One T206, Two Names

[marcdelpercio]

Thanks, Erick...I totally agree. Good listing, good seller, albeit kind of an odd ending time on a Saturday afternoon. Being a dual HOF'er and, to my knowledge, a previously unknown combo, I thought that this one would go for quite a bit more.

[T206.org]

Awesome card, Marc!

[Jantz]

Marc

Nice card!

Thank you for posting this information.

That's 2 new examples of two different name T206s found in the last few weeks.

Just goes to show that there are still some treasures out there to be found.

I'm surprised that a thread hasn't been started yet about the T206 scrap that sold on Ebay in a BIN for $16.50 recently.

It was a beauty too.


Jantz

[atx840]

Jantz, Did you figure out who was on the front

[T206.org]

Originally Posted by Jantz

I'm surprised that a thread hasn't been started yet about the T206 scrap that sold on Ebay in a BIN for $16.50 recently.

It was a beauty too.

No way! Nice. Do you have a link for the item, Jantz?

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by atx840

Jantz, Did you figure out who was on the front

Good one Chris

I'll admit, I don't have the eye like Er!ck does when it comes to figuring out these ghosts.

So I'll stick to my strengths, finding the two namers. Although that eye hasn't been working lately either.

Since I've had a few board members ask about the scrap, I'll start a new thread with some scans.


Jantz

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Jantz

I'm surprised that a thread hasn't been started yet about the T206 scrap that sold on Ebay in a BIN for $16.50 recently.

It was a beauty too.


Jantz

This?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-22...p2047675.l2557

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

This?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-22...p2047675.l2557

Yes, that's it Andy.

I started a new thread about it for others to see.


Jantz

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Marc

Nice card!

Thank you for posting this information.

That's 2 new examples of two different name T206s found in the last few weeks.

Jantz

Well, make that three... Chance (Yellow) - Fiene

Piedmont 350 back, so I don't know which Fiene pose that would be; interesting that like the previous "find" this one also has two players from the cross-town Chicago teams

[Luke]

Erick helped me look at this one (thanks Erick!). We're pretty sure it's Schlei up top. Definitely N.Y. NAT'L

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

Erick helped me look at this one (thanks Erick!). We're pretty sure it's Schlei up top. Definitely N.Y. NAT'L

Nice cards Er!ck & Luke!

Luke - Can I get a back scan of this card or could you post the back information down to the factory number.

Thanks


Jantz

[Luke]

Wagner back:

[Jantz]

Thank you Luke.

That solves that mystery. A Sweet Caporal 350 f#30 back makes it Schlei (catching) as the top card's pose.

This Wagner makes 50 T206s (by my records) now with different names on the top.


Jantz

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Thank you Luke.

That solves that mystery. A Sweet Caporal 350 f#30 back makes it Schlei (catching) as the top card's pose.

This Wagner makes 50 T206s (by my records) now with different names on the top.


Jantz

Jantz, could you post this list when you get a chance? It would be nice to see it all together again. Thanks!

[atx840]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Jantz, could you post this list when you get a chance? It would be nice to see it all together again. Thanks!

+1 I really need to update the grid.

[tedzan]

Here are an assortment of ONE T206--TWO NAMES cards in my collection. Most are same names cards. But, there are a couple of them that may have different names.

Anyhow, I thought you would be interested in this info since most of them appear to be new examples for your records.



...... P150 .............................................. P350 .......................................... SC 460 .......................................... P350



...... P350 .................................................. .............. P350 .................................................. .............. P350




PIEDMONT 150





SOVEREIGN 150 (1st two cards) and SOVEREIGN 350





AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and SWEET CAPORAL 460 cards









Furthermore, these 12 cards are sufficiently offset so that a name should have appeared on their top border. Yet, there isn't even a hint of this.
Therefore, I think it's fair to conclude that these cards were printed on the top row of their respective sheets (backs are a mixture of PIEDMONT,
SOVEREIGN, and SWEET CAP).





TED Z
.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here are an assortment of ONE T206--TWO NAMES cards in my collection. Most are same names cards. But, there are a couple of them that may have different names.

Anyhow, I thought you would be interested in this info since most of them appear to be new examples for your records.

Thanks Ted... nice cards. I don't see any two-namers, however. They all appear to be double-namers (same name). Which ones are two-namers?

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Thank you Luke.

That solves that mystery. A Sweet Caporal 350 f#30 back makes it Schlei (catching) as the top card's pose.

This Wagner makes 50 T206s (by my records) now with different names on the top.


Jantz

I was able to trade with Luke for this card... cracked it out and confirmed Wagner-Schlei:

[tedzan]

I find it very interesting, that all of the DIFFERENT-2-NAMES cards that have been reported here are limited to ONLY from
the 150/350 series, or the 350-only series.

Furthermore, the TWO-NAME T206's that have been reported here from the 350/460 series and the 460-only series are
all SAME-NAME cards. Here's an additional 350/460 series SAME-NAME card to add to this list.


OLD MILL





My question is: why haven't we seen any DIFFERENT-2-NAMES cards from the 350/460 series, or the 460-only series ?


TED Z
.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by tedzan

My question is: why haven't we seen any DIFFERENT-2-NAMES cards from the 350/460 series, or the 460-only series ?

TED Z
.

Great question, Ted. It's not from a lack of looking, because I certainly hunt. Perhaps the sheets in the 460 runs had the same player/pose in each column thereby making it impossible for a two-namer. Or perhaps we just haven't found one yet. If I were to lean in one direction, at this point I might just go with the "not possible" (same card vertically). I will keep looking, however!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Great question, Ted. It's not from a lack of looking, because I certainly hunt. Perhaps the sheets in the 460 runs had the same player/pose in each column thereby making it impossible for a two-namer. Or perhaps we just haven't found one yet. If I were to lean in one direction, at this point I might just go with the "not possible" (same card vertically). I will keep looking, however!

A total of only 21 cards from the 350/460 series and the 460-only series in this entire thread is an insufficient sample. So, we will keep searching.

However, I consider your "columns" point also possible, as it is consistent with my hypothetical sheet of the Exclusive 12 cards illustrated here.....






TED Z
.

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by tedzan

My question is: why haven't we seen any DIFFERENT-2-NAMES cards from the 350/460 series, or the 460-only series ?


TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

Good question.

Might be because of the limited player selection in the 350/460 series and 460-only series that no two different name T206s have been found. Same player-same column.

As you and others have mentioned, possibly smaller sheets and only a few players per sheet.

Selection of players limited in late 1910 to 1911 because they were wrapping up the print run for the new card set that they were replacing the T206s with.

All speculation of course, but it sure makes for a good mystery to solve.

As Er!ck has posted, I'm also looking for that first 350/460 or 460 two different name T206 to appear, but nothing yet.

Nice selection of two same namers with different backs.

Here is another mis-cut with a back not seen often. (not my card)


Jantz

[Jantz]

Here is the list. Slight typo on earlier post - 52 total

American Beauty 350 framed

Hinchman, H. - Taylor

Cycle 350

Beck - Unglaub

Piedmont 150

Bender (port.) - Delehanty (Wash.)
Brown, M (port.) - Magee (port.)
Bradley (port.) - Bender (port.)
Killian (pitching) - Chance (red port.)
Lindaman - Bresnahan (port.)
Lundgren (Cubs) - Doolin
Lundgren (Cubs) - Ball (New York)
Powell (horizontal) - O'Leary (port.)
Spade - Cicotte
Hinchman, B. - Stovall (port.)
Manning (batting) - Flick

Piedmont 350

Abbaticchio (brown) - Cicotte
Atz - Hoffman (Providence)
Chase (blue port.) - Zimmerman
Hoblitzell - Stephens
Jennings (port.) - Jordan (port.)
Livingstone - Maloney
McElveen - Dygert
Elberfeld (NY port.) - Parent
Engle - Phillippe
McGraw (no cap port.) - Chesbro
Moran, H. - Arrellanes
Oakes - Easterly
Snodgrass (batting) - Maddox
Rossman - McBride
Turner - Lobert
Egan - Warhop
Herzog (NY) - Ritchey
McGinley - Speaker
Griffith (port.) - Chase (?)
Jackson - Hoffman (St. Louis)
Butler - Raymond
McIntyre (Detroit) - Hoffman (St. Louis)
Walsh - Brown, M (port.)
Chance (yellow port.) - Feine (?)
Delehanty (Wash.) - Waddell (port.)

Sweet Caporal 350-30

Barbeau - Strang
Graham (St. Louis) - Clark (Columbus)
Killian (port.) - Dubuc
McGlynn - Jones (Detroit)
Rossman - Thomas
Wagner, Heinie (left shoulder) - Schlei (catching)

Sweet Caporal 350-25

Lennox - Clancy

Sweet Caporal - factory number unknown

McGraw (front ?) - Hayden
Pickering - Myers (front )
Bowerman - Chance (front ?)

The rest - back information unknown or damaged

Walsh - Lumley Piedmont (back damage - no series number)
Bresnahan (port.) - Doolin
Criger - Ritchey
Keeler (front ?) - McGraw (front ?)


I think I got all this information posted correctly. If anyone spots a discrepancy or can add anything else, please post it up.

Jantz

[t206hound]

This is a really weak example, but it is a two-namer. It is the second instance of Bender-Delehanty. Note that there are several printing attributes that demonstrate on both instances:

[The Nasty Nati]

wow nice sleuthing! I would have never picked up on that Bender.

[Jantz]

You're literally connecting the dots aren't you?

Nice work Er!ck!

[mrvster]

strikes again!

[Luke]

.

[Jantz]

Hey Luke

That "." just isn't enough.

How about giving us the scoop on that beauty!

Either way, thank you for posting it.


Jantz

[Luke]

Hey Jantz, it's not my card unfortunately. I just saw it in the completed sales on ebay. Dean's cards thought they were over-pricing it, but it was actually a nice buy for someone.

[Jantz]

I agree Luke.

Sorry you weren't able to get it.

Again, thank you for posting it due to the fact that this Walsh has a different name on the top and a different back than what we've seen in the past.

Interesting card!


Jantz

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by Jantz

I agree Luke.



Sorry you weren't able to get it.



Again, thank you for posting it due to the fact that this Walsh has a different name on the top and a different back than what we've seen in the past.



Interesting card!





Jantz

Exactly. Goes further to demonstrate that across brands and series the sheet layouts were not maintained (also see Rossman).

[Den*nis O*Brien]

I posted this just in case anyone is interested in PB'S.

[bnorth]

Got my first 2 name T206 card in the mail today.

[Harford20]

I was going through some of the cards that I have never had graded and came across this Polar Bear Addie Joss Pitching. I first noted that there was not a name at the bottom and assumed it was trimmed. I measured it, and the length was a solid 2-5/8" or 67 mm (NL or near NL). Upon close inspection I noted this partial name at the top. Despite looking at my other T206s I cannot come up with a match, although I have mainly a HOFer collection. I kept trying to put Joss' own name up there, but just not sure. I tried looking at commons in several galleries, but I just cannot pick out enough specifics to identify the name.

Wanted to get the Hound or one of the other expert sleuths out there to render their opinion.

Thanks Dave

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by Harford20

I was going through some of the cards that I have never had graded and came across this Polar Bear Addie Joss Pitching. I first noted that there was not a name at the bottom and assumed it was trimmed. I measured it, and the length was a solid 2-5/8" or 67 mm (NL or near NL). Upon close inspection I noted this partial name at the top. Despite looking at my other T206s I cannot come up with a match, although I have mainly a HOFer collection. I kept trying to put Joss' own name up there, but just not sure. I tried looking at commons in several galleries, but I just cannot pick out enough specifics to identify the name.

Wanted to get the Hound or one of the other expert sleuths out there to render their opinion.

Thanks Dave

95% certain it is Joss, Cleveland:

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by t206hound

95% certain it is Joss, Cleveland:

I concur

[Luke]

That's "SCHLEI N. Y. NAT' L" on top

[Jantz]

Nice card Luke!

Thank you for posting it.


Jantz

[Jantz]

First off I would like to thank everyone who has participated in this thread.

From the start of this thread I've always asked for a card's back information and here is a reason why the back information is just as important as the card's front.

In post #210 Luke posted up a newly discovered two different name T206. Heinie Wagner (left shoulder) Sweet Caporal 350 f#30 with Schlei's name at the top. So as we deducted earlier in this thread, Schlei's name on the top would make it the catching pose.

Yesterday Luke posted the Johnson with Schlei's name on the top again, but with a different back. Since the Johnson has a Piedmont 150 back, the Schlei card on top would also be the catching pose again.

So a breakdown would be Schlei (catching pose) above two different player's cards, on two different backs, along with two different series.

Just some interesting points I wanted to point out to everyone else.

Thanks again


Jantz

[Jobu]

Fascinating stuff Jantz.

If I read you right, basically what you are saying is that sheet layout appears to have varied between backs. This would help to explain why this puzzle has been so difficult to piece together.

My Questions:

One
Are there any examples of a player with 3 different names on the top (his own plus two others) that all have the same back? (EX: All three from Piedmont 150-25)

If this exists it would seem to suggest that we may never figure out a true sheet layout because there were too many moving parts even within a print run for a single series of a single ad back in a single factory.

Two
Are there examples of identical two name on top players that are from different ad backs within the same series but from the same factory? (EX: Player A usually has player A above him but less frequently has an identical player B above him for both Piedmont 150-25 and Sweet Cap 150-25)

The existence of this seems plausible to me and would suggest that layout variation occurred between, and not within, factories.

Yet another wrinkle would be changes in layout between series and factory (EX: Pd 150-25 and SC 150-25 share a layout that is different than the shared layout by Pd 350-25 and SC 350-25).

I think that is enough rampant speculation for one post. Particularly because this may all have been covered in old threads (sorry if that is the case!).

[curtis-cards]

I have an O'Leary SC 350-460, 42 overprint with O'Leary, Detroit on top. Name is cut off on bottom as well.

[t206hound]

Another Piedmont 150... not as nice as a WaJo, but I'll still take it.

[Luke]

Nice card Erick! That WaJo isn't actually mine. It went for $800, which I actually think is a nice buy, but my money/focus was tied up elsewhere and I bowed out around $700. I posted it after the auction ended for posterity.

[t206hound]

Much to my surprise, as I was scanning cards from the lot, I realized that it wasn't Shipke on top of this card... a quick check, and I have another for the collection: Shipke-Griffith (also a Piedmont 150). Crazy!

[Luke]

Hmmm, I was thinking Shipke must be at the top of the sheet. But now it looks like that isn't the case. Here's mine:

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

Hmmm, I was thinking Shipke must be at the top of the sheet. But now it looks like that isn't the case. Here's mine:

Your shipke is from the top of the sheet. Either sheets were more complex with their layouts, or the layouts changed.

[mrvster]

En Fuego

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Your shipke is from the top of the sheet. Either sheets were more complex with their layouts, or the layouts changed.

I agree with Er!ck about the Shipke.

Nice cards Er!ck!

Two in one week. Do you think maybe you could let a few slip by for us other two different-name T206 collectors?

For those keeping score, this is the second T206 with Griffith (portrait) appearing on a two-different name T206.

The other was a Griffith (portrait) with Chase's name on the top. Piedmont 350 was the back.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by Jantz

I agree with Er!ck about the Shipke.



Nice cards Er!ck!



Two in one week. Do you think maybe you could let a few slip by for us other two different-name T206 collectors?

I can't help it if they were both in the same lot!