Just sad. No, not sad. Pathetic.

[the 'stache]

Here we have a Probstein auction for a pretty nice Walter Johnson T206 portrait that I might have considered bidding on, as I am in the market for one just like this. But when I saw some of the shenanigans going on (by the way, that's me being respectful of the forum, and honoring the rules, Leon. I have a few other words I'd really like to employ here, but won't), there wasn't a chance in hell I was getting involved. Because, silly me, when I bid on something, I consider that legally binding. Apparently I'm just weird, or behind in the times, or just stubbornly ethical.

But, I suppose I'm misinterpreting what I'm seeing here. I'm sure there's a completely logical explanation for this, right, Rick? Because, after all, a dealer cannot be expected to keep tabs on all the bidders on their auctions, even when one potential buyer (LOL) has bid over 5,000 times on their auctions within the past 30 days.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Walter-...-/380890877430

Bidder: i***r ( 546Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 5109
Items bid on: 958
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 52% Help
Bid retractions: 24
Bid retractions (6 months): 72

Bidder: d***f ( 859Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 4592
Items bid on: 4092
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 81% Help
Bid retractions: 4
Bid retractions (6 months): 133


Bidder: 2***e ( 6825Feedback score is 5,000 to 9,999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 768
Items bid on: 636
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 31% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 9

Bidder: 4***c ( 932Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 327
Items bid on: 190
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 33% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 7

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

even when one potential buyer (LOL) has bid over 5,000 times on their auctions within the past 30 days.

Statement appears to be inaccurate. See math below.



Bidder: i***r ( 546Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 5109
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 52%
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 2657

Bidder: d***f ( 859Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 4592
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 81% Help
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 3765


Bidder: 2***e ( 6825Feedback score is 5,000 to 9,999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 768
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 31% Help
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 238



Bidder: 4***c ( 932Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 327
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 33% Help
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 108

[markf31]

Now we wait for the obligatory replies of:

"I'm tired of all these type of posts"
"Nothing gets accomplished with these posts"
"No one can do anything about it, so why bother"
"You can't expect him to track ALL those listings at the same time"
"These posts are useless"
"Instead of complaining, why not pose a solution"

That doesn't even cover those individuals who attempt to make excuses for this type of rampant fraud.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by markf31

Now we wait for the obligatory replies of:

"I'm tired of all these type of posts"
"Nothing gets accomplished with these posts"
"No one can do anything about it, so why bother"
"You can't expect him to track ALL those listings at the same time"
"These posts are useless"
"Instead of complaining, why not pose a solution"

That doesn't even cover those individuals who attempt to make excuses for this type of rampant fraud.

Ha Ha...yup...here we go again...and again...

[wolf441]

The good thing is, there's the Probstein logo right on the picture when you are looking at the listings. So do like I do, just zoom right past them without a 2nd glance!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Blazzy blah.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by timzcardz

Statement appears to be inaccurate. See math below.

Bidder: i***r ( 546Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 5109
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 52%
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 2657

Bidder: d***f ( 859Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 4592
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 81% Help
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 3765


Bidder: 2***e ( 6825Feedback score is 5,000 to 9,999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 768
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 31% Help
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 238


Bidder: 4***c ( 932Feedback score is 500 to 999)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 327
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 33% Help
--------------------------------------------------
Bids with this seller =~ 108

Hopefully this response to the counting was sarcasm?

No judge, that is totally wrong, I didn't shoot him 29 times in self defense, I shot him 27 times. Big difference!!

Personally, if I ran ebay the seller and bidders would be in trouble.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hopefully this response to the counting was sarcasm?

No judge, that is totally wrong, I didn't shoot him 29 times in self defense, I shot him 27 times. Big difference!!

Personally, if I ran ebay the seller and bidders would be in trouble.

Wasn't trying to be sarcastic at all.

Only trying to make the point that dealing with something accurately adds credibility, in my opinion.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by timzcardz

Wasn't trying to be sarcastic at all.

Only trying to make the point that dealing with something accurately adds credibility, in my opinion.

No doubt it's better to be accurate. Because shooting someone 27 times is much different than 29 times, right? Whether it's 5000 bids or 3700 bids wasn't the point. The egregious and fraudulent bidding patterns are the issue. Fraud is fraud, and to me retracting that many bids and bidding that often with one seller, looks like fraud to me. But I do agree in being accurate.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Leon

No doubt it's better to be accurate. Because shooting someone 27 times is much different than 29 times, right? Whether it's 5000 bids or 3700 bids wasn't the point. The egregious and fraudulent bidding patterns are the issue. Fraud is fraud, and to me retracting that many bids and bidding that often with one seller, looks like fraud to me. But I do agree in being accurate.

I'm a real stickler when it comes to providing accurate information. In this case, I just completely flubbed it.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by timzcardz

Statement appears to be inaccurate. See math below.

You're right, I had a brain fart. That's still a hell of a lot of bids, and the sentiment is still the same.

[MattyC]

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens.

Why even look at bidding histories when people are retracting now just to make an auction look bad-- akin to dissing a card to dampen interest. You know what annoying TMZ drivel is on that channel, so why tune in and annoy yourself? It is tantamount to masochism.

PWCC has a few cards I think are gorgeous up right now. I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens.

Why even look at bidding histories when people are retracting now just to make an auction look bad-- akin to dissing a card to dampen interest. You know what annoying TMZ drivel is on that channel, so why tune in and annoy yourself? It is tantamount to masochism.

PWCC has a few cards I think are gorgeous up right now. I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

Understood but I think these threads are good. It's good to know the dishonest (by the fact of looking the other way) sellers and shenanigans going on, on things we bid on. I snipe but still don't like to pay more due to fraud than I should have to. Or you can just ignore it.....

And I do agree about bidding what you want to and no more. I do that anyway....(usually)

[MattyC]

Leon,

To be clear, in my last post I am not making any commentary on the thread or calling posts like this whining.

I am just offering an approach that leads to less Sturm und Drang, less negative mental energy and frustration, and more happiness on a daily level for the fellow collector.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens.

Why even look at bidding histories when people are retracting now just to make an auction look bad-- akin to dissing a card to dampen interest. You know what annoying TMZ drivel is on that channel, so why tune in and annoy yourself? It is tantamount to masochism.

PWCC has a few cards I think are gorgeous up right now. I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

What you are happy paying is in part a function of your perception of the market, and if that market is driven up by fraud.... you get the point.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What you are happy paying is in part a function of your perception of the market, and if that market is driven up by fraud.... you get the point.

Agreed, I totally get it. I'm just content to factor everything in to my comfortable paying prices. There's reality, which needs to be lived in and faced, and then there is pining for some parallel universe in which certain daily annoyances don't exist (not saying anyone here is doing that, just pointing out a path on which I do not want to find myself).

This is not to say making all collectors aware of shilling is not a great service. It is. And knowledge is power. I just think the best thing to do with that knowledge is factor it in, understand what price it takes to acquire a desired card, and either reel that baby in and enjoy it as part of a collection, or not.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens. . . . I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

+1

I treat every auction like it may have a hidden reserve. I have never paid more for a card than I was prepared to. And, I don't get caught up in the concern that my price expectations may be inflated by a false market created by shillers.

Having said this, I appreciate these threads, and I factor in all of this information into my bidding strategy.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens.

Why even look at bidding histories when people are retracting now just to make an auction look bad-- akin to dissing a card to dampen interest. You know what annoying TMZ drivel is on that channel, so why tune in and annoy yourself? It is tantamount to masochism.

PWCC has a few cards I think are gorgeous up right now. I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

Matt, I understand your thinking. In theory, if I'm willing to pay up to $1,000 on a card, I can just set an alarm on my phone to give me a "five minutes to auction end" warning, then load up my laptop, desktop computer or the Ebay app on my Windows phone, and put in my $1,000 bid right before the auction ends. And, if I get the card right at $1,000, I should be happy, as that's what I was willing to pay, right? I got the card, and nobody was able to make me exceed my budget.

Only, what if I would have gotten the card for $900, or $950 if it weren't for the shill bidder?

Four years ago, I wouldn't have given it a second thought. I was a single guy living on my own, and after getting my stock broker licenses, I got a pretty big promotion. I was making a good deal of money. So, $50 or $100 would have seemed insignificant to me. But since getting hurt, my thinking has changed. I am more mindful of wasting things now, money included. Losing $50 or $100 due to what is essentially criminal activity is completely unnecessary. When we become accepting of these kinds of losses because we didn't want to "stress out" over it, or "give it a second thought", it just enables these crooks further. What is the quotation with a seemingly endless list of variations that's attributed to Edmund Burke? Something to the effect of "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Well? If we are silent, then we're going to get more of the same.

If I were up against one legitimate buyer only, and I was forced to bid the full $1,000 in order to acquire the card, then I'd have no problem. But if I should have gotten the card for less, why should I be even remotely ok with paying more?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

But if I should have gotten the card for less, why should I be even remotely ok with paying more?

My view is that you would not have gotten the card for less if shilling had been prevented, because the seller would not have listed his card in an auction in the first place. Or he would have set a hidden reserve, or a higher minimum bid.

The reason ebay is filled with BINs is because most sellers don't want to have to shill to get their prices. But they're not going to list their items as pure auctions because they are afraid of letting a clean market dictate the price of the item. A price point set by a triggered BIN has the propensity to be just as misleading as a price point set by shill bidders.

Frankly, I think a buyer has a false sense of security if he thinks when he bids in an auction that there are only bona fide bidders competing against him.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

If I were up against one legitimate buyer only, and I was forced to bid the full $1,000 in order to acquire the card, then I'd have no problem. But if I should have gotten the card for less, why should I be even remotely ok with paying more?

Bill, not directed at you (I think you are spot on), but a general question / observation for others regarding the "willing to pay" argument.

A man is going to buy a pair of shoes. He knows the pair of shoes he wants and he knows they cost $100. He goes into the shoe store and they are on sale for $50.

Which guy are you? The one who pays $50 for the shoes, or the one who gives the clerk $100 for the shoes, reasoning that you were willing to pay $100 for the shoes anyway?

[japhi]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

You're right, I had a brain fart. That's still a hell of a lot of bids, and the sentiment is still the same.

I'm not a fan of shilling but if that was a card I wanted I would set a snipe at the number I'm comfortable, and at the same time notify Rick about the activity. He may ban those bidders and you might get the card at a good price. Worst case scenario you pay what your comfortable paying for the card.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by japhi

I'm not a fan of shilling but if that was a card I wanted I would set a snipe at the number I'm comfortable, and at the same time notify Rick about the activity. He may ban those bidders and you might get the card at a good price. Worst case scenario you pay what your comfortable paying for the card.

Hello, Matt. You're pretty new to the board, but there have been several threads over the last couple of years about Probstein's consignors shilling their own auctions. Rick was notified and did absolutely nothing about it. This was back when you could link eBay transactions by the buyer's and seller's feedback, but eBay has since decided to protect the shillers and make it nearly impossible to determine that anymore.

One shiller, Joseph M Pankiewicz, would buy cards on eBay, consign them to Rick and bid on his own cards. This was clearly evident from the bid history. This was all done by username and feedback, but again, eBay has decided they want to protect shillers and that is no longer possible. At the time, it was brought to Rick's attention, he chose to do nothing about it. Last time I looked, he still allows Panky to consign.

[japhi]

Hi David: I'm new but have been reading the board for around a year and have read all those threads. I just can get myself worked up about shilling. That said, I collect mostly hockey HOF rookies - which is why i don't post often-and mostly mid grade so shilling isn't as big an issue as it is in the baseball world.

My style is closer to MattyC's, I don't get too caught up in all the BS that comes with the hobby, it's a chance for me to get away from a very competitive/high paced career that comes with all the BS I can handle.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by japhi

I'm not a fan of shilling but if that was a card I wanted I would set a snipe at the number I'm comfortable, and at the same time notify Rick about the activity. He may ban those bidders and you might get the card at a good price. Worst case scenario you pay what your comfortable paying for the card.

This thinking hurts my brain. Let's say you want a card up at auction which you are willing to pay $200 for -- and you put in such a snipe. A shill bidder puts in a bid at $199 with the next lowest bid at $50. So you end up getting the card at $200 and you're supposed to be happy? When you were just ripped off $149? Really?

[japhi]

Originally Posted by calvindog

This thinking hurts my brain. Let's say you want a card up at auction which you are willing to pay $200 for -- and you put in such a snipe. A shill bidder puts in a bid at $199 with the next lowest bid at $50. So you end up getting the card at $200 and you're supposed to be happy? When you were just ripped off $149? Really?

Open to any solutions you have that can save me money buying on Ebay. If you have ways I can pay $150 for a card that typically sells for $200 I'm all ears.