Question about the Red Cobb Portait with Drum back T206

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Posted By: Eric

In a post where Leon said Ebay was making an effort to clean up the sports card side of their site, he makes a reference to a T-206 Red Portrait Cobb with a Drum back. Leon states that it is an obvious re-back in a hacked PSA holder.

My question is how do you determine this? When I checked the PSA registry for that certification number: 90660562, it lists it as that card. Did PSA screw up and not realize that this was a re-back when they authenticated it? Does the actual card reside in a member's collection? I'm just curious on how one can determine this. Thanks in advance for any input.

The auction ID is: 220142267373

Additional Statement: I am not interested in this card, nor do I know the seller. I just want to increase my knowledge so I can possibly spot a re-back in the future, especially one in a slab.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

If you look at the front, you can see all of the horizontal "cracks/creases" on the front where the card was separated from its original back. Also, along the edges on the reverse, you can see the remains of glue used to piece the two halves together.

If you do a quick search, read the article posted by Kevin on how to spot rebacking.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Eric, I think PSA was simply fooled by the rebacked card. No question the slab has not been tampered with but that is just about the worst rebacking job one could imagine.

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Posted By: leon

I was guessing on the cracking of the case...I wasn't guessing on the rebacking of the card. PSA should take accountability for this one. It was hard to see the edges of the case from the scan and I was giving PSA the benefit of the doubt....regards

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Posted By: Eric

Thanks for the help fellas.

Could someone please post the link to Kevin's article? I couldn't find it. I saw the cracking on the front, but have seen some cards that have the same pattern, but they were not re-backed. Then there's the fold on the top left corner running diagnally next to his head, and it goes through to the other side.

So the spotting around the edges on the back is one sure sign that it has been rebacked? Thanks again.

It blows my mind that a card like this can get through PSA. Worries me a bit.

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Posted By: leon

Very soon (hopefully by the end of next week) we will have, in place of the "poll" on the top front page, a read only section on Identifying card alterations and forgeries. We are working on it now. It will have pictures and give detailed info on how to spot these things. It will be a collaboration of hobby experts information. Rebacking will be included.....Whenever we do a poll it will be for a week, or so, and we will take down the alteration tab for a short while. We believe this will benefit our whole collecting community. It will be a "read only" place so there will be no discussion at all. We can discuss anything about it on the main board though......We (Brian and I) are trying to make this site better all of the time....regards

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

I personally would like to find out when this card was graded.
Long ago or recently??
The Psa website doesnt show that information. Any way of finding out?

Tony

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Posted By: Eric

Thanks Leon. That sounds awesome. I can't wait for that. I'll definitely be spending some time there.

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Posted By: Eric

My guess is that it would have been graded recently. It has the "Drum" designation on the slab. They started doing that this year. Also the registration number is high. Do the registration numbers go in order, so the higher the number the more recent the submission? That's my guess anyway, but if I'm wrong, please chime in.

Edited to add: I just checked some of my cards. If the slab doesn't have the back designation on it, when you do a certification check, the back doesn't show up. If it is on the slab, it will show up. So my guess is still that it must be a recent submission.

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Posted By: Mark T

pop report on PSA and there is only 1 graded Drum Ty Cobb. I do think it was graded in the last 6 months because of the PSA label.

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Posted By: Richard L.

Anyone want to do a $15,000.00 experiment, buy the card, then let PSA reimburse you for it. Now that would be some ugly publicity.

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Posted By: rand

how did this get through PSA, wouldnt a card like this demand the top grader to verify and signoff?

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

the holder could be altered, the scans could be altered - I wouldn't condemn PSA so quickly w/o seeing the card in person.

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Rand -
Thats my whole point of asking when the card was graded. With all the new
high tech altering that's said to be going on in our hobby today, wouldn't you
think a card of this stature been given high alert status with any authenticator
out there?

Tony

edited to say - Jeff, your absolutely right.

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Posted By: rand

According to the PSA Certification Database, certification number 90660562 is defined as the following:

ITEM INFORMATION
Year: 1911
Brand: DRUM
Player: TY COBB
Variety: PORTRAIT-RED
Grade: 1


**** here is the psa website verification *** so i dont think i am to quick to condemn PSA's carelessness.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Here is the link to Kevin's post about how to detect rebacking:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1183831878/last-1183854862/rebacked++-+examples+and+what+to+look+for

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Posted By: Art M.

Here is the background on the T206 Cobb, red portrait, with Drum back currently residing in the PSA 1 holder, serial number 90660562:

April 2000 - Ron Oser holds his regular auction. Lot 47 and 48 contain several tough back T206 cards (each lot has Drum, Lenox, Uzit, etc.) Lot 47 contains a T206 Donovan, throwing pose, Detroit, with Drum back. As a collector of T206 Detroit players with tough backs I am very interested in lot 47 and bid strongly. I do not win. I do keep a scan of the Donovan Drum back for my records.

May 2000 - Many of the same cards from the Ron Oser auction lot 47 and lot 48 begin showing up on Ebay. All are sold by the same seller. All show up on Ebay except the T206 Donovan, throwing, with Drum back. I email the Ebay seller asking if there is any way to buy/trade etc. for the Donovan card but receive no reply.

November 2000 - Mastro Fine Sports Auctions is offering a T206 Cobb, red portrait, with Drum back as lot 561. The card is graded PSA 2 and the back seems to be the SAME as the Donovan, Drum back from the April Ron Oser auction. Bill Mastro examines the Cobb in the PSA holder and can tell it is rebacked. The card is taken to a PSA representative (I recall this was at the Fort Washington show in PA.) where the card is cracked out and revealed to be rebacked. Lot 561 is withdrawn from the Mastro auction. The lot was consigned by the SAME person who was selling the other cards on Ebay in May.

It was my understanding that the rebacked Cobb, red portrait with Drum back was destroyed by PSA and/or Mastro but it now appears again seven years later as Ebay auction 220142267373.

From the scans below you can see from the 2000 Ron Oser auction Donovan, Drum back scan that this is the SAME back which appears on the Cobb card. The crease in the upper right is identical, but also there is the printing dot in the left margin below "D" in Drum and above "C" in cigarettes that makes the perfect match.





Maybe some other board members can show better scans from the 2000 Oser auction lot 47 and/or the November 2000 Mastro auction lot 561.

I wish the Cobb with Drum back was real, but it is not.
Art M.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Art, great post. Wonder why that rebacked Cobb was not destroyed?

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Posted By: Eric

Wow! Very informative. Thanks Art.

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Posted By: Mike

Who pays for it if a card is destroyed? PSA wouldn't possibly destroy the card and tell the owner they are out the money for a variety of legal reasons. The submitter might not be the same person who did the rebacking and might have recourse with the person they purchased it from (in person or in court) and would need the card for evidence. Of course they are going to give the card back to the owner and say "Sorry, this has been rebacked".

And of course that person will try submitting it again a few years later once the graders have forgotten...

Now PSA screwed up big time and has to pay the piper... but likely will come up with an excuse to not do so.

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

wow, great stuff Art!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Brian W has a larger F/B scan of this card on this Thread......check-out June 1, 2007 3:48 PM post

Note that in this pix, this card is in a Beckett graded holder.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1180700707/last-1180770222/rebacked
+hindu+Matty

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Posted By: MVSNYC

guys- maybe i shouldn't get involved, but this cobb drum belongs to a board member, and a very knowledgable one at that...i saw this card a few months ago in a BVG holder, he just got it crossed-over to PSA recently...i'll email him tomorrow and encourage him to respond to this thread...

Best-
MS

edited to say: for what it's worth, i now remember that it was in a BVG holder when i saw it, NOT raw. and he crossed it over to PSA recently.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Michael,
I'm aware of who the card belongs to, but it doesn't change my opinion. This card was re-backed, period and should not be in any slab. It was "created" by the same dynamic duo that created may of these Monsters....

Be well Brian


PS The seller is a first class collector who I have had many transactions with, including one last week, so If I'm wrong I will gladly admit it. But, if Art, Ted, and I all agree I would say that PSA has made a big mistake.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

hey brian...

i actually didn't say whether i thought it was real or not, just that i know the owner and he had it slabbed recently...

he is a super guy and great collector (as you know)...i'll talk to him tomorrow...

best-
MS

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Michael,
I received 4 emails about this card today alone; not to mention the ones tonight. Like I said, I have NOTHING BAD to say about the seller, but I agree with Ted and Art. In fact Art and I between the 2 of us probably have scans of the backs of 90% of the Drum's in existence. And this is not the first time we have figured out where one came from.... Be well Brian

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Posted By: Eric

With the link that Ted provided:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1180700707/last-1180770222/rebacked

and the really good pics of the Cobb in a Beckett holder, you can really see the glue residue (or what looks like it) around the back edges.

Could the owner chime in and give us his opinion (views) if he wants to?

Then I'd like to know if he can go after PSA for incorrectly identifying this card, if in fact it is re-backed.

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Posted By: Richard

Prior to me finding out that the card was rebacked, the owner of the card emailed me and said that he had PSA grade the card himself and that he thought that the card was accurately graded.

As I usually assume the best as well as hope for the best, I will assume that the seller had no knowledge that the card was rebacked.

When I asked if I could get SGC to take a look at the card if I were to buy it, the seller never replied back.

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Posted By: David Smith

Another case of greed ruining two perfectly good cards. Because of the stupid person who created this monster, a Ty Cobb card has been destroyed AND a common player with Drum back has been destroyed. Why can't people leave things alone??

A few years back there was the Just So Burkett. From what I read on this board, a perfectly good Just So actress card was destroyed so the trimmed Burkett could be restored to "look" like it originally did. I also read that this restoration job took longer than expected and cost quite a bit. I also think I later read the card was auctioned off and didn't sell for nearly what the consigner thought it would or should. I don't know if the person who had the work performed lost money on the Burkett or not but I do seem to remember that they were disappointed about the selling price.

Looks to me there are lessons in BOTH of these instances, like just leave things alone. If it is rare, there will be collectors out there willing to buy no matter the condition.

Here is my large Gypsy Queen card of Tim Keefe. Yes, it is trimmed but I am happy with it just the way it is. I am sure if I wanted to, I could also have it restored but what is the point? I am also sure that if I wanted to, I could sell it fairly quickly and that there would be more than one person interested in acquiring it, just because it is rare. A collector might not be able to find or afford an unaltered large Gypsy Queen card (I know right now I couldn't), especially of a Hall of Fame player but this type of card they could.

David

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Posted By: Scott Levy

My father is the owner of this card, so I'd like to jump in and explain what I know about it and I will give him the opportunity to comment later if he chooses:

The card was purchased at an auction as a legitimate T206 Drum back Cobb in a BVG holder years ago. Neither myself nor my father has ever opened this case or submitted it to a grading service before this recent submission to PSA. It was submitted to PSA less than 1 month ago, when we considered the sale of the card, as PSA is so highly respected. Any suggestion that myself or my father tore apart a card and pasted it or rebacked it is totally untrue, it's simply not our style.

Likewise, Any accusation of the PSA case being "cracked" and some bogus card being inserted is likewise completely untrue. If proof is ever needed we can probably find the original submission sheet to PSA. This card was received from PSA by us very recently and has not been altered in any way.

While I do have over a decade of experience in collecting T206 cards and rare backs, I am not a printing expert and probably wouldn't be able to myself judge if a card is rebacked or trimmed or altered, which is why for high value cards we tend to purchase graded items.

I am saddened to hear that there are even questions about the card's legitimacy. But noone should doubt that the PSA holder is faked or cracked, because it is not.

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Posted By: Richard

Scott -

I am not sure if I was conversing with yourself or your father, but I wish both of you the best of luck and I hope that this story has a happy ending.

There is a lot of knowledge on this board and I hope that you will be offered many helping hands if and when the time comes.

Regards,
Richard

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Posted By: barrysloate

Scott- I had the opportunity to meet you recently and have known your dad for years, and I know that neither of you would knowingly offer a bad card.

What I see here is yet another example of the sloppy way that grading and authentication is handled by a company that treats rare baseball cards as cogs on an assembly line. There is no question they could have done a better job. This is just shameful.

Until these companies find a better way to get it right I have little to no respect for the work they do. If people want to clean up the hobby it begins with the companies who do the authenticating.

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Posted By: Dave F

I'll also add I think Scott is a honest guy and good to deal with having done a transaction or two with him in past. I don't know Scott's dad but I'm sure the apple didn't fall far from the tree and I would imagine his dad is just as honest and straightforward.

I think the "right" thing to resolve this situation would be PSA taking resposiblity and at least reimbursing Scott's father what he originally paid for the card being that they the "experts" crossed it over.

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

I think Barry said it best.
"If people want to clean up the hobby it begins with the companies who do the authenticating".
Well put.

Tony

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Posted By: Eric

I too have done a transaction with Scott and his father. They are great to deal with and the card was great. I couldn't be happier. I don't have one bad thing to say about them.

PSA on the other hand....needs to get their crap together. I really hope this works out for you Scott.

Edited: Wrong name. Sorry Scott. Thanks for pointing it out so I don't look like a total boob.

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Posted By: leon

I have also heard that Scott L (hi Scott) and his dad are super folks and extremely ethical. None of this mess has anything to do with them except the card is not good and is in a PSA holder and they currently own it. I hope it all works out and hope we get to find out the final outcome. I try not to bash PSA anymore but this is a poor situation and I hope they make it right. That card has a history too. It was on ebay a few years ago in the BVG holder. I called the "then president" of Beckett and spoke with him about it. I offered to buy the card on ebay, it was about $2700, if they would stand behind it. His response was that it was in their holder and that was good enough...so NO, they would not make me whole if I bought it and it turned out to not be good. That person is no longer with Beckett.....Once again I am sure this is absolutely no reflection on Scott or his Dad....regards

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Posted By: MVSNYC

guys, maybe i'm naive here, but is everyone presuming this card is rebacked, just by merely comparing it to a fuzzy scan of another drum back? please enlighten me further.

regards,
MS

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Posted By: Dave F

Michael..the evidence brought forth for what it is worth and the comments by Brian and Art are certainly condemning. However, wouldn't you imagine a Ty Cobb red portrait with a Drum back would be heavily inspected by all of the PSA staff? I would think so...especially with this having took place one month ago? So who really knows?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I think Art M's post earlier in this Thread pretty well states the history of this Cobb/Drum card. And, if anyone on this forum
would like this card to be legit, it is Art. This front/back combination is a valid one; however, it is rarely seen and has to be
one of the most rare combinations of T206's.

Brian W's enlarged pix of this card (graded by Beckett) reinforces what Art has told us to look for. It should be returned to PSA.
Or, if a 2nd opinion is needed, submitted to SGC or GAI (I trust Mike Baker to provide a valid opinion on this card).

TED Z

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Posted By: Richard L.

Auction still running, 2 offers made, one declined and one pending. Think WE are all curious how this will play out!

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Posted By: sagard

"May 2000 - Many of the same cards from the Ron Oser auction lot 47 and lot 48 begin showing up on Ebay. All are sold by the same seller. All show up on Ebay except the T206 Donovan, throwing, with Drum back. I email the Ebay seller asking if there is any way to buy/trade etc. for the Donovan card but receive no reply."

Does anyone have the Ebay ID of the seller in question?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Ted- i just read Art's post, it is compelling...

i guess the fact that it was in a BVG holder, and 2 different PSA holders, would make one think it is authentic...i don't know, we'll see what happens.

just for the record, scott & his dad hank are incredible people and i wish them all the best!

MS

edited to add:

i also highly respect Brian, Ted, Art & Leon's opinions...

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Posted By: ScottLevy

Given the comments that I have read, I have made the decision to amend our eBay listing to mention the re-back concern. I have further decided to reject offers made before noon today (when i revised the listing -- even though somehow the revision is not showing yet). Of course there is a flip side to the story, Two authentication services have blessed this card. Obviously, there is significant contention about these blessings but they are nonetheless paid professionals who have considered the card to be "good". While many have completely considered this card to be bogus I have not yet gone to that extreme. Let's just say that I now have doubts about its authenticity.

I respect the opinions of many of the group members here and am faced with a genuinely difficult issue. This card was purchased for $2500 years ago, and myself/my dad are not wealthy enough for this to not matter.

So I'm looking for advice from the experts to provide to my dad (who will make the ultimate decision). What course of action do people believe is reasonable for us to take....we do care about the hobby and want to protect it but need to look after our interests as well. I'm open to suggestions and I appreciate the kind words posted about us.

-Scott

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Posted By: barrysloate

Scott- with all due respect to you and your dad, that's a poor plan. Art M. already showed us that the card is not real, and is the product of a common with a Drum back and a Cobb with a common back. He was able to detect the diagnostic points which clinched it.

Despite the fact that you will be taking an unfortunate financial hit, the card is either real or it's fake, it can't be partially real. I think you need to pull the auction and have a discussion with someone at PSA. Sorry, but that's my opinion.

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Posted By: JimB

I agree with Barry. Pull the auction for now and attempt to get some sort of restitution from PSA. I would provide them with the information that Art M. provided here. The one time I had an issue like this, PSA was very helpful and I was compensated in full.
JimB

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Posted By: Dave F

I would think PSA should be professional enough to take the hit on your dad's initial $2500 investment. Its not like Mr. Orlando can claim this happened before he was in charge...it was a month ago, on his watch.

But I do agree...letting the auction run and selling it to somebody even if they know the history of the card will do nothing in the long run except put it in the hands of someone that doesn't know the question marks behind it..and at a hefty price tag.

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Posted By: PC

Busting that franken-card out of the Becketts holder, after it was disclosed here, and submitting it to PSA in order to make a sale, caused my spidey senses to tingle.

Then, validation.

Always trust your instincts.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Why would PSA be responsible for anything more than refunding the grading fee? PSA has not damaged the owner.

Nor do I believe that Becketts would be liable. The card no longer resides in its holder. Once it is cracked out I think that relives Beckett of any responsibilty especially in light of the fact that the card was subsequently authenticated by another grading company.

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Posted By: Dave F

Steve,

I kind of hear what your saying...why should PSA be responsible for more than the grading fee...but...

would you agree that if someone bought the card for say $12000 then PSA would be responsible for that?

To me...the standup thing to do since PSA may have missed this one completely is buy the card for what Scott's dad has in it...and destroy the card. Doesn't show good business practice if they started squabbling over just returning a free grading voucher.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

"would you agree that if someone bought the card for say $12000 then PSA would be responsible for that?"

Absolutely!!!