Cleveland Indians name....is this true??

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Posted By: anthony

Louis "Sock" Sockalexis, a native american indian was drafted by the cleveland spiders in 1895 or 1896 to play major league ball. he apparently played only 66 games and batted .338 that year. Hugh Jennings said "he was the best he had ever seen." Jennings wrote: "he should of been the greatest player of all times- greater than Cobb, Wagner, Lajoie, Hornsby and any other of the men who made history for the game."

when "Sock" was playing for cleveland, sportswriters for rival teams dubbed the team "The Indians." The name soon replaced Spiders and more than a century later, the team name remains the "Indians".

anyone else heard this story? and was he that good??

I got this story from a book of little known fact in american history.

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Posted By: George Dreher

Cleveland sportswriters voted for the name in 1915. That was 18 years after Sockalexis played for Cleveland.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Most likely it was a copycat move by the Cleveland sportswriters to give them a nickname similar to the Miracle Boston Braves, but it is also true that the Spiders were called Indians frequently when Sockalexis was playing for them.

So I deem you both right!

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Wasn't their official name the Naps during much of Lajoie's tenure there (between Spiders and Indians)? Or was that an unofficial nickname?

Tim

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

The story is true.
Booze did Sockalexis in.

It was similar to what happened with the Highlanders.
For a few years before they were officially designated as the N. Y. Yankees, the Highlanders in some circles were referred to as the NY Yankees.
An example would be the 1910 P2 Pins.

The Cleveland writers made it official, but only after they caught up to the fans.

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Posted By: anthony

yeah, the yankees i believe got their nickname from the southern teams that would play the yankees, i'm assuming the "rebels" that had fathers who fought in the civil war gave it to them...

what about this numbers? could he have been better than cobb or wagner? 66 games isnt a whole lot...i could name a few rookie of the years that fizzled really fast

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

That's a tough question for you, me, and most of the people alive today.

I was born in 1931.
Sockalexis died on Christmas eve 1913.
He played his last game 1899.

When I first read about him, was when I was a young teenager during the mid 1940's.
Can't remember the name of the book, all I can remember is that it was a sad story, and left me feeling sorry for him.

Being that I feel that it's safe to say that there's no one around that saw him play, ... the only thing that we can rely on are the words of contemporaries that played with him, against him or watched him play.

Jennings played from 1892 - 1918

Jennings played against Sockalexis 1897 - 98 - 99.

Jennings got to see Sockalexis - Wagner - Cobb during his playing, and coaching days.

What impresses me about what Jennings says, is that he's talking about an opponent that he played against. ... that's heavy.

Anthony, the only thing that I can recommend, is to dig up a good book on Sockalexis.
Any other thoughts - anyone?

Oh BTW, there was another Chief on the team, Chief Zimmer.
Chief Zimmer was around baseball for a longer period of time, but Chief Zimmer and Chief Sockalexis played together 1897/98/99 thus, The Cleveland Indians.

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Posted By: E. Angyal

called "Indian Summer" that I am currently reading. Picked it up at Half Price Books last week for $7.50.

Eric

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Posted By: anthony

i will have to look into that book, thanks!

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Posted By: Rhys

I have researched and collected Sockalexis memorabilia for a long time and read every book out there as well as conversated with many of the authors. It sort of bothers me that people look for reasons not to give Sockalexis his credit cite newspaper articles from 1915 without going back further to the contextual sources and origins for proof.

While playing in the mid 1890's for Cleveland the team was constantly refered to as the Indians because of Sockalexis. For about 4 months he was the darling of baseball and the name was somewhat out of respect for him but used EVERY DAY to refer to the team. During the last 1 1/2 years the nickname was still used but mostly to poke fun at his rapidly declining skills. Basically for 2 years the Cleveland team was referred to as the Indians or Red Men or something with a Native American ring to it.

They had a vote well after Sockalexis' career from people who were old enough to remember the 1890's and came to the conclusion that the "Indians" was the name to stick. They did not necessarily do it to directly honor Sockalexis but there is absolutely no doubt that he was the genesis of the name.

Rhys Yeakley

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Posted By: Russ Bright

Wow, what a sad story. I never knew anything about Sockalexis... but the thing that I think is the saddest is the comment in the Wiki about him (wikipedia.org)

By 1906, he had returned to his people and most likely stopped drinking or got it under control.

What a callous remark from someone who knows nothing about alcoholism as a disease. He died in 1913 at the age of 42 from heart failure... There weren't good places to "dry out" in those days and I'm sure that the health care afforded a "redman" really didn't help him at all...

He drank himself to death, and it's always sad to hear stories of amazingly talented people who drink/drug themselves to death...

I always learn something new on this board, thanks! Sorry to bring the mood down...

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Posted By: Bill Stone

Also check out --Baseball's First Indian -Louis Sockalexis by Ed Rice.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I've heard competing opinion as to to whether the Indians were named after Louis.

I had some 1920s-30s Drayper Maynard letters from the president on official D-M stationary. As part of the ornate design they had a list of famous old timer ball players who had used D-M products. Don't remember all the names but they were on the order of Cobb, Anson, Cochrane, King Kelly, etc. One of the names was Louis Sockalexis. So, even at that time, Louis was recognized as a significant enough player that a mainstream corporation would boast that he had used their product ... This may suggest that, when Cleveland was nicknamed the Indians in 1915, Louis was well known and recognized amongst baseball writers, and perhaps even considered something of a legend. Drayper Maynard wouldn't have put 'Louis Sockalexis' on their company stationary if it wasn't a well known name at the time.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Wikipedia can be edited by anyone so you're going to find stuff on there that is callous, wrong and just plain mean sometimes. It is not the best source of information on the web.

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Posted By: Ray Piskadlo

I thought the "Yankees" got their name from a reporter because "Highlanders" was too long of a name in print. Heard that more than once.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Officially the Highlanders became the Yankees at the start of the 1913 season, but the P2 Pins show that they were commonly referred to as Yankees before 1913. I think fans just preferred to call them Yankees and it was no longer right to call them Highlanders when they moved to the Polo Grounds at the start of the 1913 season.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Let's continue to dig into the thinking of that period.
We'll start with the time frame around Chief Zimmer.
Chief Zimmer played between 1884 - 1903, and was with the Cleveland club when Chief Sockalexis joined the team in 1897.
True, Sockalexis became the darling of the fans, but it was due to the fact that the club now had two Indians on the club that they started calling them the Cleveland Indians.
There were very few Indians playing baseball, and to have two on the same team, was note worthy.

Also, we must keep in mind that when Chief Zimmer started playing ball in 1884, that was only 8 years removed from Custer's 1876 battle of the "Little Big Horn," and only 21 years removed from Chief Sockalexis start in 1897.
At my stage of the game, 1987-2007 (20 yrs) is a drop in a bucket, it's like yesterday.

During the years around our young nation's centennial, it wasn't just a question of prejudice, we were actually invading, and attacking their homes.
Needless to say, the comfort zone between the Native Americans and their former tenants, weren't very comfortable.

It was only natural for the former generous landlords to want to over achieve over their former tenants.
Chief Bender.
Chief Meyers.
Chief Zimmer.
Chief Sockalexis.
It was in their blood.

They were unable to hang the title of Chief on Jim Thorpe.
Unable because Thorpe made one hell of a statement during his 1912 Olympic competition, that plus the fact that the King of Sweden said a few nice things about Thorpe.

So they did the next best thing.
They took away all his medals.

One can easily understand why our Native Americans have the drive and determination to learn and compete in America's National Game.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Chief Zimmer was NOT a native American. He got the nickname when he was the manager of a team named the "Indians"...Not the Cleveland team.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

What is your source? ... and I'm not asking to be argumentive.

Would you have any info on:
Chief Roseman?
Chief Johnson?
Chief Wilson?
Chief Chouneau?
Chief Youngblood?
Chief Yellowhorse?
Chief Hogsett?

Any more Chief's out there?

Dan - Thanks in advance.

Joe

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Just doing a quick Google search I come up with this: http://webpages.charter.net/joekuras/bhxi3d.htm>

I believe I first heard that Chief Zimmer was not a Native American Indian when I read about the Zimmer baseball game which was patented by Chief Zimmer.

Chief Johnson was indeed a Native American. He was of the Winnebego tribe from Nebraska. He pitched for the Nebraska Indians and is the only fulltime NI player to play in the Major leagues - Sam Crawford played a couple of games for the NI, but was not a regular.

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Posted By: Rhys

Chief Zimmer was the captain of the Poughkeepsie Indians baseball team and as a result, since the team was the "Indians" and he was their leader, he was nicknames Chief. This is widely known and I used to own a Zimmer cabinet while he played with Poughkeepsie.

Sockalexis was probably the best natural talent to ever play. Ed Barrow said he was better than Ruth while Barrow was Ruth's GM. Jennings, McGraw and countless other managers and executives who were paid to evaluate talent all said pretty much the same thing. Not that he was the best player ever, but the best natural talent that any of them had ever seen.

Just for reference, there are about 4-5 photos picturing Sockalexis known to exist in private hands while a few others are in archives and University libraries, and one known signature at the Archives at Holy Cross University. Depending on who you talk to, there is either one or two known examples of his Cameo Pepsin Gum Pin. His personal possessions he had and a scrapbook of his achievments were at a relatives house on Indian Island in Maine and later all burned in a House Fire.

I gre up near his reservation and even the Penobscot tribe themselves owned essentially nothing vintage on Sockalexis. I will try and get a scan of my one original Sockalexis piece up later.

Rhys Yeakley

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Posted By: anthony

i read in a few books and even saw in a couple documentaries that the south had started to call them yankees everytime they came down to play, maybe the reporter started using the name since highlanders was too long but was given the idea from the south, like everything if someone didnt live to see it, there are many different stories.

also, wasnt there a "chief smok'em-pipe-too-much" and a "chief sit-on-pot-too-long"

thanks for the info on "sockelexis" as well, didnt think there was such a hugh fan base...thats why i like this board!!

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Sorry I didn't get back sooner.
Had to get some supplies, then when I got back, I had to take care of some things.
Then I took on the sites that you posted. .. Wow! - Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I just finished reading them. ... my sun dial reads 03:40AM.

I wish that I could remember the title, but it helped me nail down the year (1944) when that 13 year old kid (me) read the book that mentioned Sockalexis, and it brought a lump to my throat.
Sockalexis and Wahooism was truly a sad read.

Bear in mind, most of the books that you guys are talking about came much later. .... followed by the internet.

The Chief Zimmer story was also an interesting read, I didn't know that story, but then again, when the fans looked at their programs ... they would see two Chief's, a real one, and an appointed one.
Dan, thanks again.
-----------------------

Hello Rhys,
Also much appreciative for your interesting information.

With the names of Jennings, McGraw, Ed Barrow's and other knowledgeable contemporaries casting their votes for Sockalexis, I just have to cast my vote with the gut feeling of that 13 year old kid, of 63 years ago.

I find the Poughkeepsie Indians baseball team information, very interesting.
You say that the Chief Zimmer information is widely known, I agree with you, but widely known only within the confines of the specialist in that area.
Again Rhys, thanks for sharing.
Would love to see that Sockalexis scan.

Joe

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Posted By: Rhys

Here is a scan of my Sockalexis photo. It is a mammoth Imperial Cabinet photo of the 1895 Holy Cross baseball team. One example was given to each team member and the only other known example in the Holy Cross archives. Along with Sockalexis in the photo is Doc Powers (famous A's catcher and friend of Louis), John Pappalau, one other future pro whose name escapes me, and Jesse Burkett who was a Worcester resident and team coach each year for Holy Cross.

Rhys Yeakley

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

That's one beautiful team foto to really be proud of.
If I'm not being too inquisitive, how did you come upon it?

For a fleeting micro second, I entertained the thought that the baseball in front of the team foto, is an autographed Sockalexis ball. .... would be nice, but that foto is super.

Thanks for sharing,
Joe

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Posted By: prewarsports

The photo came from the estate of player in the photo, George Kerrigan. He is at the upper left of the photo. I bought it several years ago. The only known Sockalexis signature is in a U. archive and will never come up for sale. If it did I would expect a $15K-$20K price on it.

Rhys

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Posted By: Joe Tocco

Great thread, guys. That cabinet gave me goosebumps. It's amazing to contemplate the life of a man like this.

Joe

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

What else can I say, but thanks again for sharing.

You know, it's got me to thinking some more about that time frame period.
Earlier, I mentioned something about the Little Big Horn time frame of 1876, but I forgot about the Wounded Knee massacre of Dec. 1890. (almost 1891)
That's just a little over 4 1/2 years from Sockalexis playing days at Holy Cross in 1895.
During the latter part of the 19th century, young America was still of the mind set of: "The only good injun is a dead injun."
Knowing that, let us, if we can and will, place ourselves in the redman's moccasins. (remember, we're back in those days.)

How would you feel, if you were a professional ball player, and some of the insecure, talentless white eyes in the stands were calling you names, and attacking your heritage?

As a thirteen year old, I lamented a man's trial and tribulations, now, sixty three years later, I still do, and I find that I'm not alone.

This kind of thread. is what helps put the capital "V" in the Vintage baseball card forum.
I feel that some of the boys and girls on this board will agree with that.

I want to thank all those that shared their thoughts.
Any more thoughts about Sockalexis, and his times?
This geezer is always willing to learn some more.
Joe

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Joe, the racism towards American Indians went beyond the 19th century. Guy Green's Nebraska Indians Baseball Club is an area of my research and collecting (in case you hadn't noticed ) this club was around from 1897 to the early 1920s on a continual basis and at some point in the early 1930s they were reassembled for a couple of years. Some of the things that they were subjected to were accusations of theft in many towns that they came into even though they rarely left the ballpark...they would set up tents and stay at the park because they couldn't stay in hotels, the fans would taunt them with racist slurs and "war whoops".

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I didn't know about your specialty area, but I do now.
My compliments. ... I'm shamelessly drooling.
Thank you for the information based on the The Nebraska Indian baseball team.
I see your nice looking "Z" of Cheif Johnson.

We know about Chief: Bender, Meyers, Sockalexis, Yellowhorse, Youngblood, Hogsett and appointed Chief Zimmer.
Any word on Chief:
Roseman?
Chourneau?
Wilson?

For me, and I feel that I'm not alone.
I always feel privileged to see the pre WWI specialty area's of my fellow collectors.
I thank you for that.
Joe