What flaws do you spot on this Ruth?

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Posted By: Matt

Here's a Ruth I submitted to PSA as a crossover with a minimum grade of 4. It didn't make it. I got flamed to death on the PSA board because everyone there said it must have been trimmed. I've looked at it for a long time under bright light and a 10X magnifying glass and I just don't see evidence of trimming. For one thing, it doesn't have sharp corners. Wouldn't it have sharp corners if it was trimmed? Anyway, they are all PSA worshipers on that board so I thought I might get some neutral opinions here. I don't have a photobucket account so I'm posting the URL of the scan. I realize it's only a front view. The only flaw I find on the back is about 2 drops of ink worn off.

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Posted By: fkw

I saw your post on PSA, and I still think it isnt trimmed but its hard to say from a scan.

Like you said and I mentioned too, The object of trimming a card is usually to make the corners sharp again, and thats not the case here.

Did you ever hear back exactly what PSA found with the card? Or did it just not meet your min grade?

In any case its a nice looking R319

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Posted By: Steve

I got flamed to death on the PSA board because everyone there said it must have been trimmed.


That's not true at all. I for one did not 'flame' you and I also said I thought it was not trimmed.

Actually 3 people at best made that claim.


Steve

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Posted By: Steve

Those 2 drops of ink that you think are 'worn' off do they include any paper loss?

If so, then the best the card could get is a PSA 2 and perhaps that is what PSA sees? Or thinks it sees?

And, like I mentioned there, and as did about a dozen others the time has come for that card to see SGC.

Edited to add: Matt I don't think I have ever seen the reverse. Could you scan it?

Edited again: Photobucket accounts are free.

Steve

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Posted By: Matt

Hey thanks, I still don't think it's trimmed either. I don't know if there's something else they are seeing at PSA. Perhaps they just can't view it well enough through the holder to determine one way or another. Maybe in those cases, they reject it by default. PSA wouldn't offer an explanation. I really think they owe an explanation when you pay $65 for their grading opinion. Joe Orlando said I could mail it back directly to him and he would have it re-examined. However, it's already been out of my posession for nearly a month. I want it back to enjoy for a while. I get really nervous when the card is in the mail. They tried to deliver it today but I was in the shower so they left one of the paper slips to pick it up at the post office on Monday. I'll reexamine it thoroughly again. If I go to the National in Chicago or another show where PSA is doing on the spot grading, I might try again and see if I can get an explanation. I believe that despite what the PSA worshipers think, GAI is not completely incompetent in grading. They may have had a PR nightmare with their recent relocation, but I don't think that affects the grades Mike Baker is putting on the cards. If someone trimmed it, I can't imagine what kind of flaw they were trying to remove since they didn't sharpen the corners. It also measures spot on with the Sports Collectors Digest Catalog dimensions.

By the way, they kicked me off of the PSA forums. I paid for a yearly subscription that supposedly entitled me to the use of the forum and I was also in the middle of working out a trade with someone. Now I have no way to complete the trade as we were still in the negotiating stages. I have 2 Cal Ripken rookies and I was going to trade one of them to the user SFMays. He's working on putting together a 1982 Topps set with his 2 young boys. The Ripken rookie is the only card they need. I wanted to work out a trade with him not so much because I need the items he has to offer for trade, but because I genuinely wanted to help a man who is enjoying a hobby with his 2 sons. If you can contact SFMays (I'm pretty sure that's his complete user name) can you tell him the guy with the Ripken for trade can be reached at mattranson@verizon.net and let him know that I may be interested in the vintage Bowman football that he has to trade. Thanks if you can help me out.

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Posted By: Steve

Sure will do.


Steve

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Posted By: JimB

That is a gorgeous card! I do not think it is trimmed. Unless there is some damage on the back or something imperceptible in the scan (like minor wrinkles), my guess is that its major flaw is that it is in a GAI holder. PSA does not like to grade GAI cards. It does not make sense to me, but... I think if you cracked it out of that holder you would have a legitimate shot at a PSA5, assuming there are no problems that can't be seen in the scan/
JimB

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Posted By: Matt

Steve, you were one of the good guys to me on that board and I appreciate it. I specifically looked for paper loss, but could find one. The only place that the ink is missing is the line on the back that reads "This is one of a series..." The "n" in "one" is missing a little ink and it makes it look like an "r" instead of an "n". If PSA grades it down for that, I have no problems whatsoever. It's their standards and they set them. However, I have a PSA 4 Hack Wilson from the same set that's missing a decent sized piece of paper on the reverse. The front of the Hack Wilson is also nowhere close to the Ruth. If the Wilson is a 4, then the Ruth should at least be a 4.5, just as GAI graded it. As for SGC, I've thought of giving them a shot but I'm going to wait a while before doing anything. I've been a lonely man without my Babe, LOL. I'm picking it up at the post office on Monday so I can scan the back then.

I really don't know where things went wrong on the PSA board. I did get pi$$ed off when Allen posted on one of my threads that I was an idiot and I called him out on it. Things went bad after that. It felt like there were about 7 or 8 people that just decided it was open season on me. Now, despite the fact that I paid my $100 yearly membership to PSA and have spent another $300 on submissions, they won't let me use their message board which is a part of what I paid for. If you read everything that your PSA membership entitles you to, the message board is one of them. I was in the middle of working out a trade with another member too. Now I can't contact them to complete the deal.I wrote to their customer service asking for a refund of my annual dues. If they don't refund it, I paid with my Capital One credit card and I'm going to dispute the charge due to services not rendered.

I hope I can discuss cards on this forum in a friendlier environment.

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Posted By: Matt

Jim B, A lot of people have told me the same thing about crossing GAI cards to PSA due to them being "rivals". However, I don't understand their reasoning. Shouldn't PSA feel honored that I want my card in their holder instead of their competitor's?

Businesses can be funny. I worked for JC Penney a long time ago and they refused to accept Discover credit cards simply because Discover was owned by their competitor Sears. The only thing that accomplished was that we would sometimes lose sales as the only credit card some of our customer's had was a Discover card. I used to get mad over that policy because I worked on commission so making the sale was a big deal to me.

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Posted By: Red

Your card obviously has a problem somewhere because GAI only graded it a 4.5. Your poor quality picture makes it look better than a 4.5 but it's hiding whatever is wrong with the card. GAI saw something and only graded it a 4.5. PSA saw the same thing and didn't want to cross the card over. SGC will see see the same thing and will grade it according to their standards. Both PSA and SGC would love to put the card in their holder for you if they can.

We might be able to tell you what the problem is if you put a good quality scan up. My guess is the problem will be found along the right edge. Your picture hints at some breaks in the paper along the right edge to the right of his head and hands. They could be the start of creases running through the card or they could be breaks in the paper at the edge that go through from front to back. This will kill the grade of an otherwise great looking card. Is that the picture the person used to sell you the card?

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Posted By: mike rothstein

Hi Matt

I'm sorry to hear you got booted from CU. I didn't think anything you said warranted being removed.

I have never been critical of the card since as was recommended - a better scan - front and back - would be needed to review the card.

I agree with Steve - the card should be reviewed by Mr Orlando and consider giving it to SGC for authentication/grading if you are not happy with the opinion rendered by PSA.

I wish you the best - I know that this card has been a major concern of yours - and I hope it's resolved totally in your favor.

mike

edit: Steve had trouble getting thru to sfmays24 - I pm'ed him your request above.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"PSA does not like to grade GAI cards."

This has been my experience as well. Crack it out and send it in and you'll have a much better shot.

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Posted By: Matt

Yes, that is the scan that the dealer sent me. When I get it back on Monday, I will try to post some different scans. It's a beautiful card in my eyes. If it has a defect like you described, I don't think it takes away from the eye appeal. My biggest concern was that it had been tampered with rendering it worthless. The only reason I care about what grade it receives is in case I am ever in financial hardship and need to sell it. If it weren't for that reason I would just have PSA apply whatever grade they feel it deserves. Like I said, I'm scared at the thought that I got burned with a card that was altered.

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Posted By: Matt

Mike, thanks for getting in touch with SFMays for me. I really want to help him and his boys complete their 1982 Topps set. That's probably exciting for the youngsters.

I remember the first time I completed a hand collated set. It was a 1983 Topps set. I still have memories of of thinking the lady that owned the local card shop was nuts for charging me 75 cents for a rookie card of some guy named Wade Boggs that I had never heard of, LOL! That 1983 set brings back memories of good times. It also has Willie McGee's rookie card. I loved to watch Willie McGee play the outfield. He sure did cover a lot of ground in his younger days. My dad used to take me to Reds games as that was the closest Major League team to us. We always went to see the Cardinals. I took my McGee rookie card to one of the games with me and got Willie to sign it. I still have that card in a display on my wall. Going to those Reds games was the best bonding experience my father and I ever had while I was a child. I'm 35 years old now and to this day, my father and I still make at least one trip to Cincinnati every summer. That's what baseball is all about!

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Posted By: Red

You bought the card in the GAI holder so why not just sell the card in the GAI holder. It wouldn't make sense to cross it over to PSA or SGC if they're going to bump it down a few grades. You bought the card for the eye appeal and hoped for an uppgrade. The next person to buy the card will think the same thing. You've paid PSA twice for crossover grading and now might try SGC. The grading companies must love cards like this. You wonder how many times each one has been paid to grade this card.

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Posted By: Matt

Red, your comments do make perfect sense. I'm not considering selling it any time soon. I probably would only sell it if I absolutely had to to pay my bills. The main reason I wanted to cross it over to PSA is that I have a fancy display case on my wall that holds 18 of my favorite cards. 17 of those cards are in PSA slabs and I thought it would look better to have them all match. I know that probably seems like a silly reason to cross it over.

Everyone on the PSA board insists that GAI is a third rate company and their graded cards are all junk and worth a heck of a lot less than PSA graded cards. Of course that is on the PSA board so there's some bias. I stopped collecting cards for a while in the 1990s and when I started collecting again around 2004, grading was foreign to me. I really don't have a good feel for how much each grading company's cards sell for in the same grades. How much less would it be worth in the GAI holder graded at 4.5 as opposed to a PSA holder graded 4 or 4.5?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Matt, GAI definitely sells at a discount, though it's hard to quanitfy it. Half grade, full grade? Certainly no more than that. If you can't get the card into a PSA 4 or SGC 50, leave it in the GAI holder -- but if you just bought the card you wouldn't be crazy to assume that the previous owner already tried to cross it.

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Posted By: Matt

I took it to the National in Cleveland last year and took it to several dealers asking if they wanted to buy it and for how much. I had no intention of actually making a deal unless someone offered me a lot more than I paid for it. Levi's 707 Sports Cards offered the highest. They offered $2,200. I paid $3,300 for it. If Levi would have bought it at $2,200 I'm guessing he thought he could get at least a $500 mark up. I know I probably over paid for the card but I seriously wanted it.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I agree with those who note that PSA hates to grade GAI cards. If you're convinced that it is not trimmed, crack it out and send it to PSA raw, or maybe send it to PSA with no crossover minimum.

IMO, enough people are skeptical of GAI that you might get more for it in a PSA 3 holder than its GAI 4.5 holder. The potential for trim, right, or wrong, is perceived to be higher when GAI is the grader. In fact, again whether right or wrong, some buyers will wonder why it wasn't crossed and conclude or at least suspect that there is an alteration.

If it got a 3, it would still present exceptionally well for that grade, and could draw strong interest. Since you state you have no present of selling it anyway, why not just take your chances with PSA on a resubmit?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Todd's right: some good GAI-graded cards can sometimes be had at a big discount; it's just luck of the draw I suppose but not the greatest of risks to pay PSA 3 money for a GAI 4 card in my opinion. As for cracking it out, will PSA tell you why the card didn't reach the minimum grade requested? If they tell you that the card is not trimmed, what's to lose in cracking it out?

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Posted By: Bilko G

Hey Matt, I agree with cracking it out and resubmitting it raw, if you must have it in that PSA holder. As long as you are sure it is not altered in anyway, you have nothing to lose. Personally, I think it looks just fine in the GAI holder, but i can see why you want it in the PSA holder to match the rest of your collections/display. If you are gonna crack and resubmit, I would suggest waiting a few months to do so, as this is a card that would be remembered fairly easily by the PSA graders.

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Posted By: Anonymous

There's one big factor with cracking it out and that's the risk of actually cracking it out. There's just no way to do it gently. I'm afraid of damaging it. I cracked a GAI slab on a cheaper card once to see how hard it would be. I got the card out without damaging it but it wasn't easy.

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Posted By: quan

if there's nothing wrong with the back...crack, submit to psa...take the family out to a steak dinner when it comes back a 5.

oh yea...if u plan on keeping the card for now why do you want it crossed so much?

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Posted By: Anthony N.

Cut the corners with tin snips or a dremmel and then pry the holder apart. If done carefully it's not risky.
I've had a few cards in GAI holders that PSA has rejected, and all graded when sent in raw. You can chose to believe either A. they are trying to make the point that Global is a bad company that doesn't know what they are doing (although with the same graders that graded millions of PSA cards, what does this say?) or B. The Global holder makes it tough to properly see the edges.

But if you don't have plans to sell it in the near future why bother with any of this? Right now it's protected in a nice holder, and presents well. The black matte sets off the green card better than PSA's holder will, and if and when you do decide to sell it who knows if any of these grading companies will be around.

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Posted By: Scott Mt Joy

My last experience with a GAI to PSA crossover was (1965 OPC Clemente Gai 8), sent in as a crossover min grade 7, came back as trimmed. I then cracked and resubmitted and came back a PSA 8. From now on I will crack and resubmit all gai cards, crossovers are a big waste of money to PSA.

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Posted By: Steve

My only experience with GAI to PSA was cracking a GAI 1955 Spahn graded 7.5 (1st graded) and it came back
evid trim. PSA had no idea it was ever in a GAI slab.

Matt you are getting the same advice here that you got at CU.


Steve

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Scott, I've had the same experience. A GAI card sent in did not reach the required minimum grade; upon cracking, it was sent in raw and received a grade higher than the previously requested minimum. PSA is wonderful.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Matt- With all due respect, you know very little with regard to grading and how to detect trimming. Like Steve, I also never said that the Ruth was definitely trimmed (like Steve said, only 3 people did, not "everyone" like you claim), but there is an inconsistency along the bottom right border that is unmistakeable. You're confusing the opinions of the three people that told you the card is definitely trimmed with everybody else's. Everybody else was telling you that PSA generally doesn't cross over GAI cards in the slab, so either crack it or send it to SGC.

You pretty much blew your credibility when you claimed that this Gwynn RC is perfect in every way, and you can't see any flaws and were flabergasted when it didn't come back a perfect 10. Even after people pointed out that it is off center, has four touched corners and chipping along both side edges, you still claim to not see these flaws.




Your eyes and experience in grading aren't exactly to be trusted, so I'll say again, maybe you should take in the advice of others instead of being stubborn and refusing any opinions that may differ from your own.

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Posted By: Mike Navarro

Instead of the continued hypothesizing and speculation, just submit your card to Kevin Saucier, you can find him on these boards, and determine once and for all if your card has been doctored in any sort of fashion.

Will the Ruth have to leave your possession to get to him? Yes it will. Will you have to trust someone else? Yes you will. Will it be worth it to know for sure? That's a question you will have to answer. At least you will have peace of mind one way or the other.

I was just a watcher over on Collectors Universe on your thread, but I think a lot of us over there have a curiousity as to the final outcome for the card, and from your posts, it seems you do as well. Just submit it to Kevin and end all the speculation, and it will be your chance to prove your naysayers wrong.

Take care and good luck,

Mike Navarro

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Posted By: Anonymous

Crack the ruth out of the GAI holder and put the card in a 1/2 inch holder and enjoy it for awhile. Let a year go buy and need be send it to PSA and low and behold they grade it. Be patient that is the key to success. Grading is just guess work.

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Posted By: steve

Just call GAI to politly ask why the 4.5 grade.

A while back, I personally spoke to M.Baker and another somebody at GAI regarding S74 silks. They did talk a few moments on grading.

Just call them. Then you will know why it is the grade it is.

steve

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Posted By: Anonymous

CDsNuts, I did some more checking on the Gwynn. I measured both borders left to right and top to bottom. There was indeed a very slight difference. It doesn't directly stand out to my eyes though. The point I was trying to make with my Gwynn card was that if there were any flaws on it, they are nowhere near the point of detracting from the eye appeal of the card. My thread about the insanity of graded cards referred to people who are willing to spend $2225 for a 1983 Topps Tony Gwynn just because it is labelled as a perfect 10 and doesn't have the "huge" defects that my 8.5 Gwynn has. I'm just not that anal retentive enough to be bothered by a card that's half a millimeter off centered. Maybe that's because I mostly collect vintage. With vintage, you're lucky to get a card without a crease running the entire length of the card. Give me $2225 to spend on cards and I'm going to buy Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, or another vintage classic. I guess all of the PSA people really feel that getting that perfect 10 is worth the money. I am positive this gem mint graded craze will fade away and there will be a lot of people wondering why they blew $1000 on a 1984 Don Mattingly.

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Posted By: Anonymous

By the way, I know a lot more about cards and how the card market goes through phases than people on the PSA board gave me credit for. Mark my words, while grading will stick around, the high premiums paid for gem mints will die down once people realize just how opinionated grading is. A PSA 8 could be a PSA 10 on a different day and vice versa.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I don't think anyone argued with you on that point. But it happens in vintage too when you see what low pop PSA 8s, 9s, and 10s sell for. $30,000 for a PSA 9 '52 Topps card is just as ridiculous as $2,000 for a PSA 10 1983 card. Any idiot could see that the market for rare hi-grade modern cards can't keep up over time. You're not the first (or millionth) person to point that out.

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Posted By: Josh

I cracked out 4 cards from Global holders and wanted to cross them over to PSA. I received 2 grades lower on two of the cards and the other two came back trimmed.

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Posted By: Steve

I measured both borders left to right and top to bottom. There was indeed a very slight difference.


Matt you are kidding right? The Top/Bottom centering on that card is 75/25 at best! I can see that w/o
measuring.

Steve

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Posted By: Jim

heck, all of us have been banned from the PSA boards for speaking our mind.

Welcome to the club. Please remember to sign up for the snack rotation.

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Posted By: Jay Adair

Speaking your mind is one thing. Swearing (the F bomb) and loosely worded threats (i.e Internet tough guy routine) are totally another.

He got what he deserved, banned.


As for the Ruth. Looks fine to me. I see the bottom right corner that most are talking about. I see the red "ribbon" extends further on the right than on the left of the card. Which may give it a slight appearance of "uneven-ness".

I would follow the advice of some and crack it out and resub. Cracking a graded case isn't hard. It can be done with little effort and no damage to the card.

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Posted By: Robert Herd

Matt, with all due respect, did you really expect a different outcome when you posted a rant about people paying premiums for high grade PSA cards on a PSA run message board? I feel that you are smarter than that.

Good luck with the Ruth and I look forward to your posts on this board.


Robert

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Posted By: Anonymous

I got it back today. Here's another view of the front as well as the reverse. I did spot one tiny flaw on the reverse that I hadn't spotted before. I'll see if anyone else points it out before I do. Honestly, I can't get the back to scan any better than this. You will have to take my word for it that the writing is not blurry.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Robert Herd, I know you're right. Like I said in one of my posts, I was wearing a Red Sox jersey in Yankee Stadium.

As for the card, those corners are too soft to have been trimmed. You would have to be an idiot to trim it and leave the corners like that!

Steve, I may be blind on the Gwynn but the top and bottom borders measured less than a millimeter difference. If the difference drops down to a mm or less, it doesn't make a difference to me. It looks just as good as one that was perfectly centered. My idea of off- centered is when there is no border or very little border on one side or top/bottom.

I'm just glad the card is back in my hands. Man I get nervous when it's out of my possession. Happy collecting everyone!

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Posted By: Anonymous

How can someone have a scanner that produces an image like that in this day and age?

Nick

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Posted By: Anonymous

The scanner is an Epson 3590. It did fine with the front but it doesn't seem to want to pick up the back very well.

For Stan the Man who followed me over here, Can you answer one question? Sinnce you are convinced that this card is trimmed, why does it have 4 soft corners? You've never addressed that?

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Posted By: Red

Scan at a higher DPI and don't reduce the quality of the image so much when saving. Crop out the holder and just show the card to reduce the image's file size. Maybe push down on the center of the card while scanning to get card closer to scanner deck. I don't see the breaks at the edges that the other picture hinted at. I'd be worried about the "is one" area on the back. Almost looks reinked. But it might only look that way because of a bad scan. What an advantage the real graders have of actually getting to look at the real card.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I've mentioned the "n" in the "One" before. I don't think it's been recolored. If anything it's missing paper. Of course with a crappy scan it's not going to show. My photo hosting site only goes up to 100K so I'm pretty limited with the resolution. I've played around with it and can't seem to get it to look good without ending up with a 2 meg file.

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Posted By: Steve

If anything it's missing paper.



Now we know why they won't cross it to a 5 or 4.


Cards with pper loss can grade no better then 2 if my memory is correct.


Perhaps that is the problem?


Steve

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Posted By: Red

All the area showing the holder is taking up file space. Scan at a higher resolution and crop out all the plastic. If the file is too big then crop the card in two and post two scans. Then scan the trouble spot on the back at your highest resolution and crop out everything except for that spot. The text kind of looks twisted so maybe the paper is loose in that area.

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Posted By: Jay Adair

You got beat for $3k. I would just put it in your showcase and be done with it. Enjoy it for what it is...an authentic 33 Goudy Ruth.

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Posted By: Matt Ranson

Steve, even with a 10X magnifying glass I still can't tell for certain whether there is paper missing or if it is just ink. I would have to crack it out to tell. Maybe that was the problem PSA had.

Also, you do not need to take all of my posts over to the other board so that everyone can continue ridiculing me. If anyone on that board wants to do that, they can come over here and go off on me.

And can you tell the user Karb that it has been illegal to buy a "bro" ever since the end of the Civil War. I think he meant "bra". I normally don't point out typos, but the "o" and "a" are on opposite ends of the keyboard so I'm certain he/she really spells it that way.

See his post on this page to see what I'm babbling about:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=652156&STARTPAGE=11

Wow. He could have avoided surgery by buying himself a bro. LOL sorry

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Posted By: Randy Trierweiler

Does anybody else think that these CU post/links make us look like a very dignified mature message board?

US!!