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#1
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Punch
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I have a YouTube Video on the Punch cards and there are less than 100 graded, yes so every card is a super short print. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khfYeqNzrAk&t=25s By the way, I have most of the scans of the Punch cards that I have (roughly 70% of the set) on the SGC registry. Also, a few other points. Bill James mentions the talent in the Negro League and defers to the experts who pretty uniformly choose Oscar Charleston as the best the league had to offer. Recall that we are talking about a league that, shortly after its demise produced, Aaron, Mays, Jackie Robinson, Ernie Banks, etc.... meaning that certainly all the negro league players at the turn of the century and prior to integration had some amazing talents. Even the Major Leaguers themselves are quoted as saying as much. But in the end few people know about this sub segment of baseball. Based on some of the other conversation, it may make sense to compare Charleston to another player that a lot of current baseball fans do not know... like Eddie Collins or someone like that to see the results. Anyway, lots of great conversation and opinions and I thank everyone for sharing.
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Al Jurgela Looking for: 1910 Punch (Plank) 50 Hage's Dairy (Minoso) All Oscar Charleston Cards Rare Soccer cards Rare Boxing cards |
#2
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Charleston Cards
By the way, here are the other two cards of Charleston (the Aguilitas one was already shown)
Pop reports (to the conductibility issue) from both PSA and SGC Billiken 10 Tomas Gutierrez 7 Aguilitas 10
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Al Jurgela Looking for: 1910 Punch (Plank) 50 Hage's Dairy (Minoso) All Oscar Charleston Cards Rare Soccer cards Rare Boxing cards |
#3
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I simply boil it down to supply and demand. You cant separate one from the other when talking about prices. Your analysis focused mainly on the supply discrepancies of the two cards, but without demand in the equation, a Piedmont T206 Cobb would be the same price as any other Piedmont T206 card.
And I think we regularly see the demand of a given card is not only based on the players ability, but other (non supply based) factors like the market and era he played in. So while it's a good, and very interesting analysis, I don't think you can draw any conclusions about cards being over or under valued or whether there is room for price escalation (or deflation) based on those numbers. So I'll go ahead and make a stab at how we value a card: CV = f(PG, PF, CN, MK, ER, AV, MF, SP, VA, RC, FF) where: CV = value of the card PG = Player's Greatness - Babe Ruth or Buddy Biancalana? PF = Player's Following - explains why Roger Maris (non-HOFer) costs more than Early Wynn (HoFer) CN = Condition of the card - since graded cards have entered the market, this is now an exponential factor (ie high grade cards now demand a higher % premium) MK = Market the player played in - New York or Milwaukee? ER = Era that the player played in - how familiar are folks with this player? MF = Manufacturer of the card - Topps or Hostess or Goudey? SP = Supply - how many were produced? VA = Visual Appeal - is the card visually appealing and therefore more collectible? RC = Rookie Card - does it carry the RC premium? FF = Fudge Factor - was it a corrected error, printing flaw, an iconic card or some other strange factor? All of these factors, except Supply, are really related to Demand. Am I missing any major factors here? Anyone care to try to put coefficients to these factors?
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Working Sets: Baseball- T206 SLers - Virginia League (-2) 1952 Topps - low numbers (-1) 1954 Bowman (-5) 1964 Topps Giants auto'd (-2) Last edited by Bigdaddy; 03-08-2018 at 08:29 PM. Reason: fixed formula |
#4
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I think that this is "right on"
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I guess my original post was mainly focused on the fact that these cards were focused on PG and SP (which Charleston likely would win). Very good and thoughtful analysis. Thanks! |
#5
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Very nice equation!! Now you just need to apply it to certain players/cards to get the R-squared and to determine the coefficients! As an fYi, you mentioned RC in your analysis, but it was inadvertently left out of the equation. For me, the RC is a very large factor.
Demand technically just needs to be two guys though for something with a supply of <10. And that demand has to come from folks with relatively deep pockets.
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... http://imageevent.com/derekgranger HOF "Earliest" Collection (Ideal - Indiv): 244/342 (71.4%) 1914 T330-2 Piedmont Art Stamps......: 114/119 (95.8%) 1923 V100 Willard's Chocolate............: 177/180 (98.3%) |
#6
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I agree with the point above about relying too much on reputation or opinion. Orlando Cepeda who played with Mays and Aaron, said Clemente was the best player that he ever saw. Mays said that other than himself, Clemente was the best player he had seen. There are others who offer similar praise about Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Clemente, etc. We also hear similar praise for top Negro League players. The price of Clemente's cards are a product of his greatness on and off the field. Charleston's prices have nothing to do with Clemente or any comparison to him. It is a combination of not having a card in an iconic set, not playing in the majors and a lack of information in general about him or his career. |
#7
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Just a point to add to my earlier post: I'm absolutely sure that Charleston was indeed a great player. But James, who I respect immensely (I have all of his books and have read each of them at least twice!) and believe is the best at sabermetric analysis, has Willie Mays at #3, and Mantle just a bit behind Charleston at #6 (hence the earlier reference to Mantle). Once more, I find it difficult to believe that that is where Oscar would fit in among the greatest of all time. I avidly followed Willie's 1965 season through the Sporting News, box scores and televised games (then limited to an occasional Saturday game of the week or the All-Star game), and he was truly awesome.
I guess I'm from Missouri on that one--you'd have to show me! Great posts all, Larry |
#8
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Bill James
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"It’s not like one person saw Oscar Charleston play and said that he was the greatest player ever. Lots of people said he was the greatest player they ever saw. John McGraw, who knew something about baseball, reportedly said that. . . . His statistical record, such as it is, would not discourage you from believing that this was true. I don’t think I’m a soft touch or easily persuaded; I believe I’m fairly skeptical. I just don’t see any reason not to believe that this man was as good as anybody who ever played the game." I also tend to be somewhat moved by this opinion: Bill James, than whom no one has ever more carefully or impartially considered the historical evidence. In his New Bill James Baseball Historical Abstract, James ranks Charleston the fourth-greatest baseball player of all time. Only Ruth, Wagner, and Mays were greater. Cobb, Mantle, Musial, Aaron, Williams, and other elite members of the tiny, last-names-only club don’t quite measure up. Think about it. Bill James said that. Not a random fan or family member. Not a sportswriter ginning up a story. Not a basement-dweller blogger at Bleacher Report. Not an attention-seeking talking head. Not a revisionist historian with a social or political agenda. Bill James. The father of sabermetrics. The man who brought a new level of rigor in our thinking about baseball—indeed, about sports generally. The man who launched the analytics revolution. A walking baseball encyclopedia. A man who prides himself on not giving a damn what other people think. He is the one who said that Oscar Charleston was the fourth-greatest player of all time, which of course makes Charleston one of the greatest athletes in American history. Anyone who is interested in this may find this page (and the ones generally about him) helpful. https://oscarcharleston.com/tag/bill-james/
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Al Jurgela Looking for: 1910 Punch (Plank) 50 Hage's Dairy (Minoso) All Oscar Charleston Cards Rare Soccer cards Rare Boxing cards |
#9
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The problem is Bill James is as random a person to a lot of people as Oscar Charleston is.
Last edited by packs; 03-09-2018 at 08:07 AM. |
#10
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Great point
Great point. Sometimes we get wrapped up in our own view of the world. Fair enough.
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Al Jurgela Looking for: 1910 Punch (Plank) 50 Hage's Dairy (Minoso) All Oscar Charleston Cards Rare Soccer cards Rare Boxing cards |
#11
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I really do hope that one day players like Charleston get their due because it's undoubtedly deserved. But I think in order for that to happen Major League Baseball would have to play a large role in raising awareness. There are turn back the clock nights where teams will wear Negro League uniforms, but there isn't really an effort made to educate the public about anything related tot he Negro Leagues or its players. Even the HOF only votes sporadically for Negro League players, which to me marginalizes them further.
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#12
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#13
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Babe Ruth said Pop Lloyd was the best Negro League player. Monte Irvin said Josh Gibson was the best. So who is right? McGraw? Ruth? Irvin? All see are are conflicting opinions. Also, some stories are exagurated like the one that Oscar would have made "the catch" in the 1954 World Series, but would have been waiting for the ball to arrive instead of making the catch on the dead run like Mays. |
#14
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Cobb and Williams never faced black players....is Cobb still hitting .366 lifetime? You see the flawed argument on both sides...
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#15
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Ted Williams actually faced Satchel Paige. He went 1-6. It was, of course, very late in their careers, but your point is well taken.
Last edited by orly57; 03-10-2018 at 07:10 AM. |
#16
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Exactly
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http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/pl...rID=lloyd01joh In the few games that Charleston played against MLB players he raked with an .347 average and OPS of 1.224. http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/pl...rID=charl01osc Could he have kept it up? Who knows, but intuition tells me that it is highly likely that he would have been elite if ever given the chance to shine. Why? Because he shined anyway! He basically had the same number (but a lower slugging percentage) when he played against the negro league players on a more consistent basis. I tend to believe that the negro leagues and the MLB leagues are closer in talent and depth than most people do. Think about it.... this was basically the only professional sport than African Americans athletes played. There was no football and basketball to siphon the talent pool. Anyway, just my 2 cents. |
#17
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Ted Williams hit .388 in 1957 when blacks could pitch in the majors. Besides Bob Gibson, what great black pitcher has their been since 1947? How many pitchers post intregation were as good as Walter Johnson or Cy Young? My opinion is yes he still would have hit .366 if mlb was integrated.
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#18
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1. Don Newcombe 2. Juan Marichal 3. Feggie Jenkins 4. Pedro Martinez 5. Luis Tiant Short term greatness 1. Dwight Gooden 2. Vida Blue 3. Mudcat Grant 4. Ramon Martinez 5. JR Richards |
#19
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B) The appropriate comparison should be not to the two greatest pitchers in MLB history but to the below average pitchers of the 1940s who wouldn't have been on the roster to face Teddy if the game had integrated earlier. |
#20
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Last edited by Kenny Cole; 03-11-2018 at 01:48 AM. |
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