Over/Underpriced HOFers

[judsonhamlin]

Putting aside short prints and related issues, who do you regard as underpriced and overpriced Hall of Fame players?
On the underpriced front, I would suggest two infielders who seem to be available at or near the HOF minimum: Eddie Collins and Pie Traynor. Both were the best (or maybe 2nd best for Collins) at their respective positions while they were active, but don't cost anywhere near high $ HOFers.
On the overpriced front, I would nominate two pitchers with big personalities, Dizzy Dean and Ed Walsh. I think Dean gets a bump for both his personality and broadcast career and Walsh for a couple of wow seasons, but obviously not a long career.
I'm sure there are other players who could qualify on these lists... Any thoughts?

[Cardboard Junkie]

Depends on the issue of course but in T206's I've always thought Mordecai Brown (portrait) was a little undervalued and one of the most attractive portraits in the set. Of course there is kind of different tiers to hall of famers too, like Walsh, whom you mentioned. Good question. Dave. ps picked up this Brown for less than 100 bucks.

[cyseymour]

Tris Speaker and Nap Lajoie are underpriced imo. I can vibe with the Eddie Collins pick but not Pie Traynor. Traynor was lucky to be in. So was Rube Marquard. I would say Traynor and Marquard are overpriced even if they are lower-tier.

I kinda think Joe DiMaggio cards are underpriced. For a modern player, I would say Derek Jeter. Yes, really.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

I can vibe with the Eddie Collins pick but not Pie Traynor. Traynor was lucky to be in. So was Rube Marquard. I would say Traynor and Marquard are overpriced even if they are lower-tier.

I kinda think Joe DiMaggio cards are underpriced.

Traynor, along with Jimmy Collins are typically viewed as the best 3rd Basemen up to the 1950's... hard to say he is lucky to be in the lowest tier?

About DiMaggio, his cards are literally some of the most expensive in the hobby, and those that are worth more are far superior players IMO. I couldn't disagree with you more on those two.

[bender07]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Traynor, along with Jimmy Collins are typically viewed as the best 3rd Basemen up to the 1950's... hard to say he is lucky to be in the lowest tier?

About DiMaggio, his cards are literally some of the most expensive in the hobby, and those that are worth more are far superior players IMO. I couldn't disagree with you more on those two.

Agreed. I remember my Dad telling me that when he was growing up in the mid 40's (born in '36), the all time team was Gabby, Gehrig, Rajah, Hans, Pie, Spoke, Ty and the Babe. All cool names to boot!

[Bored5000]

Grove Cleveland Alexander always seems undervalued, given where he ranks all-time. Alexander's Cracker Jack cards go for a decent amount, but most Alexander cards seem cheap, relative to his place in baseball history.

I wonder how much of Alexander's card prices are impacted by his reputation as an incorrigible drunk as opposed to the saintly reputation of Christy Mathewson or the general larger than life reputations of Walter Johnson and Cy Young.

[rhettyeakley]

Underrated: Agree 100% on Eddie Collins.

Other nominees are John McGraw, Pie Traynor/Jimmy Collins, Charlie Gehringer, Al Simmons, Tim Keefe, and Roger Connor.

Overrated: Reggie Jackson, Hack Wilson, Dizzy Dean, Brooks Robinson.

[cyseymour]

Rhett, you are forgetting to take into consideration the era in which the player played. For instance, Reggie Jackson and Brooks Robinson played in extreme pitching eras and actually put up very good WAR ratings in spite of their raw stats. Factor in Brooks Robinson's outstanding defense and he definitely belongs. Also, a horrible year at age 38 kind of drags down his hitting stats. Traynor has the better stats on the surface, but if you look deeper, Robinson was the better player.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Rhett, you are forgetting to take into consideration the era in which the player played. For instance, Reggie Jackson and Brooks Robinson played in extreme pitching eras and actually put up very good WAR ratings in spite of their raw stats. Factor in Brooks Robinson's outstanding defense and he definitely belongs. Also, a horrible year at age 38 kind of drags down his hitting stats. Traynor has the better stats on the surface, but if you look deeper, Robinson was the better player.

Actually. no I'm not forgetting about the era they played in. I have read more Bill James and SABR-metrics statistical analyses than anyone I know. I understand where you are coming from and part of me agrees but at the end of the day Brooks just wasn't that great of a hitter yet he gets mad kudos from people, the same people that like to say Bill Mazeroski is the worst HOFer...ever. I just feel like a lot of the guys that delve too into statistics tend to have a hard time seeing the forest for the trees. Brooks may very well be the best fielder at his position, but his cards shouldn't be worth more than guys like Frank Robinson and the like, it just defies logic to me.

It seems to me that you are really eager to overlook Robinson's shortcomings (ie hitting) and very quick to denigrate Pie Traynor or Jimmy Collins strengths. I don't agree that Brooks was the better player, and many would agree with me, although I am probably in the minority as Brooks seems to be a fan favorite as people in Baltimore love the guy.

[cyseymour]

Brooks was certainly not on the level of Frank Robinson and honestly I don't follow the card prices for either of them, so I can't comment on that. But in relation to Brooks and Traynor, their eras were so dramatically different that when you look at their hitting, they both posted similar OPS+ (104 to 107). But Brooks had a much longer career than Traynor and was superior defensively at an important position. So I will take Brooks over Traynor anyday. I am not saying that Jimmy Collins and Traynor don't deserve to be in the HOF, just that Brooks Robinson is a first-ballot HOFer who was the greatest defensive 3B-man of all time, a legend in Baltimore, won an MVP and sixteen straight gold gloves.

[MattyC]

I agree that Joe DiMaggio is underpriced. To me, egregiously so. I think Gehrig is as well-- when we consider how these two players transcended the sport, entering the realm of pop cultural icon status.

The 56 streak is about as hallowed a record as they come, and the Marilyn Monroe relationship is the stuff of legend.

As to Gehrig, is there another athlete with that same combination of performance height and tragic end? Some may say Clemente, who was a great player and man, but his numbers just do not touch Gehrig's. Then factor in the grace and character with which he handled his disease, what he must have gone through, and to author such a fine historical moment as his famous speech...

In terms of specific cards, I have always thought the Mantle RC was undervalued, considering it is his true RC and so tough to find with serious eye appeal. The centering is just brutal.

I'd have to throw in Ted Williams and Yogi Berra as well. To think Yogi had I believe seven seasons with more HRs than strikeouts, and we're not talking puny power there either. And his cards are so low compared to his illustrious pinstriped peers.

I agree Reggie's "brand" seems way out of sync with the back of his baseball card-- but that one game on that specific stage really did do him wonders.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by MattyC

As to Gehrig, is there another athlete with that same combination of performance height and tragic end? Some may say Clemente, who was a great player and man, but his numbers just do not touch Gehrig's. Then factor in the grace and character with which he handled his disease, what he must have gone through, and to author such a fine historical moment as his famous speech...

Clemente never had the power numbers that Gehrig did, you are absolutely correct, but he was not that kind of player. Remember, too, that Gehrig didn't play in an era dominating by pitching. In the mid to late 60s, pitching ruled the game. Hell, in 1968, Carl Yastrzemski led the American League with a .301 average.

When you're talking about Roberto, you have to factor in more than just his hitting. Clemente was, in my opinion, the greatest defensive right fielder to ever play the game, and I don't think anybody else is close. When you combine fielding instincts, arm strength and accuracy, he's almost untouchable. Only Willie Mays has as many career Gold Gloves as Clemente's 12. As for class and character, how about giving your life trying to help others? Gehrig was dealt a cruel blow, and was graceful in fighting to the end. But Clemente volunteered to head the earthquake relief to Nicaragua. Instead of serving as a figurehead, he got on the plane, and was going to fly down their himself. He didn't just talk, he backed it up, and it cost him his life. Clemente also faced the same bigotry that Jackie Robinson did when he broke to color barrier. Clemente was discriminated against being a dark skinned hispanic. He was outspoken, and proud of his heritage. Why do you think he is still idolized in Latin America?

Both men were great baseball players, and even better men. I greatly respect Gehrig, and realize he never got the respect he deserved while playing in Ruth's shadow. But Clemente was equally great. If he'd played in New York, or Los Angeles, he'd be revered at the same level that Mickey Mantle is.

[packs]

I agree about Clemente. Crazy to think that he almost did get to play in New York and LA for the Dodgers. Wonder how he would be viewed today if he had.

[cyseymour]

Bill is spot on about Clemente. Way underrated. In fact, he is right up there with Gehrig when you adjust for the era, maybe not quite there but if you factor in the defensive abilities, then yes.

Another guy who had an epic career and died tragically was Ed Delahanty. During his prime, he was every bit as good as those other two guys, but some poor stats in his early years as a 2b man drive down his career averages.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Since both have rookie cards from the same set, 1968 Topps, Johnny Bench is considered by just about everyone to be the best catcher of all-time while Nolan Ryan is far from the best pitcher of all-time. Yet, Ryan typically sells for around 3X what Bench does??? Maybe the inclusion of Jerry Koosman on the Ryan card explains it........

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Since both have rookie cards from the same set, 1968 Topps, Johnny Bench is considered by just about everyone to be the best catcher of all-time while Nolan Ryan is far from the best pitcher of all-time. Yet, Ryan typically sells for around 3X what Bench does??? Maybe the inclusion of Jerry Koosman on the Ryan card explains it........

That is an injustice, for sure. Ryan got a lot of attention for his strikeout numbers and no-hitters, but he also led the league in walks several times. When you factor in the league era, plus Bench's defensive abilities, I would take Bench over Ryan if I were to start a team. And I would take Tom Seaver over Ryan in a heartbeat...

[markf31]

I'll suggest Ralph Kiner. Granted his career was pretty short, lasting only 10 seasons, but the HR numbers he put up in those years are nothing short of impressive. 5 straight season of 40+ homers including 2 seasons of 50+. He led the NL in HRs from 1946-52 and led all the majors in 1947-52. Those 6 consecutive seasons of leading the majors in HRs ties him with Babe Ruth (1926-31) for the most consecutive seasons to lead the majors in HRs.

His 1948 Bowman and 1948 Leaf cards which some consider his RCs as they were the first major sets to feature him, can be had the PSA/SGC 7 range for under $300!

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by markf31

I'll suggest Ralph Kiner. Granted his career was pretty short, lasting only 10 seasons, but the HR numbers he put up in those years are nothing short of impressive. 5 straight season of 40+ homers including 2 seasons of 50+. He led the NL in HRs from 1946-52 and led all the majors in 1947-52. Those 6 consecutive seasons of leading the majors in HRs ties him with Babe Ruth (1926-31) for the most consecutive seasons to lead the majors in HRs.

His 1948 Bowman and 1948 Leaf cards which some consider his RCs as they were the first major sets to feature him, can be had the PSA/SGC 7 range for under $300!

+1. Bill James once wrote that during Kiner's prime, he was the closest thing to Babe Ruth in terms of pure homerun hitting dominance that had been seen to that point in time. Going purely by memory, Ralph had the second best homerun frequency to the Babe (one every 14.1 at bats, versus one every 11.8) prior to the PED era. He drew a tremendous amount of walks, and had a lifetime on-base-% of just under .400 (.398). If he hadn't played for one of the worst teams in the majors, and had instead played for a contender, he could easily have won the MVP three or more times. Lifetime OBPS of .946, if memory serves correctly, which is almost other-worldly for a lifetime .279 hitter (how do I remember all this stuff?? I don't consciously try to!). Six times an all-star, it would have been seven, if he hadn't hit only 3 of his 51 homers in 1947 by June 3, and I believe six seasons of scoring 100 or more runs, despite having no foot speed to speak of!

Rather than his 1948 cards, try finding one of his '47 Tip-Tops--PSA has graded just 6, a number that hasn't changed at all in quite a few years (which probably ties in quite well with REA's statement that there have been less than 10 complete sets of the '47 Tip-Tops assembled in the history of the hobby)!

Despite significant price tags on some of their cards, I also think some of the rarer and more significant DiMag and even Gehrig cards remain undervalued in view of their true status as real legends of the game, not that far down from the Babe himself.

Good topic!

Larry

[packs]

I've always thought most of the Old Judge HOFers cards are over priced. I get it, for most of them its their only card and it's cool that there's a photo of the actual player on the card. But there are so many of them out there for a lot of them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The disparity between the price of Mantle and Mays (and Aaron) cards is wholly unjustified in terms of onfield performance.

[cyseymour]

I would take Mays over Mantle. But for Hank Aaron, Aaron was very, very good, but the Mick was great. Aaron had outstanding longevity but never reached the same level of peak performance as Mays or Mantle and I wouldn't put him in the same class, especially since he was a corner outfielder and not a CF.

[Ghumbs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The disparity between the price of Mantle and Mays (and Aaron) cards is wholly unjustified in terms of onfield performance.

I was just about to post this. Besides the issues with Mays' off-field persona, I'm sure the mere fact Mays moved over to the West Coast with the Giants has a lot to do with it. There are just significantly more Yankees and East Coast baseball fans out there (even now, let alone back in the 50s and 60s).

I personally feel Mays is probably best to ever play the game so far. It's just odd that Mantle's card values are head and shoulders above Mays'.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by packs

I've always thought most of the Old Judge HOFers cards are over priced. I get it, for most of them its their only card and it's cool that there's a photo of the actual player on the card. But there are so many of them out there for a lot of them.

I realize this has a lot to do with what people view as tough/scarce/rare, but I disagree with this statement.

Our own cyseymour did an analysis back in 2011 of the number of combined graded examples (PSA and SGC) of the OJ HOFers.

At that time, he found that the total graded examples ranged from a low of 19 examples (W. Robinson) to a high of 113 (Ward). However, 15 out of the 27 (as of 2011) had less than 50 combined graded examples per player.

Of course I know that OJs are known to have a larger-than-normal ungraded population with large collections held by old-school collectors.

But the graded numbers certainly don't reveal easy cards...especially for the tougher 15 HOFers.

Cheers,
Blair

[packs]

I"m mainly talking about players like Clarkson, Keefe and Brouthers. There seem to be a lot of them out there at any given time. Not that "a lot" for OJs means the same a lot for T206s, but some of them don't seem scarce.

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by Bosox Blair

Our own cyseymour did an analysis back in 2011 of the number of combined graded examples (PSA and SGC) of the OJ HOFers.

At that time, he found that the total graded examples ranged from a low of 19 examples (W. Robinson) to a high of 113 (Ward). However, 15 out of the 27 (as of 2011) had less than 50 combined graded examples per player.

Cheers,
Blair

Blair or Jamie, do you have a link to this? I've posted SGC and PSA pop reports on N172 HOFers a couple times and have interest in the topic but don't remember others doing so (although I could have missed it).

Old Cardboard summarized one of my earlier posts from the old Net54 forum back in 2005 (here). shortly after 2005 I stopped including PSA in my summaries because their numbers seemed to be in error (players would all of a sudden gain or lose a substantial number of submissions). SGC has also graded far more cards so I just stick with SGC.

I more recently looked at the HOFer pop reports after Deacon White was elected. It was no big surprise when I found Deacon to be the rarest HOFer (8 cards graded with no population increase since it was announced last year - December 2012). As for most common, that distinction belongs with Keefe (over 100 graded when including his two player cards with Richardson). Keefe has a pretty healthy lead over Ward for the most common HOFer.

[digdugdig]

I don't know about card value but a dear friend once made a very convincing argument for being overlooked statistically for his time era...Lefty Grove.
His numbers during an era where it seems like the 9th place hitter on most teams was hitting .300 ... some pretty impressive stats!!

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Some one aleady mentioned Chuck Klein. I concur.

George Sisler was a truly GREAT hitter on some awful Browns teams, yet kind of an after-thought playing in the shadows of Ruth, Gehrig, Hornsby, etc.

There are others...

[CMIZ5290]

How about Johnny Evers as overpriced. Lifetime .270 batting average, and a couple of his T206s bring stupid prices in high grade...Undervalued, I would go with Addie Joss....

[DeanH3]

I would add Hornsby to the list of underpriced. Foxx and Grove are other great choices as well.

I think Mantle is overpriced. Great player for sure but overpriced in my opinion.

[oldjudge]

Hornsby is very undervalued--he is one of the top ten(five?) greatest hitters ever. His rookie Collins McCarthy type cards are very scarce. I think Cobb cards are also undervalued; he is arguably the second greatest player ever.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Hornsby is very undervalued--he is one of the top ten(five?) greatest hitters ever. His rookie Collins McCarthy type cards are very scarce. I think Cobb cards are also undervalued; he is arguably the second greatest player ever.

+1. IMO, a Hornsby Collins McCarthy is a real treasure--tough, tough card!

Best to all,

Larry

[tbob]

Another HOF Arkansan who is underrated and under appreciated is Lou Brock. Great defensively, solid hitter who just missed hitting a career .300 and speed, speed, speed. Like Brooks he is a true gentleman has a class individual.