An Old Judge question..

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Posted By: David Goff

After months of contemplating, I've started collecting Pre-war cards again. Mainly, because I want my 3yr old son to get a head start. Well, that's what I tell my wife anyway. The question I have is I wanted to start purchasing some Old Judge's, but I have run across some that have a pinkish tint to them. Is this common due to age or are they meant to have this feature.

Thanks
David Goff

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Old Judges images can come in different color, most commonly pink. It was intentional and in fact the technology to add dye during the photo process was invented in the 1880s. For whatever reason, pink dye was the easiest to do. The other colors are rare. The pink ones often have bad image quality so there is no price premium. Often they are priced less than the regular sepia. Other colors will have a premium due to rarity.

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Posted By: Jay

David--What tint colors carry a premium? What are you talking about?

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Posted By: David Goff

This is what I was referring to...borrowed this off of ebay

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Posted By: barrysloate

The number one thing Old Judge collectors look for is the quality of the photo. Because the pink tinted ones generally have lighter photos, they are less desirable.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

As mentioned, the main thing with the pink ones is the images often have bad contrast (faded away), so you have to be conscious of that when purchasing a pink one. This one might be somewhat light, but looks okay-- though maybe not for the high grade given.

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Posted By: David Goff

Would the of color of this card be due to age? Again, borrowed this pic from eBay. I hope no one minds me doing this...just trying to get a feel for these cards. To me, Old Judge and Pre-war cards in general represent the true meaning of baseball. Love 'em!

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Posted By: davidcycle

The common sepia is due to age. The images were originally closer to black and white, though had some light color to them. A couple of years ago, BMW cards pulled one or two N172 cards from unopened packs, and they had the original, non-sepia colors.

Believe it or not, the image surface of the Old Judges, Four Base Hits, Gypsy Queens, Lone Jacks, etc are covered in chicken egg whites. That's what they used to hold the photo chemicals to the paper surface and what causes the Old Judge gloss. So aging of some sort can be expected.

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Posted By: barrysloate

While sunlight can ruin a photograph, I doubt sunlight or age was a factor. Old Judges were mass produced and the negatives were used over and over. That is my guess as to why some of them are light; they started out that way.

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Posted By: barrysloate

David- that's interesting. Albumen comes from an egg, so that's why they are called albumen photos.

I guess there is some aging, but the negatives were also overused causing some loss of clarity.

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Posted By: davidcycle

Barry, I agree with you that the Old Judges were mass produced commercial items and many may have started off light or otherwise off. They were making loads of these photo cards, and I'm sure their production standards were far from perfect. The T206s, as a more modern example, come with all sorts of production errors-- off colors, misprints, ghosts, etc. Sometimes you wonder if the T206 printing factory was next to a saloon. Though the natural aging no doubt contributes greatly to the Old Judge images.

I don't know, but it's a good guess that the pink dye prevented the pink Old Judges from developing well when they were originally made.

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Posted By: joe

David, this is the quality of the photo you should look for in Old Judge cards.



Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Matt

Joe - even with the blurry scan, the quality on that OJ is incredible!

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Posted By: joe

Thanks Matt, I know I have to re-scan the cards. There is some trick when they are slabbed.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: JimB

Hey Joe,
Can I have that Hanlon?
JimB

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Posted By: David Goff

Hey Joe..I just love the fake backgrounds in those OJ cards. Awesome card!! (Actually calling you bad names under my breath...only becasue I'am jealous..lol)

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Posted By: Fred C

David,

The example Joe has shown you is exceptional. If it had rounded corners it'd still be a nice card to have because of the image clarity/quality. I tend to agree with Barry, most pinks are fairly faded but there are some pinks that have a nice image quality. As long as the image is crisp and clear the card will be desireable to OJ collectors. I've seen a few cards like the example Joe has shown that has back damage and are graded SGC20 or 30. I'd take those cards all day long at the discount due to the lower grade.

IMAGE quality first - corners, edges and back damage would be secondary.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

To summarize this and past discussions, the following can be stated:

1) Old Judge cards with a tint first appeared in 1889. The amount of tinting varies from barely noticeable to heavy and is always pink although the darker tints border on purple or even red (rarely seen). I'd love to see a tint that falls outside of pink in color. Other tints were used at the time but not sure you'll find it on an OJ card.

2) The (pink) tinted cards almost always have worse photo details hence generally undesirable.

3) The first year issue Old Judge cards for 1887, 1888, & 1889 (non-tinted versions), when new, had good image quality. Those that were re-issued were also generally decent photo quality, only slightly worse than the original issue year. It wasn't until 1890 that photo quality went to crap. Many of the 1890 cards are also tinted (like some of the 1889 examples) causing further image issues.

4) All Old Judges, regardless of year, tint, etc. exhibit some photo quality degradation associated with age. Light (sun light, even indoor light) is enemy number 1. Temperature & Humidity can also take its toll. Most of the light/faint image Old Judges today spent a portion of their life, perhaps much of it, exposed to light.

The above 4 points will help you better understand why there is so much variance in OJ image quality. Some of it is due to tinting vs non-tinting, year of issue (1890 sucks), and most importantly how it has been cared for over the last 120 years (displayed in sunlight or saved in a closed scrapbook).

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Here is an example of 3 1887 Old Judges, all of them likely started life with similar image qualities. Excessive exposure to the elements (light) has taken it's toll.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: Aaron Conyers

Here is an example with the pink tint. The pink tint looks like a layer, notice where the pink begins and ends on the bottom corners.


[IMG][/IMG]

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Posted By: boxingcardman

I have a few on my site:

http://imageevent.com/exhibitman/rareboxingcards

The Dempsey came from a Victorian-era scrapbook so the image is really nice and the card is almost white (the scanner yellowed it a bit) even though it is technically in fair condition due to back damage from removal. I actually had a vg-ex card that I got rid of instead and kept this one because the image is so nice.

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Posted By: Fred C

Here are a few examples of some pinks. The Healy has great image quality but it also has a huge crease. The Flint portrait is typical as far as the faint image is concerned. There is an example of a "normal" tone Werrick next to a pink toned Werrick.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

Here's a Brouthers card with a great image, along with a pink card with an unusually good image.

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Posted By: Anonymous