seasons WAR 40.1 WAR7 36.0 JAWS 38.1
Bob Johnson 13 seasons WAR 57.3 WAR7 36.0 JAWS 46.6

When you are talking about a player with a short career they need to have a high peak. Kiner was 8th among LF and those above him were elite players. Belle is tied for 30th with Bob Johnson. That is his comp not Ralph Kiner.

Bob Johnson isn't a good comp because Johnson played well into old age. Belle, who put up bigger numbers, retired due to injury.

Johnson also gets a big bump to metrics because he was one of the few decent players to not lose any time to WW2. Of course he stood out in comparison to the likes of Pete Gray.

[familytoad]

Albert’s HOF voting record is dismal.
Writers and committees have had 18 years to vote him in, but they don’t appear to believe he is a HOFer either.
If you peak @ 7.7% then drop off the ballot after two tries, you don’t have much support for the folks best able to put you in.

I’m not saying he wasn’t a good hitter. His numbers are good. But there are a lot of hitters with good numbers.

Originally Posted by Tabe

Belle's argument is that he was an elite hitter for a decade before his career was ended by a severe injury. He played 10 full seasons and averaged 40 homers every 162. There are plenty of other guys who had careers shortened by injury or death but are in the Hall. Addie Joss, Sandy Koufax, and Kirby Puckett to name three.

The idea that he didn't play long enough or doesn't have the career numbers holds no water. He meets the Hall criteria and his career was ended by injury. If Belle was just pretty good or whatever (Don Mattingly), then OK. But he wasn't. He was elite.

[Fred]

Albert "don't call me Joey" Belle was a force when he played. He was only 33 when he left baseball. Calling him the Barry Sanders of baseball may be a stretch, but he did some damage when he played.

What if Roger only had 59 HRs in 1961? Would there be a discussion about it? From what I've read Roger and Joey were probably opposites when it comes to "public relations" but when you look at just the stats and remove all other considerations, how do these two stack up?

[Yastrzemski Sports]

My opinion is that the writers have shown over the years that they don’t have much of a clue about what they are doing. Whitaker and Trammell had almost identical career numbers and both played at a position where their numbers rank him among other hof members. Whitaker was off the ballot in a year. Trammell stayed on the ballot and gained support over the years and was finally put in by the vets. Just because the voters didn’t vote for a player doesn’t mean that they don’t deserve it.

Originally Posted by familytoad

Albert’s HOF voting record is dismal.
Writers and committees have had 18 years to vote him in, but they don’t appear to believe he is a HOFer either.
If you peak @ 7.7% then drop off the ballot after two tries, you don’t have much support for the folks best able to put you in.

I’m not saying he wasn’t a good hitter. His numbers are good. But there are a lot of hitters with good numbers.

[glynparson]

I said both but I am for a large hall of fame.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

My opinion is that the writers have shown over the years that they don’t have much of a clue about what they are doing. Whitaker and Trammell had almost identical career numbers and both played at a position where their numbers rank him among other hof members. Whitaker was off the ballot in a year. Trammell stayed on the ballot and gained support over the years and was finally put in by the vets. Just because the voters didn’t vote for a player doesn’t mean that they don’t deserve it.

It is because of position. Trammell played one of the 2 most difficult positions in the game (SS & C) where defense is the primary concern and offense is rare, only Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan put up strong offensive numbers at the position over a full career. Trammell was slighly above the average for his position for a HOFer.

Whitaker on the other hand played a much easier position where HOFers have put up more offense (Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie, Morgan, Carew, Jackie) and his career numbers are slightly below average for his position for a HOFer.

In particular, he had a low 7 year peak (as did Maris & Belle) while Trammell had a much higher peak along with WS MVP and AL MVP 2nd place. Whitaker only received MVP votes once, finishing 8th. He should have received more support from HOF voters, but he really isn't a strong candidate. He is behind Bobby Grich and Chase Utley among weak 2b candidates, both of which never had strong individual seasons (higher than 7th or 8th in MVP voting).

[SteveMitchell]

This argument in favor of Albert Belle being of Hall of Fame caliber is made with the understanding that Albert was telling the truth when he said, in answer to whether or not he used steroids: “I never did,” said Belle. “I didn’t need to. All you have to do is check the trainers’ weight charts. Every year I’d come to camp weighing 225 to 230 and end the season at about 215 to 220.”

The Cleveland franchise has been in the American League for well over a century. According to Baseball-Reference.com's Cleveland Indians Top 10 Career Batting Leaders, there are 39 positive categories (actually there are 43 but for this purpose, strikeouts, outs made, double plays grounded into, caught stealing have been eliminated). My argument is that after more than a century of play, if you find your name multiple times in the Top 10 of a positive category, you probably belong in the Hall of Fame. Of the 39 positive categories, Albert Bell (despite playing only the equivalent of 6 full seasons in Cleveland) made the Top Ten 16 times.

If you wish to check out this out, for more details see: https://www.baseball-reference.com/t...ders_bat.shtml

Finally, a favorable word for a man I was privileged to know for nearly a decade - Earl Averill, another Cleveland great. Of these 39 categories, Earl Averill placed in the Top Ten 29 times and was the absolute leader 9 of those times. Behind Averill's 9 Number One rankings follow: Tris Speaker (7), Jim Thome (6), Larry Lajoie (4), Joe Jackson (3), Kenny Lofton (2), Manny Ramierz (2) and 7 others including 3 Hall of Famers (tied one apiece).