Mastro pleads guilty

[BigRedOne]

I think PSA knowningly graded the card for the notoriety and exposure it was certain to bring the PSA brand.

There are those PSA apologists who defend this is not the case, but its hard to believe that you put your top graders and experts on one of the hobbys most valuable and iconic cards and they "miss it"

Come on now, Don't piss down my back and tell me its raining.

Ive never bought from any of the big auction houses as I always felt they were corrupt and suspect.

The bigger issue to me is the corruption that took place with the TPGer.

John

[martindl]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Guys, Bill Mastro's crimes in this hobby did not start and end with the trimming of the Wagner card. His fraud was ongoing, systematic and all-encompassing. The great majority of people who bid in a Mastro auction were victims of his fraud.

I'm surprised at all the focus on the one trimmed card when ^^^^ is really the bigger issue. Allegedly, one of the hobby's biggest auction houses was for years ripping off it's customers, be it with altered cards, misrepresented items or just plain old shill bidding.

[Peter_Spaeth]

When the one trimmed card is the most famous in the hobby, has sold for upwards of 2 million, and is the card that ushered in the era of third party grading, I think the focus is understandable.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

The scandal is far bigger than one high profile card or one corrupt auction house. It became obvious to me and a lot of other collectors that there was a major widespread grading problem 7 years ago and the people responsible did nothing to correct the problem but only stay silent, silence and ban the whistleblowers and when forced to answer questions brought up by their loyal followers they would "spin" the issues by discrediting the critics.

At some point the national media has to pick up on this, especially when Mastro does plead guilty and if there is any sense of justice there needs to be some drastic changes or just shut the operation down. The biggest problem is that most collectors don't want that to happen and they become as much as the problem as the people directly responsible.

[hammer]

Third party grading is supposed to protect the collectors not sleep in bed with the dealers. Ha Ha Ha. Thanks PSA.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Runscott

This has to be a rhetorical question.

Divergent question.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Leon]

If you are going to bash a person or company you need to have your full name in your post. Put it there or it will be put there per the rules. thanks

[hammer]

Not bashing just stating facts you grade the first card ever in your company that is trimmed and you grade it PSA 8 for a certain person or company like that and if you gave service in a another company like that you would be Shut Down. I hate to tell you wake up and smell the Roses oh yea you are a dealer also so Sorry.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by hammer

Not bashing just stating facts you grade the first card ever in your company that is trimmed and you grade it PSA 8 for a certain person or company like that and if you gave service in a another company like that you would be Shut Down. I hate to tell you wake up and smell the Roses oh yea you are a dealer also so Sorry.

Thanks for putting your name out here.

[botn]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The biggest problem is that most collectors don't want that to happen and they become as much as the problem as the people directly responsible.

Dan,

You were one of those collectors during the When It Was A Game fraud. I am sure you can understand the motivation even if now you feel differently.

Greg

[Runscott]

To me, the entire thing is incredibly ironic.

The following, of course, is all theory

• An amazing card is 'found' by a businessman ($$$-driven) who loves cards
• The card is oversized, so he has it made 'normal' size, realizing it will look even better and be worth even more $,$$$,$$$,$$$
• But he also realizes that altering cards is still sort of frowned upon in the hobby. So a plan is formed, and here is where the irony is born:
• A grading company is created for the express purpose of grading this one amazing card, therefore authenticating that it is unaltered. You are wearing blinders if you think anyone involved didn't understand 'the plan'. But maybe everyone was just incredibly naive?
• Hobbyists knew nothing about grading companies or slabbed cards, because this was the only one of either in existence (But I'm sure they could relate it to stamps or coins)
• Now, the irony: This card in its new-fangled plastic slab, created the importance that we, as collectors, have put on card-grading and plastic slabs.
• ...so, if the Feds had gotten involved as soon as this card was slabbed and sold, everyone would have laughed. The perpetrators created a future hanging for themselves that could only occur if they were hugely successful.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

It's hard to detect sarcasm on the Internet, but its in an A holder

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/890.html

Honest question. So one card from the strip is graded an 8 while the other is an A. The only difference being one was cut from the strip with more care?

And how can PSA continue to deny the Wagner's history when they have also graded the other significant card on the strip?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

To me, the entire thing is incredibly ironic.

The following, of course, is all theory

• An amazing card is 'found' by a businessman ($$$-driven) who loves cards
• The card is oversized, so he has it made 'normal' size, realizing it will look even better and be worth even more $,$$$,$$$,$$$
• But he also realizes that altering cards is still sort of frowned upon in the hobby. So a plan is formed, and here is where the irony is born:
• A grading company is created for the express purpose of grading this one amazing card, therefore authenticating that it is unaltered. You are wearing blinders if you think anyone involved didn't understand 'the plan'. But maybe everyone was just incredibly naive?
• Hobbyists knew nothing about grading companies or slabbed cards, because this was the only one of either in existence (But I'm sure they could relate it to stamps or coins)
• Now, the irony: This card in its new-fangled plastic slab, created the importance that we, as collectors, have put on card-grading and plastic slabs.
• ...so, if the Feds had gotten involved as soon as this card was slabbed and sold, everyone would have laughed. The perpetrators created a future hanging for themselves that could only occur if they were hugely successful.

Mastro sold the Wagner to Jim Copeland in 1987. PSA was formed in 1991. And Alan Hager was slabbing cards before PSA did, through ASA.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by botn

Dan,

You were one of those collectors during the When It Was A Game fraud. I am sure you can understand the motivation even if now you feel differently.

Greg

I don't follow your thinking. CU & PSA was open about the When It Was A Game fraud and so was I and I posted CU press releases on the PSA Board like this.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-73845467.html


I will say now looking back at the quotes by Orlando and Hall in the above article are pathetically lame in light of a lot worse things that have come to light since. This one is a doozy....

"We are dedicated to protecting collectibles consumers from fraud and misrepresentation in any form. We also fervently value our brand name. We will continue to work to protect collectors, and our own reputation, zealously."

[botn]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I don't follow your thinking. CU & PSA was open about the When It Was A Game fraud and so was I and I posted CU press releases on the PSA Board like this.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-73845467.html


[/B]

Well PSA and CU were not honest nor open about what really happened. Can you show me where they informed collectors what to look for in the compromised holders? Can you show me where they informed collectors about the extent of the crime giving details of what cert numbers or cards were subject of the fraud? Did PSA ever inform the public of whether WIWAG obtained holders or was using previously sealed holders? If they did I missed that one too. It was a massive cover up. You may have posted that out of relief that the matter was over. Anyway, did not mean to derail the thread.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mastro sold the Wagner to Jim Copeland in 1987. PSA was formed in 1991. And Alan Hager was slabbing cards before PSA did, through ASA.

Here is a card graded by his company.

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2012/210.html

Not mine, unfortunately.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hager invented, or at least had a patent on, the "arrowhead" holder PSA uses. He also claimed to have invented the 1-10 grading system but as I recall that was not patentable.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mastro sold the Wagner to Jim Copeland in 1987. PSA was formed in 1991. And Alan Hager was slabbing cards before PSA did, through ASA.

So, when PSA slabbed the card, it was NOT sold by Mastro? I must have missed something. Sorry about that. Also, I don't recall slabbed cards having any influence on anything or anyone prior to PSA, but again, I could be mis-remembering.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

So, when PSA slabbed the card, it was NOT sold by Mastro? I must have missed something. Sorry about that. Also, I don't recall slabbed cards having any influence on anything or anyone prior to PSA, but again, I could be mis-remembering.

No, it was owned by Gretzky and McNall at the time, it was after they had purchased it in the Copeland auction.

[tbob]

Anyone else wonder why the judge was changed this late in the proceedings? So far, no one's saying.
I also get the part about his (Mastro) accepting reponsibility and cooperating with the Government to lessen the offense level and the Government probably dismissing some of the counts in the indictment and requesting a downward departure (5k1.1) but it will be interesting to see how many counts remain and whether any of the counts pertaining to the skinning of Mastro Auction bidders will remain. Lots of unanswered questions still out there......

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, it was owned by Gretzky and McNall at the time, it was after they had purchased it in the Copeland auction.

Okay, I just went back and checked the book to see what gave me that impression. See page 87.

edited to add: The author of 'The Card' did a great job of pushing his own viewpoint. Page 87 had a pretty huge effect on my thinking, and "no", I did not read the book more than once . I feel sort of like I've been 'Oliver Stoned'.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by botn

Well PSA and CU were not honest nor open about what really happened. Can you show me where they informed collectors what to look for in the compromised holders? Can you show me where they informed collectors about the extent of the crime giving details of what cert numbers or cards were subject of the fraud? Did PSA ever inform the public of whether WIWAG obtained holders or was using previously sealed holders? If they did I missed that one too. It was a massive cover up. You may have posted that out of relief that the matter was over. Anyway, did not mean to derail the thread.

Greg,

Here's one announcement PSA put out. It's hardly a massive cover up in my opinion since any cards originating from WIWAG were eligible for review.

http://www.psacard.com/articles/arti...tml?artid=3741

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan as I am sure you know PSA review often is not very meaningful.

Greg knows the situation better than I do, but my recollection is that collectors were basically left to their own devices or to deal with the FBI as if that was going to help anyone. No effort was made to inform collectors what to look for in a tampered holder, or what cards were involved, or how it all happened, and so forth.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

To me, the entire thing is incredibly ironic.

The following, of course, is all theory

• An amazing card is 'found' by a businessman ($$$-driven) who loves cards
• The card is oversized, so he has it made 'normal' size, realizing it will look even better and be worth even more $,$$$,$$$,$$$
• But he also realizes that altering cards is still sort of frowned upon in the hobby. So a plan is formed, and here is where the irony is born:
• A grading company is created for the express purpose of grading this one amazing card, therefore authenticating that it is unaltered. You are wearing blinders if you think anyone involved didn't understand 'the plan'. But maybe everyone was just incredibly naive?
• Hobbyists knew nothing about grading companies or slabbed cards, because this was the only one of either in existence (But I'm sure they could relate it to stamps or coins)
• Now, the irony: This card in its new-fangled plastic slab, created the importance that we, as collectors, have put on card-grading and plastic slabs.
• ...so, if the Feds had gotten involved as soon as this card was slabbed and sold, everyone would have laughed. The perpetrators created a future hanging for themselves that could only occur if they were hugely successful.

Coin grading goes back well before PSA/PCGS. The ANA used to issue certificates that included grades at least in the 70's maybe before. Of course, swapping certs was common so they added pictures which didn't help much since excited buyers are often a bit blind. So slabbing began in the 80's

Stamps have a very long history of certificates indicating authenticity, since at least the 1930's. Expert marks were used before that and still are. (Yes, they stamp a symbol on the back) Only recently did PSA attempt slabbing stamps, an idea that seems to have failed. They did get oneother authenticating service to begin adding grades to the certificate, and that seems to be getting some support, although with exactly the same sorts of arguments about the grading itself. The stamp grades and authentication are much more reliable than for cards.

It will be interesting to see if the Wagner ends up in an A slab. I suppose the current owner or some future owner would have to request that?



Steve B

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Guys, Bill Mastro's crimes in this hobby did not start and end with the trimming of the Wagner card. His fraud was ongoing, systematic and all-encompassing. The great majority of people who bid in a Mastro auction were victims of his fraud.

+1 which seems to be getting lost in everything

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Guys, Bill Mastro's crimes in this hobby did not start and end with the trimming of the Wagner card. His fraud was ongoing, systematic and all-encompassing. The great majority of people who bid in a Mastro auction were victims of his fraud.

+2 I bought a lot of items, and spent a lot of money, from Mastro Auctions in good but misplaced faith. Suckers raped my wallet, allegedly or otherwise. The list of sins is long; the corruption imposed on our hobby is wide. Mr Lichtman's point is important.