USA TODAY article regarding FBI subpoenas, doctoring, etc......

[WhenItWasAHobby]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ed/1929959001/

Shocking quote from the article: "Messages left with PSA executives by USA TODAY Sports were not returned".

They're probably tied up either dumping more CLCT stock or lecturing collectors on the power of positive thinking.

[Gradedcardman]

They have been told to not talk to USA Today by their attorney.

[samosa4u]

This article was posted last night, but got out of hand with all the personal attacks and got locked down. I wanted to comment on the article, so I'm glad you started a new thread.

I want to examine what Mr. Lichtman said here:

“While there are questions of what constitutes an improper alteration ..."

I agree with him on that one. I think a lot of people have no problem with soaking cards out of albums or to remove glue stains, etc. I think what really pissed people off is the trimming, bleaching, recoloring, etc. Again, we've had so many debates over this and it's not something all of us can agree on.

PWCC has sold hundreds of thousands of cards and the problematic ones are in the hundreds — or less than 1%

He might be right. It could be a very small number - maybe five percent or less than ten. However, the ones that are altered might be the most expensive ones. I put the "might" in bold letters because I'm not stating it as a fact, but based on everything BODA has been posting, it's mostly the waterfront cards that have been targeted here and they are the most expensive ones. This is what I find concerning.

Anyways, can somebody explain more about what it means to be issued a subpoena? So you have to go to court? Does it mean you've been charged or the judge wants to talk to you? Sorry, I don't understand these things well, especially the US Judicial system.

[drcy]

"I've met thousands of people and only killed 17 of them"-- Jeffrey Dahmer

"I've been to 1000 banks and only robbed 30 of them"-- John Dillinger

The less than 1% makes that much sense-- if they were involved or knowledgeable about the crimes. I bet it's probably that Jeffrey Dahmer was even nice to a lot of people, and Dillinger made honest deposits at banks-- but, of course, that's not the point as far as their crimes go.

I'm no lawyer, but I believe a subpoena only means you're being compelled to testify, give information or such. They often give them to mere witnesses or people with possible information. The subpoena phone companies for the phone records of a criminal. Does not automatically equate with being charged or being guilty with a crime.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

This article was posted last night, but got out of hand with all the personal attacks and got locked down. I wanted to comment on the article, so I'm glad you started a new thread.

I didn't see the prior thread. I hope this thread will facilitate civil discourse.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Anyways, can somebody explain more about what it means to be issued a subpoena? So you have to go to court? Does it mean you've been charged or the judge wants to talk to you? Sorry, I don't understand these things well, especially the US Judicial system.

Generally speaking, subpoenas are court orders to either produce something (duces tecum) or command appearance/attendance (ad testificandum). At this point, I would bet the subpoenas issued in the PWCC matter are the former, and are for "tangible things" such as documents, electronic records or perhaps even cards themselves. Unless there are grand jury proceedings underway, I doubt there are any subpoenas compelling someone's attendance.

The party served with one can object to compliance, in whole or part, and in that sense can go to court. Also, the party serving the subpoena can request court assistance if there is insufficient or non-compliance.

[TanksAndSpartans]

This part didn't quite make sense to me:

Members of BODA often get “tipped off” to questionable auctions by dealers who want the auction process “cleaned up.” Those dealers don’t want their names attached for fear of being ostracized by the sports memorabilia collector community.

Ostracized by collectors, other dealers? Does either make sense?

[vintagetoppsguy]

This part doesn't make sense to me...

Jeff says, "PWCC has sold hundreds of thousands of cards and the problematic ones are in the hundreds..."

The article goes on to say, "Lichtman said that PWCC has already refunded money to “hundreds” of people who purchased suspect cards at auction..."

So, let me get this straight. Hundreds of problematic cards were sold and hundreds of people have been refunded. Sounds to me like nearly everyone who purchased a problematic card has been made whole.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by TanksAndSpartans

This part didn't quite make sense to me:

Members of BODA often get “tipped off” to questionable auctions by dealers who want the auction process “cleaned up.” Those dealers don’t want their names attached for fear of being ostracized by the sports memorabilia collector community.

Ostracized by collectors, other dealers? Does either make sense?

First off, if you're a dealer of PSA cards, you can't criticize PSA or bring a scandal to their attention, otherwise you're pretty much banned from submitting to PSA, being on their dealer list, registry, message board, etc. I've seen this happen first hand.

Second, a lot of dealers and collectors who are heavily invested in PSA cards don't like PSA-related scandals. If for any other reason this hurts their income and hobby/investment respectively. Again from experience, I publicly spoke out about PSA card doctoring ten years ago with compelling evidence and I was shunned and berated by dealers and collectors - even though I was telling the truth and had indisputable evidence of the doctoring. It's mind-boggling.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by TanksAndSpartans

This part didn't quite make sense to me:

Members of BODA often get “tipped off” to questionable auctions by dealers who want the auction process “cleaned up.” Those dealers don’t want their names attached for fear of being ostracized by the sports memorabilia collector community.

Ostracized by collectors, other dealers? Does either make sense?

Makes perfect sense to me. I thought long and hard before I decided to speak my mind. There are MANY dealers who like the status quo. If by upsetting them you limit with whom you can do business it can be a tough situation. I'm sure there are some people out there who won't do business with me because of my outspokenness on the subject. Luckily I'm small enough where they probably weren't doing business with me to begin with. The larger you get the more intertwined the business relationships are.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks for the replies - seems really perverted to me that by doing the right thing, you become a bad guy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by TanksAndSpartans

Thanks for the replies - seems really perverted to me that by doing the right thing, you become a bad guy.

Welcome to sports cards. There is an enormous vested interest in the status quo, whether or not it's built on fraud. People have been doctoring cards, enabling card doctors, or looking the other way forever.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

This part doesn't make sense to me...

Jeff says, "PWCC has sold hundreds of thousands of cards and the problematic ones are in the hundreds..."

The article goes on to say, "Lichtman said that PWCC has already refunded money to “hundreds” of people who purchased suspect cards at auction..."

So, let me get this straight. Hundreds of problematic cards were sold and hundreds of people have been refunded. Sounds to me like nearly everyone who purchased a problematic card has been made whole.

Leon, we need a like button on this site!

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Leon, we need a like button on this site!

+1

[Keith H. Thompson]

Team 1: Collectors, Dealers, Investors, AHs, TPAs who publicly admit that just possibly 1% bad apples are getting past

a. the vigilant graders who are doing their best to prevent the hobby contamination of altered cards, but
b. it is the bad evil card doctors at the root of the problem, not us
c. especially not me.

Team 2: Veteran baseball hobbyists who are willing to risk ostracism and access to the Golden Goose because of

a. principles of honesty and integrity, which no longer have relevance in the hobby industry, or
b. just possibly a genuine love of baseball history and its artifacts.

Collectors have been taking sides for some time. About ten years ago Jim Crandall, a passionate and outspoken collector of cards of Grade 7 or higher, convened a meeting at his offices to ask Team 1 about "alterations." Dave Foreman, to his credit, passed around a large hand full of recolored basketball cards with remarkably sharp corners. A naive collector like myself could only gasp. I asked Doug Allen a rhetorical question -- "what percentage of the cards in the average collector's portfolio are altered?" Barry Sloate was the only person in the room asking the really tough questions -- and getting nowhere.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Wish I could've been a fly on that wall.

[Keith H. Thompson]

Team 1: Collectors, Dealers, Investors, AHs, TPAs who publicly admit that just possibly 1% bad apples are getting past

a. the vigilant graders who are doing their best to prevent the hobby contamination of altered cards, but
b. it is the bad evil card doctors at the root of the problem, not us
c. especially not me.

Team 2: Veteran baseball hobbyists who are willing to risk ostracism and access to the Golden Goose because of

a. principles of honesty and integrity, which no longer have relevance in the hobby industry, or
b. just possibly a genuine love of baseball history and its artifacts.

Collectors have been taking sides for some time. About ten years ago Jim Crandall, a passionate and outspoken collector of cards of Grade 7 or higher, convened a meeting at his offices to ask Team 1 about "alterations." Dave Foreman, to his credit, passed around a large hand full of recolored basketball cards with remarkably sharp corners. A naive collector like myself could only gasp. I asked Doug Allen a rhetorical question -- "what percentage of the cards in the average collector's portfolio are altered?" Barry Sloate was the only person in the room asking the really tough questions -- and getting nowhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jim was a regular poster here for quite some time, and of course Barry is a fixture. I don't recall either posting about this meeting though.

[Jay Wolt]

The card on that list that went for most at auction was a 1914 Cracker Jack Joe Jackson, which was originally graded by PSA as a 2 and sold at auction for $22,800 in 2017.

SGC later gave it a 5.0 and it was sold at a PWCC auction last year for $87,877.77.

It amazes me that someone has the stones to spend $23K & then work on the card.
Too bad it didn't come back w/ a lower (or no) grade

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

It amazes me that someone has the stones to spend $23K & then work on the card.
Too bad it didn't come back w/ a lower (or no) grade

They had the stones because they knew it would upgrade...

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Keith H. Thompson

Team 1: Collectors, Dealers, Investors, AHs, TPAs who publicly admit that just possibly 1% bad apples are getting past

a. the vigilant graders who are doing their best to prevent the hobby contamination of altered cards, but
b. it is the bad evil card doctors at the root of the problem, not us
c. especially not me.

Team 2: Veteran baseball hobbyists who are willing to risk ostracism and access to the Golden Goose because of

a. principles of honesty and integrity, which no longer have relevance in the hobby industry, or
b. just possibly a genuine love of baseball history and its artifacts.

Collectors have been taking sides for some time. About ten years ago Jim Crandall, a passionate and outspoken collector of cards of Grade 7 or higher, convened a meeting at his offices to ask Team 1 about "alterations." Dave Foreman, to his credit, passed around a large hand full of recolored basketball cards with remarkably sharp corners. A naive collector like myself could only gasp. I asked Doug Allen a rhetorical question -- "what percentage of the cards in the average collector's portfolio are altered?" Barry Sloate was the only person in the room asking the really tough questions -- and getting nowhere.

Hi Keith,
Hope you are well. I remember the meeting well, but not the questions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hi Keith,
Hope you are well. I remember the meeting well, but not the questions.

So what was the upshot?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So what was the upshot?

If u cant beat em’...join em’...or leave the hobby?

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So what was the upshot?

Here's what I remember: we met at Jim Crandall's office one evening at his Lehman Bros. office, and since Lehman went under in 2008, I'm guessing it took place in 2007. Attendees included Jim, myself, Doug Allen, Dave Forman, Keith Thompson, Al Crisafulli, Frank Evanov, and Michael Sarno.

I believe the gist of the meeting centered around third party grading, and Dave F. brought some cards he slabbed that day and asked us to all spend some time examining them, and then we were to grade them. Afterwards he told us some were altered, and showed us how hard it is to determine that. None of us did that well getting them all correct.

We had some other topics of discussion but I need a little help with them. I do remember Jim bought something like eight pizzas, and they were delicious. I also got into a discussion with Al and he told me he didn't like the Beatles. I wanted to clock him, but since Al is around 6' 10", I minded my manners (hi Al).

Maybe Keith or anyone else reading this remembers more of the details.

[Peter_Spaeth]

At the time were you asked not to discuss the meeting? Seems odd that neither you nor anyone else posted about it, unless I am not remembering.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

At the time were you asked not to discuss the meeting? Seems odd that neither you nor anyone else posted about it, unless I am not remembering.

I don't recall it being confidential, and I thought the original invitation to the meeting was posted on Net54 by Jim. And I think he said that anyone who wanted was welcome to come. Does anybody remember otherwise? It was twelve years ago and I'm at the point where I do forget things.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I don't recall it being confidential, and I thought the original invitation to the meeting was posted on Net54 by Jim. And I think he said that anyone who wanted was welcome to come. Does anybody remember otherwise? It was eleven years ago and I'm at the point where I do forget things.

I could be forgetting as well.

[barrysloate]

Maybe you can search it? I'm disappointed that I can't remember the details beyond the pizza.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Maybe you can search it? I'm disappointed that I can't remember the details beyond the pizza.

Maybe I can jog your memory,

Pepperoni or Sausage?

Thick or Thin crust?

White or Red sauce?

[1952boyntoncollector]

I remember how happy i was when USA today came out and you get could more info on other teams besides your home team. I think Frank Deford also had a newspaper or something that tried that.

Now i surprised to learn that USA today is still in business...maybe its thriving who knows but i didnt even know they still in business until saw this thread

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's what I remember: we met at Jim Crandall's office one evening at his Lehman Bros. office, and since Lehman went under in 2008, I'm guessing it took place in 2007. Attendees included Jim, myself, Doug Allen, Dave Forman, Keith Thompson, Al Crisafulli, Frank Evanov, and I may have left out one or two others (with my apologies).

I believe the gist of the meeting centered around third party grading, and Dave F. brought some cards he slabbed that day and asked us to all spend some time examining them, and then we were to grade them. Afterwards he told us some were altered, and showed us how hard it is to determine that. None of us did that well getting them all correct.

We had some other topics of discussion but I need a little help with them. I do remember Jim bought something like eight pizzas, and they were delicious. I also got into a discussion with Al and he told me he didn't like the Beatles. I wanted to clock him, but since Al is around 6' 10", I minded my manners (hi Al).

Maybe Keith or anyone else reading this remembers more of the details.

Where were the pizzas ordered from and were they just cheese or did any have toppings. Also were these the type of slices that you had to fold or just stiff. Did you order any of the pizzas 'well done'

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Maybe I can jog your memory,

Pepperoni or Sausage?

Thick or Thin crust?

White or Red sauce?

Regular Neopolitan, no toppings that I can recall (although I can't rule out pepperoni.)

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Where were the pizzas ordered from and were they just cheese or did any have toppings. Also were these the type of slices that you had to fold or just stiff. Did you order any of the pizzas 'well done'

See post #32 for important details.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Regular Neopolitan, no toppings that I can recall (although I can't rule out pepperoni.)

could you fold the piizza...if not how can you say they were delicious.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I could make a joke asking whether certain people there trimmed their slices, but never mind.

[barrysloate]

It was a constructive meeting, and I do remember Doug Allen was kind of on top of the world, bragging about Mastro Auctions. And Dave Forman drove me home that night, which I greatly appreciated.

[Johnny630]

Was the point of the meeting? to show just how difficult it was to catch altered cards ?

[ALR-bishop]

I think USA Today survives now through sales to hotels world wide and cruise ships.

[Al C.risafulli]

I was there, and I did have pizza. Barry's timeline is correct, it was a Net54 thread that I think happened on Thanksgiving Day of 2007 that precipitated the whole thing, and I seem to remember it being really cold outside, so it was likely that winter.

I had a lovely conversation with Barry, who it was a pleasure to meet in person for the very first time (leading off with "I don't like the Beatles" is probably not the best way to make a first impression). I also recall having a chat with Keith, who is a fascinating guy and a pleasure to talk to each of the handful of times I've been fortunate enough to be in his company. Michael Sarno was also there, it was the first time I'd met him and he's turned into a good pal over the years.

If I recall, not only was the meeting not secret, it was pretty widely discussed on the boards. I don't remember how I wound up at the meeting, but I remember being flattered to have been included. Jim was trying to figure out a way to get the bad cards out of the hobby, and while his intentions were good, I remember leaving the meeting thinking that it wasn't going to be possible to fix this from within, because every collector's idea of which people are ethical, and every collector's idea of what was ok to do to a card, was filled with shades of gray.

Aside from getting to be in the esteemed company of Barry and Keith, and meeting a guy (Michael) who turned out to be a longtime friend, as you can see from where we are today, we unfortunately accomplished zero.

-Al

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Maybe you can search it? I'm disappointed that I can't remember the details beyond the pizza.

I did a search for Lehman (location of the meeting) and nothing relevant came up that I could see. Oh well.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I was there, and I did have pizza. Barry's timeline is correct, it was a Net54 thread that I think happened on Thanksgiving Day of 2007 that precipitated the whole thing, and I seem to remember it being really cold outside, so it was likely that winter.

I had a lovely conversation with Barry, who it was a pleasure to meet in person for the very first time (leading off with "I don't like the Beatles" is probably not the best way to make a first impression). I also recall having a chat with Keith, who is a fascinating guy and a pleasure to talk to each of the handful of times I've been fortunate enough to be in his company. Michael Sarno was also there, it was the first time I'd met him and he's turned into a good pal over the years.

If I recall, not only was the meeting not secret, it was pretty widely discussed on the boards. I don't remember how I wound up at the meeting, but I remember being flattered to have been included. Jim was trying to figure out a way to get the bad cards out of the hobby, and while his intentions were good, I remember leaving the meeting thinking that it wasn't going to be possible to fix this from within, because every collector's idea of which people are ethical, and every collector's idea of what was ok to do to a card, was filled with shades of gray.

Aside from getting to be in the esteemed company of Barry and Keith, and meeting a guy (Michael) who turned out to be a longtime friend, as you can see from where we are today, we unfortunately accomplished zero.

-Al

I was thinking Sarno might have been there too, and that would have been my first time meeting him. And yes, grading and authenticating was the gist of it.

Al- I also remembered you said you liked the Ramones over the Clash, and I kind of was leaning toward the Clash as being more important. See how I remember the silly stuff?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Was the point of the meeting? to show just how difficult it was to catch altered cards ?

Yeah it struck me as a subtle way of telling people, hey you can probably get altered cards past TPG's

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Yeah it struck me as a subtle way of telling people, hey you can probably get altered cards past TPG's

Exactly Scott Was thinking the same thing here

Big Money Players get put on notice first.

[Al C.risafulli]

I still prefer the Ramones, though I think "London Calling" is the greatest rock and roll record of all time.

Peter, if I remember this correctly, I think there was a lot of derision around the idea that one person could organize a meeting to "clean up the hobby," particularly one who had a collection filled with high-grade, graded cards. But if you remember, the response to that Thanksgiving Day thread was pretty dramatic, very similar to what's happening today, and Jim had great intentions.

At the time , there was a lot of talk from a variety of guys with a variety of ideas, just like there is today. I remember being skeptical that anything could be accomplished, but being flattered to have been asked - and subsequently being surprised to see a representative from an auction house and a grading company involved with a meeting that I thought was intended to be some collectors discussing what could be done.

At that meeting, and also today, my feeling has been the same: if collectors want the hobby clean, they will stop doing business with bad actors. Stop consigning, stop bidding, stop buying. If there's no money in it, the bad guys will leave the hobby or clean up.

-Al

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Here's an interesting thread from the past, that includes many relevant people in the recent discussion. Page three gets more focused on doctoring.

http://t.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=83073

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I did a search for Lehman (location of the meeting) and nothing relevant came up that I could see. Oh well.

I went to my old desk calendars and under December 12, 2007 it reads "Net54 dinner, 350 Seventh Avenue." Would that be it?

[nolemmings]

Barry, whether the meeting was intended to be confidential or not, I am deeply disappointed that you did not inform this forum that Al does not like the Beatles. That's the kind of info that people ought to know. I just consigned a couple of items to him, and now I have to re-think things. Geez, you think you know somebody.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I still prefer the Ramones, though I think "London Calling" is the greatest rock and roll record of all time.

Peter, if I remember this correctly, I think there was a lot of derision around the idea that one person could organize a meeting to "clean up the hobby," particularly one who had a collection filled with high-grade, graded cards. But if you remember, the response to that Thanksgiving Day thread was pretty dramatic, very similar to what's happening today, and Jim had great intentions.

At the time , there was a lot of talk from a variety of guys with a variety of ideas, just like there is today. I remember being skeptical that anything could be accomplished, but being flattered to have been asked - and subsequently being surprised to see a representative from an auction house and a grading company involved with a meeting that I thought was intended to be some collectors discussing what could be done.

At that meeting, and also today, my feeling has been the same: if collectors want the hobby clean, they will stop doing business with bad actors. Stop consigning, stop bidding, stop buying. If there's no money in it, the bad guys will leave the hobby or clean up.

-Al

Al. a decade after this meeting, I guess the conclusion is inevitable -- collectors as a whole don't really want the hobby clean. Even less so now that so many are investors. And as a whole (with some notable exceptions such as yourself), the industry doesn't want to clean itself up either. I should just give up my own meager efforts because the windmill is going to win. Thanks for the perspective, sobering but necessary.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I

At that meeting, and also today, my feeling has been the same: if collectors want the hobby clean, they will stop doing business with bad actors. Stop consigning, stop bidding, stop buying. If there's no money in it, the bad guys will leave the hobby or clean up.

-Al

This

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Barry, whether the meeting was intended to be confidential or not, I am deeply disappointed that you did not inform this forum that Al does not like the Beatles. That's the kind of info that people ought to know. I just consigned a couple of items to him, and now I have to re-think things. Geez, you think you know somebody.

If Al was half my size, instead of twice my size, we would have had a different outcome.