T206 Elberfeld controversy.....continued

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

On a current thread a controversy developed that hijacked that thread, due to a scan I posted of two Elberfeld cards.
So, I'm posting them again to continue that debate, since this controversy was not resolved, and ended with sarcasm.

Upon posting these two Elberfeld cards (NY & Washington) a poster commented that the "dots" above and between
the "O, R & K" of YORK are hints of the "W" being removed and replaced with New York.

When I informed this poster that the Washington variation (350 series-1910) of this card was printed subsequent to
the NY version (150 series-1909), he didn't want to be "confused with the details"....he saw what he saw and that's
they way it is....furthermore, two other posters chimed in to support what he said.

Well, I say a "consensus" is not always correct....so, I scanned all my New York Elberfeld cards to prove to these three
guys that the "dots" they are seeing are some extraneous marks that are in NO WAY related to any remnants of the "W"
that they are contending.

Finally.....I leave this issue up to other Net54ers to resolve.....as I have lost patience dealing with skeptics who do not
understand or appreciate the Series' timelines in T206 set; and, refuse to accept any attempts to inform them.

TED Z






WHERE'S THE BEEF....oops, I mean THE "DOTS" ON THESE THREE ELBERFELD's ? ? ? ? ?

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Nice job of "air brushing" Ted.

I think you have made your point (not that the naysayers are going to listen). One is only to look at Elberfeld's career to see what came first the chicken (New York) or the egg (Washington).

New York 1903 to 1909
Washington 1910-1911

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Posted By: judson hamlin

If one concluded that the dots were "airbrushed", it might also correspond with the "NY" used by the Highlanders that shows up on Hal Chase's E90, or the "N Y" that shows up on that set's Keeler and Sweeney. It might have been an updating in line with the Cubs cards, albeit in an earlier print run. I don't have immediate access to the uniform timeline for the team, but I mention this as a possibility for discussion.

edited to spell Sweeney correctly

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Hello Ted Z.
Didnt want to ruffle your feathers but I did say Im not an expert on the time line and I do believe you but My eyes and other eyes see something. But secondly your new post of the 3 cards isnot the same as the first post. The card in question with the dots ,shadows what ever isnt in your new 3 card post. The new post shows elberfield and the words N.Y. Amer. where the card in question on the old post just says Elberfield. Ted I believe you and I stand corrected.

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Posted By: J Hull

The "dots" on the one Elberfeld example could just have been a smudge, lint, or other dirt on the printing plate used for the black ink layer, which then got cleaned by the pressman, and so the "dots" aren't seen on other Elberfeld (New York) cards. Unless there are a bunch of other examples, I think it's just dirt on the plate that caused the "dots".

Jamie

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Posted By: PC

You guys are missing the obvious here -- one of those cards is the ultra-rare "F"lberfeld variation, that appears only with a Sovereign 150 back.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The scan is the same as the prior scan you saw in the other thread. I just focused in on the area of question.
I don't play "games", mister. Boy, do you have a suspicious mind. But, since you choose not to accept my facts,
then just read the other comments here.

Finally, take a good close look again at those MARKS on that NY card of Elberfeld, they do not even align properly
with the "W" location on the Washington version.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

PC,
Your right! I missed that !

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Ted,
I do I do accept your facts! I said so I said I stand corrected! I just bought new glasses and now I dont see anything there at all. What 3 cards!

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Posted By: sagard

What was the original fight about? I'd like to read that thread.

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Posted By: Steve

Ted, Is it possible there was "handwriting" or possibly a light stamp partly removed? Seems there is faint print above the N and light eraser damage to the _ORK.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Sagard its on the t206 super print artists post. Nice card but yours says N.Y. americans at the bottom the card in question doesnt.
Steve thankyou at least more eyes see it to.

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Posted By: Elliot

Where are the blue eyes?

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

OK, take a look at where the letters are placed in regard to the second button. The NEW YORK is immediately below the second button while the W is well below the second button. If the dots are actually the tops of the W how did they move up on the uniform from where they are on the W?

Rick

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

In the other Thread, I ran thru the exact scenario you just described....to no avail with either of the 3 skeptics.
It's a waste of time trying to inform the uninformed when they have closed minds.

My advice for everyone (if they haven't already done so) is to read Scot Reader's great analysis of the T206 Set
that he documented and is available online.

Then hopefully, we can have some intelligent discourse on these T206 cards on this forum.

TED Z

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Lighten up Francis.....

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The Elberfeld (NY) card depicts him with Brown eyes, while the Elberfeld (Wash) card depicts him with Blue eyes.
My current scan does not show this difference. Perhaps, I will try again later and focus in on Elberfeld's eyes to
show you this difference.

TED Z

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Rick,
I guess I will have to say it this way IN MY OPINION something doesnt look quite right with that 1 Elberfield at all. If you do look closly his nose is a little wider and the lip under his nose is also different. And one point that is also made about that card and I guess that is a given his eyes are a different color. So possibly the button might have been moved up or down? and if up or down instead of that being the top of the W couldnt it be a part of the middle of it? If some kind of an air brush or artist change was used? Ted not to get you angry at all but what if or could there be a possiblity that that 1 card is a fake? Im only asking dont rip my head off. But that is one possiblity you didnt cover.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ted, if you know, why would the makers have a player with blue eyes in one picture and brown in another? Was this to signify something? Or just a mistake? Attempt to show a difference in the year issued?

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Ted,
Just for the record I just went back in the other thread and re read it NO WHERE do you say anything about the buttons.
Secondly I am not uninformed or close minded as you so state it. Im starting to reserve that honor just for you sir.
I stated a observation that I saw backed up by some other people and it wasnt I who restarted this post . I told you before I stand corrected you are the king of every set and know everything!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'll first answer your question with these scans....look at Cobb's eyes in these two examples.....

350/460 Series card



150 series card





My Green Cobb scan isn't the best....anyhow, in his 150 Series card he has Brown eyes and (as is evident) in his
350/460 Series card he has Blue eyes.

This is nothing unusual....as I have noticed (and have previously mentioned) that after the 1st series of the T206
production American Litho. used deeper Blue ink in the printing of their subsequent two series (i.e., 350 and 460).

This became clearly evident to me when I was assembling my Piedmont set where I arranged the 518 cards into their
respective series in my BB card album.

TED Z

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Posted By: brian

theory: many years ago somebody tried to artificially create an error card by taking a rubber stamp with a slightly smaller "w" than the original and touched it against the card with almost no ink at all on the stamp. Then they lightly rubbed an eraser against the "R" in New York.

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Posted By: DaveW

Here's a closeup of the two cards. I can't say the eyes turned blue, maybe just the shades of the printing. NY on the left, Wash on the right.




By the way, the NY card is a Piedmont 150, while the Wash card is Piedment 350, which supports Ted's sequence.

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Posted By: barry arnold

thanks for bringing back to mind our old discussions regarding blue eyed
Elberfeld, Elliot!!!
cogent argumentation,Trex; many thanks.

best,
barry

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

STEVE MURRAY

Thanks for your words of wisdom....you succinctly stated everything better than I did.


JAMIE HULL

You bring up a good point...."Unless there are a bunch of other examples......"

Well, there haven't been any others; and, I have seen many Elberfeld's over the past 26 years. In fact it's one of the T206's
that I collect with all its possible backs (the only one I am missing is the Brown HINDU).


DAVE W

Thanks for the close-up scans of the two Elberfeld's.....and, thanks for your supporting words.


TED Z

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Posted By: Al Simeone

PC, STEVE,DAVE,BARRY,
Thanks for having an open mind! I guess the poster only acknowledges the people with his way of thinking! The close minded way. You won Ted Z strike up the band! That and a nickel wont get you a cup of coffee!

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Posted By: Steve Murray

but am I missing something?

Are there really those of you out there that seriously believe that the Washington came before the New York and you reach that conclusing based on a few dots on one card?

Or am I misreading this whole issue? If so, please enlighten me.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

My only interest was in the dots as they appeared to be part of the original printing process. I also could not tell that the NY AMER was scratched out on one example Ted posted. In short, I was wondering what was going on with the card that had the dots. The order the cards were issued in is not something I was questioning and I never stated they were representative of a "W" being there on the New York card. I was told, however, that I HAD questioned the order of issue and castigated in the prior thread and on this one for no good reason nonetheless.

Whatever, I'm over it now but the tone some of Ted's messages took was a bit much. If people have legitimate questions, then they should be able to post them without being attacked for their position. I have done it myself and it's easy to knee jerk react sometimes but Ted you have a lot of T206 knowledge but are extremely sensitive when questioned about it sometimes. There's no reason to be, you have a great collection and at the end of the day it's just a hobby.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Steve,
No not at all as was stated I know the time line on when Elberfeld played, I know which came first the chicken or the egg. I made a comment on JUST that 1 particular card that something doesnt look right about it. And yes the marks look very odd. I dont have the luxury of having the card right in front of me and Im only commenting on what I see in the scan. Its over ,done,finished. Ted is right he knows all. If they are just stray marks fine no problem at all. But for someone to re start the thread and then tell people they are close minded. Remember if the shoe fits........

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Posted By: Steve Murray

I see the light. Thanks.

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Posted By: leon

I rarely pop in on the t206 threads as I don't know what the heck I am talking about...besides some ole Wagner card is worth a lot of money....and it's not Heinie.....

But I will say this ...the little bit of bickering in this thread is being done amongst friendly folks. Lets try not to antagonize, be condescending, or short with each other. I don't see one a**ho** in this thread. You are all good guys so lets be cool with each other. Happy collecting... Please.....

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Posted By: PC

Let's do a survey to determine how many Elberfeld "spotted" New York variations exist.

The spotted Elberfeld will look great next to my Doyle no-Nat'l with printer's mark variation.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Leon,
As I said its over and I willnot comment on that card again. But I will comment if I feel a condescending remark was aimed at me. I think thats only fair. If you go back and read I only asked a simple question and made an observation on 1 perticular card. Without using a name someone elected to take it to the next level. Sorry Leon and my apologies to the forum.

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Posted By: David Bowden

Since there has been an insane amount of bickering I propose this. At the Net 54 dinner at the National this year you should rent those stupid oversized boxing gloves or sumo suits. Put the two in the ring and let them have some good fun. I don't think any of us are in the best shapes of our lives and the rest the group would have a good laugh. Imagine the matchups. Pete C vs. Jeff, Ted Z and Al, Leon vs. Jay, JimC vs. any self proclaimed "armpit collector." Was going to include Bruce in the lineup but I don't know how many people "we" is. (insert smiley here)

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hadn't looked at this thread for awhile.

Ted is correct that the NY Elberfeld has blue eyes and the Washington brown (or the other way around). That I can confirm.

And there is also no doubt that since he was traded from New York to Washington, it would be impossible for a trace of a "W" to be on his New York jersey.

But all that said, there were a few stray dots on one of the cards. I saw it too. But it could be anything from pencil marks to I don't know what.

And why get bent out of shape over a discussion of T206's? Not worth it.