TRIVIA.....Will history be repeated ? ?

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Posted By: David Atkatz

And just what role did that committee play in the campaign?

(And I haven't heard you comment on any of McCain's absurd statements.)

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Posted By: barrysloate

Howard- no, I meant no disrespect at all. He seemed like a decent soul who just wasn't up to the task. But Hartman played him loopy, for whatever reason. As Dan B. said, often an SNL skit is the first thing you remember when some topics are brought up.

How can anyone not chuckle about synchronized swimming after the hilarious sketch Martin Short and Harry Shearer did.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Joe, The One would never lie. If he said he never heard or knew about Wright making those statements, I believe him. After all, he is The One. So what if he disinvited Wright from the ceremony announcing The One's candidacy for president because, as he told Wright, "Your sermons can get a little rough"? That doesn't suggest that The One knew about the particulars of any of said "rough" sermons. Regardless, when the rise of the oceans begin to slow and our planet begins to heal you won't give a damn about the fact that maybe The One told a fib.

Sorry, David, I can't help but tease you a bit. In all seriousness, however, a new Rassmussen poll shows that of independent voters not affiliated with either party, 71% believe McCain is ready to be president while just 35% believe the same for The One. That suggests that it is not just beer-swilling idiots from red states that are not persuaded by lofty oratory read off a teleprompter in front of faux Greek temples.

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Posted By: Joe D.

David....

"Why don't you compare that little lie with some of McCain's statements?"


With your response I am left wondering....
are you conceding that Obama is full of cr@p and/or thinks we are morons?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- that's exactly my point, that despite the fact that Obama is intelligent and has good ideas he's not capturing the public's imagination. I think he may lose and then... gasp...four more years.

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Posted By: S Gross

Where's Gus Hall when you need him ??? ????

I won't even try to get into this "discussion," but write down these numbers:

McCain -- 53
Obama -- 44
Barr -- 3

(Barr's 3% is just wishfull thinking on my part, if you want, give'um to whoever)

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jeff, how many times are you going to mention the background from the Denver convention? As if that's the most important thing in this race....that's right McCain has no issues to run on so it's attack, attack, attack on the stupidest, most mundane things. American's (for the most part) aren't stupid...we know who's been running this country for the last 7 1/2 years and now they want a mulligan. Way to take ownership at the GOP convention...no mention of Bush/Cheney...Hell you couldn't even find the word "Republican" anywhere inside or outside of the building.

That Rasmussen poll doesn't say who voters are going to vote for does it? Did they poll people who only have cell phones?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, the comment about the background is just one thing; the fact is there are many, many things that trouble the typical voter about Obama. Had Obama selected Hilary as his running mate, do you even think the Dems would be in the position they are in right now? Course not. As for attack ads, Obama's campaign runs them all the time so it's hardly a Republican thing (even if they did invent it). As for the polls, they are sliding all in McCain's favor right now. Apparently Obama is only 5 points up in NY now, which is incredible.

Keep in mind as I said above I'm a lifelong Dem who has never voted Republican in any election in my life -- until now. I liked Obama a lot at the beginning because I believed he really might be the type of politician to change Washington for the better. But then the lies about Reverend Wright started me thinking...and the more I looked at him the more I believed he was just a slick marketing plan.

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Posted By: Brian Martin

I speak in tongues.

I try to get people fired that I personally dislike.

I believe the Iraq war is a mission sent from God.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

According to McCain, you're the "best choice of running mate in American history."

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Posted By: barrysloate

The Reverend Wright incident was definitely a gaffe, but I don't think the whole election will be based on one's feelings about it. Obama came out of it looking bad, how about we give him one strike and move on to more important things.

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Posted By: jdrum

A rock star, a beauty queen and two partisan hacks. But I am a cynic by nature.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, it wasn't a gaffe, it was a lie. And honesty is an important character trait in a presidential nominee. And that one lie exposed Obama to some large extent; he was on such a high pedestal compared to McCain that a similar lie from McCain would have had much less of an effect on voters.

The fact is the election will not be decided on the Net 54 boards no matter how angry people get. I think that the process is a very subtle one in which momentum plays a major factor. If Obama does not figure out how to reverse the momentum soon he will surely lose the election. I remember saying in August that I believed the one thing Obama could do to reverse the subtle slide he was going through then (this was pre-Palin) was to pick Hilary for VP. However, either because Bill was just too much to bear for him (I can't blame Obama for that) or just plain arrogance, he chose Biden instead. That was a mistake regardless of Biden's abilities. Unfortunately, in today's day and age 'ability' and 'competence' take a back seat to appearance and perception in the minds of American voters.

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Posted By: barrysloate

So Bush and Cheney never lied?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Of course they did. Where did I say that they did not? Difference is, they got caught after being elected.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Touche.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

So Jeff, you think McCain/Palin are the people who are really going to clean up Washington? So what do you think of McCain surrounding himself with lobbyists and the fact that Palin was not really against Pork barrel spending when it came to her state?

Also I'd like to hear your thoughts on Pastor Hagee and his association with John McCain. I sure am glad I'm not responsible for everything my pastor says.

The sad thing is here I know you're smarter than the average bear which leads me to believe you're being intellectually dishonest, for a "lifelong Democrat" to be voting for the first time in his life for a Republican after 8 years of perhaps the most dishonest administration in the history of the United States.

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Posted By: Brian Martin

"When only 1/3rd of the population supported George Washington."

Todays politicians have no interest in what the framers intended or what America should represent. If brought forward to 2008, Washington and Jefferson would purge Congress and the House and would be very ashamed of what our government has become.
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen and potential terrorist these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.
The democracy handed to us by the founding fathers and outlined in the Bill of Rights, Constitution and Declaration of Independence have been traded for the velvet glove and iron fist of the modern American megastate.
The people are trading in America for "Amerika" and don't even realize it.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

rev. wright was not part of obama's campaign. if anyone is going to pretend that wright speaks for obama or that a sermon given before obama was even running for president somehow speaks for obama and his principles they are trying desperately hard to find fault in someone totally separated from any of those statements. to try to portray wright as obama is a right wing blow-hard talking point and makes absolutely no sense.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

"The sad thing is here I know you're smarter than the average bear which leads me to believe you're being intellectually dishonest, for a "lifelong Democrat" to be voting for the first time in his life for a Republican after 8 years of perhaps the most dishonest administration in the history of the United States...

is unimaginable!!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, the issue of 'cleaning up Washington' is not the only issue that matters to me. Sad to say, in today's day and age we actually have bigger problems we're facing. I know that of McCain and Obama only one of them has shown major bipartisan tendencies -- and it is obviously not Obama. That is important to me to some degree as is national defense which is paramount.

Also, really, one can be intellectually honest and still vote for McCain. Truly. To suggest otherwise...is kind of arrogant, no?

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Posted By: howard

"And just what role did that committee play in the campaign?"

"And I haven't heard a comment on any of McCain's absurd statements"

I guess these questions are directed at me, David.

Religious leaders are usually gifted speakers with large audiences. The role of this committee was and is to speak to as many people as possible with the hope of securing as many votes as possible for Obama.

Why would I have made any comments on absurd statements made by McCain? My comment on Wright was made only to correct your comment that he was not part of the campaign. I checked the thread anyway and the only McCain quote that could fit the "absurd" bill was one you posted about Palin being the greatest VP choice ever. This may be absurd but it's harmless. It is the kind of thing that politicians say about their friends and running mates. On the other hand, if he meant that she's the candidate that has most helped a presidential candidate in the polls then she may well be the best choice ever.

Howard

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Posted By: Joe D.

Dan
"Also I'd like to hear your thoughts on Pastor Hagee and his association with John McCain. I sure am glad I'm not responsible for everything my pastor says."


Was / Is Pastor Hagee a chosen member of of McCain's campaign?

If not... you are confusing the issue (or denying the issue, one or the other).

I do not care about any of Obama's friends / pastors / relatives / etc....
only the ones Obama chooses to be part of his campaign.
That choice is basically a reflection on Obama's judgment.
And when the crap hit the fan....
That was a chance for Obama to show his integrity and show his ability to handle an adverse situation.
He failed miserably on all accounts.


Why did he lie about it when asked?
simple to me... he was afraid of the next question
"If you knew the God Damn America (and other) comments Wright was making - why would you choose him to be part of your campaign."

Apparently Obama did not want that question.
So he went we the golly, gosh, gee, really he said that?- defense.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Well you sure made it sound like the Reverend Wright and Denver backdrop were your major issues with Obama, but I will note that Obama's plan for the war in Iraq was endorsed by the Iraqi's (no sense in staying if we're going against the will of the people...you know that's the problem with Democracies! Heh!) and sure enough even Dubya came around to it after that. Also that war in Afghanistan...remember that one? Yeah Obama's plan also was endorsed by McCain who realized he had to come around to it.

So you go ahead and vote for the guy who thought Iran was in cahoots with Al Qaeda and thought that the Sunni Awakening was a result of the Surge...I'll vote for the guy who doesn't stand for the Bush status quo.

And that will be my last post in this thread...I've been discussing politics on the internet for over 12 years now and I've only changed one mind. That's not a big enough payoff to continue to waste this much time.

I'm going to edit this one just so I can give Joe a satisfactory answer. Hagee endorsed McCain and McCain accepted it...Hagee was found to have made racist, anti-Semitic remarks and McCain did not disavow Hagee's endorsement until he was pressured to do so...as far as Rev Wright's comments about damning America well in certain instances it's called for. America isn't always a shining beacon of light (Torture, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo) and I'm sure a black man of Wright's age clearly remembers the world before the Civil Rights acts of 1964. You really want to talk about un-American activities we can start with Sarah Palin's husband who was (is?) a member of a secessionist group. Doesn't get more un-American than that. Could you even imagine the sh*tstorm in this country if Obama's wife belonged to a group that wanted to secede from the union?

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Posted By: Joe D.

"rev. wright was not part of obama's campaign. "

ali -
he most certainly was.

unless of course we want to revise history.




Dan:
"And that will be my last post in this thread...I've been discussing politics on the internet for over 12 years now and I've only changed one mind. That's not a big enough payoff to continue to waste this much time."

that was great and true. This is my last post as well.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Yeah, Dan, good point. I doubt you'll change my mind.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

i'm curious about your feelings on obama, jeff. you say that national security is paramount in your decision on who you are going to vote for. why do you think mccain is the better choice?

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Posted By: howard

Like I said, barry, I know you weren't being disrespectful. I remeber laughing at that Stockdale bit myself. Phil Hartman is my all time favorite SNLer.

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Posted By: sagard

To me the question is whether or not McCain is the same man he was back in '00 or if he has officially moved to the mainstream fiscally irresponsible Republican party. Right now he isn't offering much except a nice ability to pickup hot younger women.

I've decided that I'm going to win either way this election. If Obama can pull the shocker, the Republicans will hopefully regroup and go back being fiscally conservative and rid themselves of the corruption that has seeped into their party.

If McCain wins I won't have to watch the far left rejoice.

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Posted By: leon

I feel that in the end I will vote for the person I want leading me (the country) as President. I think both candidates are very good. So, who would I prefer leading me? McCain or Obama? For me it's McCain....he is an American hero and has more integrity than anyone I know of. He is the real deal. It doesn't hurt that his blood line includes a father and grandfather that were both 4 star generals. As I say...I like them both but to lead me and the US...McCain....

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

how much integrity does a guy who actually was a POW have when he turns around and votes against the CIA Torture Ban? not to mention his involvement in the keating 5 scandal which left approx. 21,000 elderly people pennyless.

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Posted By: leon

How much integrity does someone have by staying anonymous on the board? I know your name and if you continue in these types of threads I will put your name (FW) on every one of your posts.....I don't understand the anonymity thing.....Last time you said I used the rules selectively then when I asked you to show proof you clammed up...not anymore....You either put your name out here and debate or you need to stay in factual card threads. Email me if you don't understand......thanks

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ali...you're right -- he has no integrity at all. Not a shred. Not even when he was getting tortured in Vietnam for 5 1/2 years and refused to go home early in favor of other men. Oh, by the way, was Obama snorting coke and smoking pot in high school around that time?

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Posted By: barrysloate

When McCain was in Viet Nam Obama was about four years old...and I think your last comment was over-the-top cynical. Is it possible to smoke pot as a teenager and lead the country as an adult?

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Posted By: Jim VB

Leon,

Last night, I told Jeff L. who I thought ali was. Guess I was correct.

Did he ever make good on that deal where the card wasn't delivered? If not, he shouldn't be on the board anyway.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Actually, Obama was 12 when McCain was released. So he was in Junior High School, sorry for the error.

I don't know, Barry; actually, recreational drug use means little to me in our leaders. But my response was to Ali's claim that McCain has "no integrity" -- which, when you consider, is just a laughable thing to say about the guy.

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Posted By: leon

I only found out a day or two ago......I don't know the story you are speaking of.....

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, is that true? It is the same guy?

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Posted By: paulstratton

I don't know who wins this election, but I feel it is a one term, sacrificial lamb type Presidency anyway. The 2012 election should be interesting.

Who will be our modern day Teddy Roosevelt? Is there anyone out there? I have my thoughts...but I don't want to "betray" him just yet.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Paul, that may very well be true. If McCain wins...is it Hilary v. Palin in 2012? Can you imagine?

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Posted By: barrysloate

McCain does have integrity, and he is a war hero, but there's a bigger issue.

I don't think the Republicans should be rewarded by getting four more years in the White House after what we've been through in the last eight. It will take a long time to fix this country, and it's time for someone else to take a shot at it. I have a problem rewarding incompetence.

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Posted By: paulstratton

No way Jeff, I don't even want to think about that one. I can't believe I'm saying this, but looking back on the whole process I think Hill(despite all her faults) is probably the best person for this job. Ok, somebody shoot me now.

You mean ali is not really ali? Do tell.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, McCain after disposing of Romney was hated by the "true conservatives" in the Republican party. They viewed him as too liberal, too bipartisan, etc. He's hardly a Bush-type Republican. He's actually sponsored more legislation with Democrats than he has with Republicans over the years.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

attribute WAY too much--both positively AND negatively--to the presidency..........it's the lackies and tagger-oners that unfortunately influence WAY too much of our country's direction.

And someone's point earlier that McCain picks out the hotties.....I mean.....that's gotta count for something--right?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Tom, true, true.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Did Palin come in first place on the new reality show "America's Hottest V.P.'s?"

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

this will be my only post in this thread, as politics, like religion, is pointless to argue and almost certainly bound to lead to at least some bad will in the end. Still, since off-topic threads seem to be the theme of the week, I'll pony up mine.

McCain integrity. Well, we know a little bit about the senator here in AZ, and his dalliances over the years. And yes, what about the Keating Five. Particularly distasteful down here, as 'ol Charlie and many of the disgraced were prominent Arizonans. John was right there in the mix, and was lucky to duck most of the charges. And then there's his first wife, who he divorced upon his return from Nam. By most (maybe all) accounts, she waited patiently and devotedly for his return, and was dumped by him after she had become disfigured and largely immobilized following a traffic accident, no longer retaining her beauty contest winning looks and youth. Of course, integrity also means you put your country second so long as it means you can become electable--nominate a pretty face who has ZERO experience and likely just as little ability at the helm of anything complex (5 colleges in 6 years, what stick-to-it-ness she showed). So yeah, we down here really view his character as unassailable--right.

The Republican party remains a one-trick pony--fear. You must vote for us because these are troubled times, and we need a leader. Never mind that we will be $600 BILLION dollars into Iraq by election time--a place we never should have gone and, stay with McCain on this, we must remain. Hmm, think that might have something to do with the economy, or maybe the 90% plus other things you sided with Dubya on these past 8 years? Nope, blow the trumpets, if you give a damn about this country you must elect the red white and blue saint who will keep the mongrels at bay--lest we all be reading a Koran in 2-3 years. The sky is falling, Akmed is at our door, and if you don't vote for a real patriot you can kiss your children's future goodbye.

Now what about economic and social issues Senator Mccain? What do you offer that is different than your predecessor? Answer: "Did you not hear what I said about Iraq? Do you want that we should all be prisoners of war? Do you not want me to save you? Do you like my new girlfriend, er, running mate? Ain't she cute?

So if you're looking for substance from the GOP, you'd better have really sharp eyes, 'cause it's gonna be damn hard to see.

EDITED to remove one remark out of friendship.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Yawn. Politics of fear. I guess that big hole in the ground a few miles from my apartment where 3000 Americans died was just a figment of my imagination. No reason to be scared about that. No experience in the VP? Too pretty? Snarky. Nah, she's just a governor. Too bad she's not a junior senator who spent a whole 100 days in the Senate before running for his next office. Now that's the kind of experience I want.

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Posted By: Scott T

Disclosure: I am a fiscal conservative/social libertarian and fall into the “strict constructionist” category concerning the Constitution.

A point to consider...

Had Hillary Clinton chosen Illinois (a state where she actually had some ties) as her “new” state from which to lunch her Senate bid, Barack No Middle Name Obama would still be a “community organizer”, whatever that is.

I hope that sometime in my lifetime, I can vote “for” President and not merely “against”. (For the record, I liked Fred Thompson in the primary.)


Scott

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Posted By: John K

The question today seems to be will Americans vote for The Great(er) Depression or the black guy.