T206 checklist by Frank Nagy -- 19 backs??

[trdcrdkid]

OK, one more post about the 1976 and 1978 Sport Americana Baseball Card Checklist books that I dug out tonight. Both of them have a printed checklist of T206 compiled by Frank Nagy, with the cards listed alphabetically by leagues -- first the major leagues, then the various minor leagues. What's interesting to me is that at the beginning he lists 19 brands of cigarettes that T206 supposedly came with. There are the 16 we all know, including Ty Cobb, plus Red Cross and Coupon, which shows that he was considering T215-1 and T213-1 to be versions of T206 (as I know has been hotly disputed on this board). But he also has Hustler, which as far as I know was never issued with any baseball card set, just the T59 Flags of All Nations set (which is an interesting set for back collectors in its own right). Anybody have any idea what Nagy may have been thinking of?

Anyway, here's the checklist, scanned from the 1978 Sport Americana guide, with a typewritten T207 checklist on the last page:

[Joshchisox08]

I'm by no means an expert and can't really contribute fully to what your seeking opinions on.

I am however as stated before, working on my own checklist so that it can be done on the computer in Microsoft Excel environment. It will have a list that you can select and check off your cards. It will also have every single players statistics that you can filter through. As well as a back check off page, a graded total page, card pose check off page, etc.

[ullmandds]

i don't think there's a whole lot to know? i think back then it was rumored that a t206 with a hustler back existed. I have another softcover book on baseball cards from that era depicting a hustler back with the rest speculating it may have existed.

the hustler flags cards are a totally different size than t206 so I can't imagine a t206 was rebacked with one either.

just a rumor back in the day before the internet and our increased knowledge base.

[ullmandds]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=123604&page=2

[trdcrdkid]

Thanks, Pete! That 2010 thread pretty much tells the story. I should have thought to do a search, but I also thought Nagy's back list was worth posting in its own right. I assume he probably got the idea of a Hustler T206 from the ACC, but if so, it's interesting that that he considered T213-1 and T215-1 to be T206s, given that Burdick apparently did not. Tonight I'll have to dig out my copy of the ACC, which is the 1980s reprint of the 1960 edition.

[toppcat]

Backs aside, where did those distribution dates for T206 come from?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Backs aside, where did those distribution dates for T206 come from?

I was wondering the same thing. Those dates can't be correct.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by Sean

I was wondering the same thing. Those dates can't be correct.

Yeah, I was kind of wondering the same thing when I posted it. I didn't think the 460 series was issued as early as late 1909. I know people have studied this using newspaper ads for the set and similar things. I'll have to check my books tonight when I get home.

[trdcrdkid]

OK, I've done a little research, and I think I see where Nagy's dates come from. According to Scott A. Reader's "Inside T206", February 17, 1909 (the date given by Nagy for the launch of the 150 Series) is when Wid Conroy was purchased by the Washington Senators from the New York Highlanders, so the 150/350 Series T206 of him with Washington must have been designed after that date. However, that doesn't mean the series was issued ON that date, and anyway the evidence (much of it described by Reader) indicates that this series was not actually distributed until the early summer of 1909.

Reader also notes that Neal Ball was purchased by Cleveland from New York on May 18, 1909 (Nagy's second date), so the 150/350 Series card of Ball with New York must have been designed before that date. But this doesn't say anything about when that series was launched.

I'm not sure where Nagy's April 1910 date for the end of the 350 Series comes from, but Reader argues that the 350 and 350/460 Series cards were launched in the first few months of 1910, based on artwork that had started to be created in August 1909 (based on the movement of players from team to team). Some backs came later; there is documentary evidence that the American Beauty 350 and Cycle 350 backs were launched in July 1910.

I'm not sure where Nagy's December 16, 1909 date for the launch of the 350/460 Series came from, but my best guess is the fact, noted by Reader, that Kid Elberfield was purchased by Washington from New York on December 14, 1909, and his 350 Series card depicts him with Washington. But that just means that the Elberfield card was designed/printed after that date, and is consistent with the above argument that the 350 and 350/460 Series were launched in early 1910.

Reader argues that the 460-only Series was launched in the fall of 1910 and that distribution ceased in the spring of 1911, ahead of the launch of T205. Packaging of Tolstoi T206s stopped on March 14, 1911, and distribution of Uzit T206s began four days later on March 18; however, it must have stopped after only a few weeks, which is why Uzits are so rare.

[Jantz]

Only 4 Doyles listed

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Only 4 Doyles listed

And yet he still lists 524 cards, without Joe Doyle, NY Nat'l.

He lists the Sweeney and the Sweeney "no B" as separate cards. I didn't realize that this print error was recognized as a separate card.

Cards #349 + 350

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

OK, I've done a little research, and I think I see where Nagy's dates come from. According to Scott A. Reader's "Inside T206", February 17, 1909 (the date given by Nagy for the launch of the 150 Series) is when Wid Conroy was purchased by the Washington Senators from the New York Highlanders, so the 150/350 Series T206 of him with Washington must have been designed after that date. However, that doesn't mean the series was issued ON that date, and anyway the evidence (much of it described by Reader) indicates that this series was not actually distributed until the early summer of 1909.

Reader also notes that Neal Ball was purchased by Cleveland from New York on May 18, 1909 (Nagy's second date), so the 150/350 Series card of Ball with New York must have been designed before that date. But this doesn't say anything about when that series was launched.

I'm not sure where Nagy's April 1910 date for the end of the 350 Series comes from, but Reader argues that the 350 and 350/460 Series cards were launched in the first few months of 1910, based on artwork that had started to be created in August 1909 (based on the movement of players from team to team). Some backs came later; there is documentary evidence that the American Beauty 350 and Cycle 350 backs were launched in July 1910.

I'm not sure where Nagy's December 16, 1909 date for the launch of the 350/460 Series came from, but my best guess is the fact, noted by Reader, that Kid Elberfield was purchased by Washington from New York on December 14, 1909, and his 350 Series card depicts him with Washington. But that just means that the Elberfield card was designed/printed after that date, and is consistent with the above argument that the 350 and 350/460 Series were launched in early 1910.

Reader argues that the 460-only Series was launched in the fall of 1910 and that distribution ceased in the spring of 1911, ahead of the launch of T205. Packaging of Tolstoi T206s stopped on March 14, 1911, and distribution of Uzit T206s began four days later on March 18; however, it must have stopped after only a few weeks, which is why Uzits are so rare.

I'm reviving this thread from almost a year ago because I've solved the mystery of where Frank Nagy got his dates for the distribution of the three series of T206. (See the first post in this thread.) They were from an article by Walter E. Corson in the July-August 1962 issue of The Sport Hobbyist, "Issue Dates of T206 Cards", which I've posted below. Nagy's checklist then was printed (for the first time that I know of) in the March-April 1963 Sport Hobbyist, exactly as it appears in the first post in this thread.

[Enfuego]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

I'm by no means an expert and can't really contribute fully to what your seeking opinions on.

I am however as stated before, working on my own checklist so that it can be done on the computer in Microsoft Excel environment. It will have a list that you can select and check off your cards. It will also have every single players statistics that you can filter through. As well as a back check off page, a graded total page, card pose check off page, etc.

Are you updating your current spreadsheet? If so, i would like a copy of it please

[frohme]

Thanks, David!

Always good to see the state of things from earlier times. Though it was clearly unintentional, thought it was funny that he left one card out of the T207 checklist. He only typed in 199 of the 200 ... Vaughn is missing and now feels somewhat slighted.

--
Mike

[Joshchisox08]

If anyone has updated information such as the correct year they were released let me know but this is what I have.


Brand, Subjects, Factory, "Year Released"
Ty Cobb, Assorted, Factory 33, 4th Dist. NC
Old Mill (Southern League), Overprint(s) Assorted Factory 649, 1st Dist. NY
Old Mill (Southern League), Brown Factory 649, 1st Dist. NY
Lenox (brown), Assorted Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY 1911
Broad Leaf 460, Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1910-1911
Drum 350, Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1909-1911
Uzit, Assorted Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY 1911
Hindu (red), Assorted, Factory 649, 1st Dist. NY
Lenox (black), Assorted, Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY 1911
Red Cross Type 1 ** T215 T215 1910-1912
Broad Leaf 350 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1909-1911
Blank Back N/A Printers Scrap
Coupon Type 1 T213-1 T213-1 1910-1919
Carolina Brights Assorted Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42, 4th Dist. NC 1911
American Beauty 460 Factory 42, 4th Dist. NC 1911
Hindu (brown) Assorted Factory 649, 1st Dist. NY
American Beauty (No Frame) 350 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1909-1911
Sovereign 460 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1910-1911
Cycle 460 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1910-1911
Tolstoi Assorted Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1910-1911
El Principe De Gales Assorted Factory 17, 2nd Dist. VA
American Beauty (Frame) 350 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1909-1911
Sovereign 350 (Apple Green) Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1909-1911
Cycle 350 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1909-1911
Old Mill (Southern Leagues) (black) Assorted Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
Sovereign 150 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1909-1911
Sweet Caporal (overprint) 150 Factory 649, 1st Dist. NY 1909-1911
Sweet Caporal (overprint) 350-460 Factory 42, 4th Dist. NC 1910-1911
Old Mill Assorted Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1909-1911
Polar Bear Assorted Factory 6, 1st Dist. OH 1909-1911
Sovereign 350 (Forrest Green) Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1909-1911
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1909-1911
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY 1910-1911
Sweet Caporal 150, Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY 1909-1911
Piedmont 150 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1909-1911
Piedmont 350-460, Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1910-1911
Sweet Caporal, 350 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1909-1911
Sweet Caporal, 350 Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY 1909-1911
Piedmont 350, Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA 1909-1911

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

If anyone has updated information such as the correct year they were released let me know but this is what I have.



Coupon Type 1 T213-1 T213-1 1910-1919

The Coupon Type-1 set was printed in 1910 I believe. Type-2 was printed in 1914 and Type-3 in 1919.